MarshalJean
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Such a shame...

Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:53 am

I just want to say how it's such a shame that this game has the problems it does. In so many ways, it is masterpiece...but in so many other ways, a nightmare. It's so beautiful, first of all. And it's so immersive. The game just invites you into the Napoleonic era. For me, it can feel like I'm stepping back into that time with all the leaders, all the recruitment possibilities, the political and administrative decisions, even the diplomatic options. There's no other game doing anything close to this for the Napoleonic period.

But the absolutely unsolvable diplomatic problems are a primary plague, as so many know. But even for die-hards like me, who learned how to use the script system to immediately end repetitive, unrealistic wars, or to beef up the AI's building program, or make sure Nation A gets a realistic and challenging peace settlement from Nation B at the end of a war...the game STILL figures out how to chase me away. I can out-script the un-fixable diplomatic logic, but I can't fix a game that has become so slow, that freezes now every turn, and now crashes so often, that I can't advance forward.

So, like so many others, I have to leave a game that I wanted to love so BADLY! Truly, there's nothing else like it in terms of its scope. I just wish it had worked.

And I hope that you AGEOD gents figure out how to produce another Napoleonic game with the new engine. Please don't give up on this period! Even though another reiteration will have to have a completely different diplomatic engine (2 sides, event-driven, I'd guess), please don't take away everything else that made this game great.

Anyway, this is good-bye, for now.

MJ

elxaime
General
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:57 pm

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:07 am

MarshalJean wrote:I just want to say how it's such a shame that this game has the problems it does. In so many ways, it is masterpiece...but in so many other ways, a nightmare. It's so beautiful, first of all. And it's so immersive. The game just invites you into the Napoleonic era. For me, it can feel like I'm stepping back into that time with all the leaders, all the recruitment possibilities, the political and administrative decisions, even the diplomatic options. There's no other game doing anything close to this for the Napoleonic period.

But the absolutely unsolvable diplomatic problems are a primary plague, as so many know. But even for die-hards like me, who learned how to use the script system to immediately end repetitive, unrealistic wars, or to beef up the AI's building program, or make sure Nation A gets a realistic and challenging peace settlement from Nation B at the end of a war...the game STILL figures out how to chase me away. I can out-script the un-fixable diplomatic logic, but I can't fix a game that has become so slow, that freezes now every turn, and now crashes so often, that I can't advance forward.

So, like so many others, I have to leave a game that I wanted to love so BADLY! Truly, there's nothing else like it in terms of its scope. I just wish it had worked.

And I hope that you AGEOD gents figure out how to produce another Napoleonic game with the new engine. Please don't give up on this period! Even though another reiteration will have to have a completely different diplomatic engine (2 sides, event-driven, I'd guess), please don't take away everything else that made this game great.

Anyway, this is good-bye, for now.

MJ


The designer has more or less admitted he'd do it differently next time, with a two-sided campaign game similar to End All Wars. They seem to be taking this approach with the upcoming Wars of Succession title. A two-sided game streamlines issues and, although you lose some of the unpredictability of the AI-driven diplomacy with reliance on a more scripted event-tree approach, you gain back more of a sense that history is being simulated. Much easier to design decent AI also. They may salvage this with a future WON expansion that adds a two-sided campaign, which could indeed turn this into the true gem it could be.

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PhilThib
Posts: 13705
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:21 pm
Location: Meylan (France)

Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:02 am

MarshalJean wrote:I just want to say how it's such a shame that this game has the problems it does. In so many ways, it is masterpiece...but in so many other ways, a nightmare. It's so beautiful, first of all. And it's so immersive. The game just invites you into the Napoleonic era. For me, it can feel like I'm stepping back into that time with all the leaders, all the recruitment possibilities, the political and administrative decisions, even the diplomatic options. There's no other game doing anything close to this for the Napoleonic period.

But the absolutely unsolvable diplomatic problems are a primary plague, as so many know. But even for die-hards like me, who learned how to use the script system to immediately end repetitive, unrealistic wars, or to beef up the AI's building program, or make sure Nation A gets a realistic and challenging peace settlement from Nation B at the end of a war...the game STILL figures out how to chase me away. I can out-script the un-fixable diplomatic logic, but I can't fix a game that has become so slow, that freezes now every turn, and now crashes so often, that I can't advance forward.

So, like so many others, I have to leave a game that I wanted to love so BADLY! Truly, there's nothing else like it in terms of its scope. I just wish it had worked.

And I hope that you AGEOD gents figure out how to produce another Napoleonic game with the new engine. Please don't give up on this period! Even though another reiteration will have to have a completely different diplomatic engine (2 sides, event-driven, I'd guess), please don't take away everything else that made this game great.

Anyway, this is good-bye, for now.

MJ


Sorry to hear that. One of the lessons we learnt with the old engine is that it is not tailored for big multi-nation games (PON, WON) as it tends to slow down very much. For some of you, it even goes so far as complete freezes. We must be very careful in the future for that.

As for WON, it would require a major effort to redesign it as a 2-sided game, but this is feasible. The way Altaris is currently modding it for Wars of Successions proves it. Unfortunately, the same issue plagues us as always, time vs ressources.
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Pocus
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Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:59 am

The best way to help is to show a savegame with a precise, unique situation which is buggy, something clear not a loose 'this turn has many problems, just check it'. With a description of the issue, we can inspect the particular code and see how to improve or debug it.

But engine slowdown is not something we can fix easily.
Image


Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

veji1
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1271
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:27 pm

Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:09 am

I agree with MarshalJean as I have said it previously.. this game will remain a very painful experience because of the "what if".. Only Napoleon 1813 by Empire back in 1999 elicited so much hope and so much despair ! Too bad because the chrome (units, leaders, map, etc) is superbissimo.

I look forward to war of successions, and hope too that one day a good napoleonic game can be had. Good luck AGEOD with the next few games, focus on your strengths (super duper good immersiveness of your games, historical knowledge, solid AI when it is focused on operational warfare and not burdened with excessively complex stack building issues) and you'll make great games.

cheers.

MarshalJean
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Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:49 pm

Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:54 pm

Pocus wrote:The best way to help is to show a savegame with a precise, unique situation which is buggy, something clear not a loose 'this turn has many problems, just check it'. With a description of the issue, we can inspect the particular code and see how to improve or debug it.

But engine slowdown is not something we can fix easily.



Thanks, Pocus. I thought about posting a Saved game (although, admittedly, I've still not mastered how to post that effectively on here). But, as you said, I assumed it would be unsolvable. The game's lag is just huge, now. I'm at the end of 1808. I've fired Pressburg, Tilsit, Schonbrunn, created Warsaw, and annexed a few satellites (but not all). However, I've applied every patch released on top of one another without starting a new game. As promised, the patches have been save game compatible, but the lag on the game has gotten exponentially worse...especially after this last August patch. I've now experienced my second crash in 1808, whereas the game never crashed before. My computer runs extremely hot with this game, now, and my computer is only two years old and had the latest hardware, RAM, graphics card, at the time. Anyway, I've just blamed it on all the calculations Athena is trying to do with the diplomacy and all the separate army moves it is trying to plot as the AI fights itself in various wars while fighting me....and all the builds it is making for each separate nation, etc. etc. Truly, it is a masterpiece and a worthy effort. But it's the look and feel of a Ferrari with the engine of a Model T. It just can't handle it.

rwenstrup
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Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:10 am
Location: Cleveland, OH USA

Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:10 pm

Since this is Napoleon game two... The two sided game is an excellent idea in my mind... and selling as a dlc for cost coverage makes sense... just fix it!

rwenstrup
Sergeant
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:10 am
Location: Cleveland, OH USA

Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:16 pm

Always felt Birth of America was the best game... simple feel for a strategic military conflict without unnecessary complexity. Core, key decision-making... Love your games... have them all... and always buy them as soon as they come out...

veji1
AGEod Guard of Honor
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Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:27 pm

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:11 pm

rwenstrup wrote:Since this is Napoleon game two... The two sided game is an excellent idea in my mind... and selling as a dlc for cost coverage makes sense... just fix it!


I think to be honest it'd be very hard to fix... better off injecting the data (unit names, leaders, etc...) in a new game such as war of succession. Actually it would probably work better as a mod for war of succession using the data, rather than try to fix this game. Sadly. But I look forward to war of successions.

elxaime
General
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:57 pm

Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:13 pm

veji1 wrote:I think to be honest it'd be very hard to fix... better off injecting the data (unit names, leaders, etc...) in a new game such as war of succession. Actually it would probably work better as a mod for war of succession using the data, rather than try to fix this game. Sadly. But I look forward to war of successions.


That's an interesting thought. A new Napoleonic two-sided campaign using the WON map - but sold as a DLC to Wars of Succession.

diabolique..

Baris
AGEod Guard of Honor
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Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:14 pm

Only downside would be same pool for manpower, morale for different factions. It can be not 'historical' for EAW sometimes.

veji1
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Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:40 pm

Baris wrote:Only downside would be same pool for manpower, morale for different factions. It can be not 'historical' for EAW sometimes.


It would be suboptimal, but I honestly think it would be easier to do than fixing the hydra that WON is.

vaalen
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:48 pm

Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:16 pm

This is so sad... The game really is magnificent in its color and scope. i truly think that with the patching that has been done, you can save it by making it a two player game, as the diplomatic area is where most of the problems lie. The inability of the AI to build good armies and use them well is another problem. Script the force building for the AI, and you solve this. The AI in Campaigns of Napoleon was very good, I think it could be helpful in the two player game.

Seriously, too much work and creativity and love has gone into this game to just abandon it, without giving the two player game a chance. I tryly believe that following this approach would result in the greatest Napoleonic game ever made, a joy to play and just to experience. Even with its flaws, nothing has made the Napoleonic era come alive like this. PLease do not abandon, it, I beg you.

Regards, Vaalen

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Pierro_F
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Location: Montélimar, (France)

Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:31 am

Love this great game...and I support this desire. A 2 side DLC will be the solution and I will pay for it and support for ever the AGEOD team.

witchking77
Civilian
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:07 am

Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:11 am

vaalen wrote:This is so sad... The game really is magnificent in its color and scope. i truly think that with the patching that has been done, you can save it by making it a two player game, as the diplomatic area is where most of the problems lie. The inability of the AI to build good armies and use them well is another problem. Script the force building for the AI, and you solve this. The AI in Campaigns of Napoleon was very good, I think it could be helpful in the two player game.

Seriously, too much work and creativity and love has gone into this game to just abandon it, without giving the two player game a chance. I tryly believe that following this approach would result in the greatest Napoleonic game ever made, a joy to play and just to experience. Even with its flaws, nothing has made the Napoleonic era come alive like this. PLease do not abandon, it, I beg you.

Regards, Vaalen


I completely agree, this game has a great potential. I will immediately buy a two-side dlc. Please AGEOD continue to work on this game.

elxaime
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Posts: 514
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Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:11 pm

Solution: design a new WON off the Wars of Succession model...and call it WON 2. It will hurt to give up - for now - on the vast potentials of original WON (if they'd worked). But it will be a successful move commercially. A WON 2 playing off their original "easy to play hard to master" approach to titles like Birth of America will be a hit, as well as much more accessible to newcomers.

veji1
AGEod Guard of Honor
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Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:27 pm

Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:58 pm

I honestly think that it would be easier time and programmation wise to build a War of Napoleon mod on the war of succession engine than to try to reverse engineer WON into a simpler 2 side game : the data and historical info largely exists based on WON, whereas trying to change WON into a 2 side game is opening a box and try to find which wires to fix, etc.. A lot more difficult. My two cents really, but the WON map used for war of successions is there, the 2 sides model can then be applied to many many conflicts from the french war of religions all the way to the 1870 war. It just means that these will wargames , not sandbox global games.

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PhilThib
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Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:51 am

Yes, it just requires manpower (volunteers) and time ....
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veji1
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Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:58 am

PhilThib wrote:Yes, it just requires manpower (volunteers) and time ....


I know, but first thing first : We are counting on you to make War of Successions a great, stable, moddable and fun wargame. If the engine works smoothly and quickly enough, than in a second time I am sure something could be done to make the Napoleonic time period work on it. But we are not there yet !

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PhilThib
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Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:57 am

Indeed.... by the way, WSS beta should be starting anytime soon this week.
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veji1
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Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:59 am

PhilThib wrote:Indeed.... by the way, WSS beta should be starting anytime soon this week.


Cool, good luck to you guys.

veji1
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1271
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:27 pm

Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:09 am

BTW it's probably time to open a subforum, because it's hard to get conversations going on the very moderated "news from Ageod" part of the forum. cheers.

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