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RebelYell
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RoP nostalgia

Thu May 05, 2016 12:12 pm

Played a bit RoP again and the battles where really fun and exciting, the results are balanced and the battle event texts are running live during the battle.

How hard would be to get some of this gold imported to WoN?
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Offworlder
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Thu May 05, 2016 5:51 pm

I miss the Spanish Ulcer scenario from the old game...

Still a lot could be improved in the AI routines to get balanced battles

elxaime
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Sat May 07, 2016 8:07 pm

Offworlder wrote:I miss the Spanish Ulcer scenario from the old game...

Still a lot could be improved in the AI routines to get balanced battles


I wish there was a 2-player version of WoN, with a stripped down diplomatic model, complete control of all allies (inciuding minor states), etc. This would be more of a "history on rails" approach with scripted events. But right now it seems you either play single player against an AI that will never be up to snuff, or try to gather a bunch of players for PBEM (always tough even with a smooth-running game) and pray that the patching/updates won't require constant restarts. At least with 2-player you have a reasonable shot at attempting the full campaign. ROP was able to do this, granted on a smaller scale.

I was hoping WoN would use a EAW style diplomacy model, simple but usable, but instead they decided to allow people to play Risk style. I have nothing against this, but there should be options for people who want a more historical simulation of the politics.

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PhilThib
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Mon May 09, 2016 8:25 am

a one-vs-one could be made, this was what we had in the first opus and people complained to it...looks like we'll never manage to please everyone :)
This said, it's a huge work, as it requires to rewrite all events and setups, and probably add more....at the present time, it oculd only be a modder's taks (herculean one !)
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elxaime
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Thu May 19, 2016 7:46 pm

PhilThib wrote:a one-vs-one could be made, this was what we had in the first opus and people complained to it...looks like we'll never manage to please everyone :)
This said, it's a huge work, as it requires to rewrite all events and setups, and probably add more....at the present time, it oculd only be a modder's taks (herculean one !)


Thanks. I hope if you ever simulate another massive war like this you start from the premise of two-player or three player. Then afterwards, it can be amended or modded for more. That is what was done with ROP, EAW and RUS and it seemed to work well.

I realize having one person controlling each country is ideal, but I suspect you will have far fewer games actually being played if you have to gather seven people who are punctual and committed. Even in two-player, you still get lots of opponents who simply disappear or quit. I would guess the completion ratio of a seven player WON is going to be miniscule. And I would guess far more two-player/three-player ROP, RUS and EAW games get finished. Just being practical and going from long experience as a PBEM wargamer.

And I would make it so the players can control all allied countries, including minors. Again, this is a reasonable compromise. Lots of folks say having your AI-controlled allies do what they want is more "realistic" but it seems just as unrealistic given the current propensity of the AI to do wacky things. So it is a choice between sets of unrealism, and IMO there is less teeth grinding if you go the player control route.

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PhilThib
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Fri May 20, 2016 10:08 am

The very first Ageod games (and the first Napoleon's Campaigns) had a one-side-has-all design which worked fine for most aspects. Of course, it may lead to some issues that are difficult to solve (e.g. recruits/assets are 'per side', so you could have vast Russian manpower feed British troop ranks and huge British money used to raise endless Austrian or other troops, etc... reason why we did not want much production in the old one)...not easy to strike a balance.
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RebelYell
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Fri May 20, 2016 1:20 pm

PhilThib wrote:The very first Ageod games (and the first Napoleon's Campaigns) had a one-side-has-all design which worked fine for most aspects. Of course, it may lead to some issues that are difficult to solve (e.g. recruits/assets are 'per side', so you could have vast Russian manpower feed British troop ranks and huge British money used to raise endless Austrian or other troops, etc... reason why we did not want much production in the old one)...not easy to strike a balance.


Any possibilty to get the live event texts running during a battle?
This is a actually a feature that would do wonders for those new players that dont know what is happening under the hood and everything remains to them abstracted.
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Duke76
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Fri May 20, 2016 2:59 pm

RebelYell wrote:Any possibilty to get the live event texts running during a battle?
This is a actually a feature that would do wonders for those new players that dont know what is happening under the hood and everything remains to them abstracted.


It's about the well known "issue" of the lack of immersion and clearness of the battle result screen, I just hope one day the devs will finally understand that ... :innocent:

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Durk
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Sat May 21, 2016 3:37 am

Hmm, I guess I would suggest just rerunning turns to see the range of possible outcomes. This is not chess. There are lots of variables. The range of potential outcomes always encourages me to take great risks, but for more cautious players, there are safety moves.

elxaime
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Sat May 21, 2016 6:32 pm

For those interested, I have cooked up some 2-player WON House Rules, which the players would need to collaborate to implement as they go. The idea is to place some artificial, but historically-based, restrictions that would guide players.

WARS OF NAPOLEON TWO PLAYER HOUSE RULES

ANTI-FRENCH COALITIONS
Until January 1813, no more than two of the three powers Austria, Prussia and Russia can voluntarily be at war with France at the same time; special national rules may provide exceptions

OPTIONS
The “historical” choice must always be taken.

FRANCE
• France controls/has alliance with Spain until one of the conditions to shift control/alliance to Britain is met; France may temporarily control Austria and Prussia if the War and Peace Russian campaign option is invoked
• France controls (but may not formally ally) with the Ottomans
• After the Treaties of Pressburg and Tilsit, France may not initiate a new war with Austria, Prussia or Russia unless or until:
- France has at some point occupied both Madrid and Lisbon simultaneously OR
- On or after January 1812
• War and Peace – after the Treaty of Tilsit, if Prussia and Austria have each been defeated at least once, if France decides to declare war on Russia again France may declare “War and Peace” to be in effect and temporarily take control of both Austria and Prussia as allies. While controlled, each power may only be at war with Russia and are limited to sending forces only into Russia, and these may not exceed fifty combat elements. While War and Peace is in effect, France has the remaining balance of that year (until the end of December) to control both Moscow and St. Petersburg, which will force a permanent Russian surrender. If only one of the two cities (or neither) are French controlled by the end of the current year, France is deemed to have lost the Russian campaign and both Austria and Prussia return to British control. Each must withdraw all their forces to within their borders, taking no action until this is complete, and returning to full British control once this is accomplished.
• Automatic victory triggers
- Occupation of St. Petersburg, Moscow, Madrid and Paris at the same time OR
- Occupation of London and Paris at any time that France is not at war with a major power OR
- Occupation of London and Paris at any time that France also holds Madrid

BRITAIN
• Britain controls Austria, Russia and Prussia, plus Spain when/if certain conditions are met
• More than ten combat elements of British land forces may not land in mainland Spain or Portugal unless/until France or Spain controls Lisbon or May 1808, whichever is sooner
• After the Treaty of Pressburg, Britain may declare war on the Ottomans if Ottoman land forces occupy any North African or Middle East region outside the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans will offer peace if Constantinople is placed under blockade or siege by British forces, with the terms being Ottoman withdrawal of any North Africa or Middle East forces back to within their starting borders. A British-Ottoman war has no effect on a Russia-Ottoman war or presence of Ottoman forces in the Balkans or Caucasus
• British fleets may not enter the Baltic while the Treaty of Tilsit is in effect unless Denmark is neutral or pro-British
• Britain may not make trade agreements with Russia between the start of the Treaty of Tilsit and January 1812
• Britain may not make trade agreements with Prussia until after January 1810

PRUSSIA
• May not initiate a war with France until October 1806
• Prussia may declare war on France in October 1806 (one time opportunity) regardless of coalition size restrictions
• After the Treaty of Tilsit Prussia may not initiate a new war with France unless
- Russia and Spain are at war with France and both the Grand Duchy of Warsaw and Confederation of the Rhine have been created OR
- France has lost a War and Peace campaign and no French units are currently present on Russian soil OR
- Spain is at war with France and France controls no objective cities in Spain
• On or after January 1813, Prussia may declare war on France at any time regardless of other conditions

AUSTRIA
• If the Treaties of Pressburg and Tilsit are in force, Austria may not again initiate a war with France until January 1809 subject to the following condition
- Spain is at war with France and any one of three of the Kingdom of Italy, Confederation of the Rhine and Grand Duchy of Poland have been created OR
- Spain is at war with France and France controls no objective cities in Spain
If either of these conditions are fulfilled, Austria has a one-time opportunity from January 1809 through January 1810 to declare war on France, regardless of coalition size restrictions
• On or after January 1813, Austria may only declare war on France provided both Russia and Prussia are also at war with France
• On or after August 1813, Austria may declare war on France at any time regardless of other conditions

RUSSIA
• If the Treaties of Pressburg and Tilsit are in force, Russia may not again initiate a war with France until January 1812, subject to the following conditions
- the Grand Duchy of Poland has been created, Spain is at war with France and
Russia has annexed Finland from Sweden and Moldova from the Ottomans OR
- Spain is at war with France and France controls no objective cities in Spain
• If Russia is defeated in a War and Peace campaign, Russia must sue for peace and remain at peace with France for the remainder of the game.
• On or after January 1813, Russia may declare war on France at any time regardless of other conditions
• Russia at peace with France may launch its own wars with Sweden, the Ottomans or Persia under certain conditions. Russia must end these wars as soon as possible if it goes to war with France
- After the Treaty of Tilsit, Russia receives a one-time opportunity to attack Sweden. France and Britain may not be allies of Sweden and, if so, must break that alliance. Russia may end the war with an annexation of Finland, but must end the war if France and Russia are at war. Russia must attempt make peace and annex Finland once all Swedish towns in Finland are Russian-controlled. Russia must offer a white peace if Swedish forces ever place St. Petersburg under siege.
- After the Treaty of Pressburg, Russia receives a one-time opportunity to attack the Ottomans that lasts until January 1808. Russia may offer peace only if/when they control all of Moldova and/or Batum and Kars. The Ottomans may accept by offering cession of Moldova, but must accept and offer Moldova if the Russians control all of Moldova and/or Batum and Kars plus Silistra, Varna and Ruschuk. Russia may make peace if the Ottomans control any three of Vinnytsa, Nemiroz, Odessa, Fort St. Peter, Fort St. Dmitri, Nikolaev or Ochakov. Russia must make peace if the Ottomans control more than three of the above locations or Sebastopol or if they are at war again with France.
- After the Treaty of Pressburg, if Russian forces control Erevan, they must declare war on Persia. The Russians may offer peace if Tabriz is taken but may accept a Persian peace offer at any time.

SPAIN
• Spain begins controlled and formally allied to France
• Spain or France may not enter Portugal until either July 1807 or the Treaty of Tilsit is in effect, whichever is soonest
• Spain may not attack Gibraltar unless/until Spain or France controls Lisbon or Britain has landed more than ten combat elements of troops in Spain
• Spain shifts control (and alliance) to Britain in May 1808 if French troops are in Spain/Portugal and Joseph Bonaparte has been placed on the throne of Spain. Spain will remain controlled by Britain for the rest of the game. If this condition is not met, Spain may still shift control (and alliance) to Britain at any time on or after May 1808 if Britain controls Lisbon and any three of: Santa Cruz de Tenerife, Santo Domingo, Havana, Buenos Aires, Montevideo, Port Mahon or Palma

OTTOMANS
• The Ottomans are French-controlled but are not treated as formally allied. No more than ten combat elements of French land troops can be present on Ottoman soil at one time (fleets not subject to these restrictions)
• Ottoman land forces are restricted to the Balkans, North Africa, Middle East and the Caucasus
• After the Treaty of Pressburg, but before the Treaty of Tilsit, the Ottomans may attack Russia. This option ends if it is not exercised before the Treaty of Tilsit is signed. The Ottomans may make peace if/when Russia controls all of Moldova and/or Batum and Kars, and must offer cessation of Moldova to Russia. The Ottomans must offer peace if the Russians control all of the above plus Silistra, Varna and Ruschuk, offering cessation of Moldova to Russia. The Russians may offer peace if the Ottomans control any three of Vinnytsa, Nemiroz, Odessa, Fort St. Peter, Fort St. Dmitri, Nikolaev or Ochakov. Russia must accept if the Ottomans control more than three of the above locations or Sebastopol or the Russians are at war again with France. If France and Russia are at war, the Ottomans must accept any Russian offer of peace, and in this case are not required to cede Moldova.

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RebelYell
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Fri May 27, 2016 8:18 pm

Duke76 wrote:It's about the well known "issue" of the lack of immersion and clearness of the battle result screen, I just hope one day the devs will finally understand that ... :innocent:


I dont think the battle result screen needs much improvement, I am talking about the live battles themselves.
If there was a text running during battle telling what dvision is attacking what enemy division it would bring a lot of immersion this was a feature in ROP.
Naturally this would mean using the long delay in battle animation so you could follow it, most would use it only in major battles.
I dont know how the battle resolution has been changed in WON but ROP and ACW had good results so going back would not be a shame.
Masters of the Channel for six hours, we are masters of the world.

ncc1701e
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Re:

Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:26 pm

PhilThib wrote:a one-vs-one could be made, this was what we had in the first opus and people complained to it...looks like we'll never manage to please everyone :)
This said, it's a huge work, as it requires to rewrite all events and setups, and probably add more....at the present time, it oculd only be a modder's taks (herculean one !)


What are the technical knowledges necessary to do this? Any programmation required? Any guide you could pinpoint to?

Thanks

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PhilThib
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Re: RoP nostalgia

Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:09 am

Apart from handling a huge excel file, no specific technical knowledge. You just need to understand the various working of AGE engine (movement, supply, battle) and that will do, with a sound dose of logic...and a little help from us.

Taillebois
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Re: RoP nostalgia

Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:00 am

Is this nostalgia for Rise of Prussia or Napoleon's Campaigns as some replies mention Spanish Ulcer scenario - although some 300 turns it rather stretches the definition of scenario?

Anyway, I just accept that in Ageod games you are Napoleon unable to intervene in what Grouchy is doing on the right wing. Or you just get a report of a win or loss elsewhere in the war.

I must play more RoP as some say they like it best of the games.

Perhaps some of you could try Campaigns On The Danube which is to my mind the best game that puts you in Napoleon's position. You send orders that may take hours or days to arrive, if they arrive at all; you have to try and co-ordinate your corps to arrive at the right place on time. The game should be in the Matrix sale as it is now quite old. There is a good AAR on the forum.

veji1
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Re: RoP nostalgia

Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:16 pm

Taillebois wrote:Is this nostalgia for Rise of Prussia or Napoleon's Campaigns as some replies mention Spanish Ulcer scenario - although some 300 turns it rather stretches the definition of scenario?

Anyway, I just accept that in Ageod games you are Napoleon unable to intervene in what Grouchy is doing on the right wing. Or you just get a report of a win or loss elsewhere in the war.

I must play more RoP as some say they like it best of the games.

Perhaps some of you could try Campaigns On The Danube which is to my mind the best game that puts you in Napoleon's position. You send orders that may take hours or days to arrive, if they arrive at all; you have to try and co-ordinate your corps to arrive at the right place on time. The game should be in the Matrix sale as it is now quite old. There is a good AAR on the forum.



That was a great game indeed. The John Tiller games also remain a fantastic base for what Napolenic operational wargames could be... In terms of sheer immersion nothing still comes close to what the Talonsoft Napoleon series cold offer...

ncc1701e
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Re: RoP nostalgia

Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:29 pm

PhilThib wrote:Apart from handling a huge excel file, no specific technical knowledge. You just need to understand the various working of AGE engine (movement, supply, battle) and that will do, with a sound dose of logic...and a little help from us.


Thank you. Just to be sure I am understanding correctly, with this huge excel file, may I also act on how the AI is creating its corps/armies and improve the computer opponent's stacks? Will it be the same for AI creation/production of units? Could it be improved by excel file?

Sorry for the basic questions but I am discovering things here. :hat:

ncc1701e
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Re: RoP nostalgia

Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:40 pm

Nevermind, I have just found the AGE wiki. Plenty of topics to read. I have found about AI scripting, modding events... Not sure to have found anything yet about decision cards, is it possible to modify or add some?

One last thing, will it be possible to change the Diplomatic engine by adding more options that will be reflected automatically in the graphical interface?

Thanks

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