Satellite Nations and Expeditionary Forces

[vaalen]

The suggestion has been made that the two player DLC be Multiplayer only.

This is absolutely unacceptable to me. Many of us only play single player, and we should not be abandoned. I cannot believe that AGEOD would abandon us on this game, and on the coming DLC. Waiting for a further patch for single player discriminates against single players and is not acceptable.

The vanilla game is simply not acceptable in its current form, and we single players have just as much right to a better working game as those who play multi player. And it can be done.

There are two major problems that are brought out in this thread.

First, the AI declaring war too often, and when it makes no sense in a historical view, and when the AI is militarily weak.
This did not happen during the period. After Austrias initial defeat in 1805, it did not declare war against France until 1809, when France was embroiled in Spain. After the second Austrian defeat, Austria remained at peace with France until 1813, after the French army had been destroyed in Russia.

Prussia was so crushed by France in the first war that they did not fight France again until they were in effect liberated by the Russians in 1813, again after the French army was destroyed in Russia.

Neither of these nations fought wars with minor countries while they were at peace with France.

Russia made peace with France in 1807, and did not fight France again until 1812. Even then, it was France who attacked Russia. Russia did fight a war with Sweden while at peace with France.

The two player game, in its single player version, can and should adopt a more historical war entry mechanism for these nations, perhaps by scripted event, once certain conditions are fulfilled. Certainly this can be done, and has been done, in other AGEOD games.

The second major problem is the poor unit construction habits of the AI, and the AI going to war with totally inadequate forces. In PON, the AI was able to build and maintain large and formidable land forces, and to mass them in large stacks. It did not modernize its fleets, but that has no relevance to a war covering a ten year period only. Certainly if the AI in PON can build strong forces and concentrate them, the same could be done here.

An alternative would be to script the building of AI forces for the major non player nations, so they go to war with strong forces. Austria had rebuilt and improved its armies prior to declaring war in 1809 and 1813. Prussia developed the landwehr system while at peace with France, and had modernized ists military, and was able to field substantial forces in 1813. Russia also learned from its mistakes, and the huge army it fielded in 1812 had been reorganized into strong corps and divisions that were quite formidable.

This can be achieved by scripted events, which would ensure that AI nations would have appropriate, historical forces when they join the allies.

[Offworlder]

The suggestion has been made that the two player DLC be Multiplayer only.

....

The second major problem is the poor unit construction habits of the AI, and the AI going to war with totally inadequate forces. In PON, the AI was able to build and maintain large and formidable land forces, and to mass them in large stacks. It did not modernize its fleets, but that has no relevance to a war covering a ten year period only. Certainly if the AI in PON can build strong forces and concentrate them, the same could be done here.

An alternative would be to script the building of AI forces for the major non player nations, so they go to war with strong forces. Austria had rebuilt and improved its armies prior to declaring war in 1809 and 1813. Prussia developed the landwehr system while at peace with France, and had modernized ists military, and was able to field substantial forces in 1813. Russia also learned from its mistakes, and the huge army it fielded in 1812 had been reorganized into strong corps and divisions that were quite formidable.

This can be achieved by scripted events, which would ensure that AI nations would have appropriate, historical forces when they join the allies.

Agreed. There must be a link between rebuilding armies and DoWs. Otherwise the game becomes a series of chores - coming and going to Berlin and Vienna for the French for example...

[vaalen]

Agreed. There must be a link between rebuilding armies and DoWs. Otherwise the game becomes a series of chores - coming and going to Berlin and Vienna for the French for example...

Well said. After the first defeat of Prussia and Austria, the annual journey to Berlin and Vienna is quite tiresome, especially since the weak forces used by the AI have no chance to defeat anything. But this can be fixed.

[Nappy]

The suggestion has been made that the two player DLC be Multiplayer only.

This is absolutely unacceptable to me. Many of us only play single player, and we should not be abandoned. I cannot believe that AGEOD would abandon us on this game, and on the coming DLC. Waiting for a further patch for single player discriminates against single players and is not acceptable.

We single players have just as much right to a better working game as those who play multi player. And it can be done.

I abbreviated much of this but the general gist of it...I heartily second that!!!!

[elxaime]

The suggestion has been made that the two player DLC be Multiplayer only. This is absolutely unacceptable to me.

On second thought, I agree with you. Maybe it is easier to do a good AI for a heavily-scripted two player and it won't take that long. Not sure, as I have never coded an AI.

My assumption is that a two-player AI could be much more limited. Scripted choices and RGD would handle everything but the combat. So it would just be AI for a side to make its political/economic scripted choices, AI for making RGD decisions, then they could use the same combat and movement AI. So maybe it is not as labor intensive after all. Over time, assuming they added enough variety in the scripting decision trees, you could have an AI that behaved strategically. The scripting could take care of the force organization issues, since the units would appear already organized in divisions and armies. Much of the time, minor forces can be accounted for by auto-garrisons and fixed forces in the capitals.

[vaalen]

On second thought, I agree with you. Maybe it is easier to do a good AI for a heavily-scripted two player and it won't take that long. Not sure, as I have never coded an AI.

My assumption is that a two-player AI could be much more limited. Scripted choices and RGD would handle everything but the combat. So it would just be AI for a side to make its political/economic scripted choices, AI for making RGD decisions, then they could use the same combat and movement AI. So maybe it is not as labor intensive after all. Over time, assuming they added enough variety in the scripting decision trees, you could have an AI that behaved strategically. The scripting could take care of the force organization issues, since the units would appear already organized in divisions and armies. Much of the time, minor forces can be accounted for by auto-garrisons and fixed forces in the capitals.

Very interesting ideas, and I believe they would work.

There are other Ageod games, all with just two sides, where the AI builds forces intelligently, organizes them well, and uses good strategy and force management. Some of these games do create scripted forces for the AI by event, and it works well.

Hannibal, Terror of Rome is a prime example. The AI, whether Carthaginian or Roman, builds strong, well balanced armies and fleets, and uses them very effectively. Some forces are created by events, which fire if certain pre conditions are met. Diplomacy is handled by events that fire if certain pre conditions are met, though there is a percentage chance of them appearing, and they do not always appear on the same date. They often require EP points to be used. For example, taking certain areas in southern Italy can cause Capua to join the Carthaginians, with a small army. The same mechanism can lead to a series of events that cause the great city of Syracuse to also join the Carthaginians. However, these events will not fire unless the preconditions are met, so they are responsive to what actually happens in the game. This is a kind of diplomacy which never has absurd results.

This system works perfectly, and provides great historical flavor. Playing the AI in this game is a real challenge, if you set the AI to lieutenant or higher. I was defeated several times, until I learned the fine details of logistics and some other details.

There are similar events in WON, also requiring pre conditions and EP points, yet it does not work as well because of the problems with the Diplomacy system and the inability of the AI to build and organize good forces.

A potential, though drastic solution, would be to just remove the current diplomacy system and go back to the older AGEOD system of events firing when pre conditions are met. For example, if the French meet certain conditions in the initial war with Austria, the Pressburg treaty event fires, as is currently the case. Austria and France are at peace. Austria does not reenter the war until a certain period of time has passed, at least two years or more, and France suffers major defeats, such as failing to put down the Spanish insurgency within a certain period of time, as happened historically. When Austria reenters the war, it has scripted, well organized military forces that are a major threat to the French.

Similarly, once the French conquer Prussia and the Treaty of Tilsit fires, Prussian cannot declare war on anyone until Berlin is taken by the Russians or some other enemy of France. Once this happens, however, Prussia receives a scripted army that is organized into corps an divisions, with a large amount of Landwehr, as happened historically.

To prevent the French player from winning the game just by avoiding the pre conditions, France would be required to conquer Russia to win, sometime after the end of the first war with Russia. No conquest of Russia, no French victory. A lack of French success in such a war would be a triggering event for Austria to re enter the war, and for other negative events for the French.

Just an idea.

[veji1]

Am sick and tired of the whole exp force not working.. just had Nassau and Baden accept lending me forces and... nothing. All the while I watch those minors keep building arty.. something really is seriously f***** up in this whole aspect of the game.

[veji1]

just happened with Wurtemberg too ! god damnit. Why on earth is the early bavaria exp force thing the only one to reliably work ! it's exasperating close to 8 months after having bought the game to feel like an early beta tester !

[PhilThib]

Am sick and tired of the whole exp force not working.. just had Nassau and Baden accept lending me forces and... nothing. All the while I watch those minors keep building arty.. something really is seriously f***** up in this whole aspect of the game.

Did you make a save of when this happened, and the turn before. Pocus needs it to check what is wrong

[Offworlder]

A really weird thing seems to happen as well. Aside from the Bavarians, sometimes a minor is more accommodating to French requests if they are not at a 100 level of agreement. I've seen it twice with 2 different states namely Hessen and Saxony. The former I got them to become my allies before the creation of Westphalia, and they were at around 76 or so approval, but gave me virtually their whole army (not bad as there were some 9 assorted brigades of infantry). With the Saxons it also happened as soon as I turned them into allies and they gave me the corps sized army at the first try.


Having said that, then both were reluctuant to give me any more troops, even if they actually produced more. BTW, maybe it is time to put a depot in whatever the capital city of Hessen is at the beginning as they also often wither because of low supplies.

On a similar vein, why not put Brunswick as an ally of Prussia at the beginning of the game? They were in fact allies (the Duke actually commanded the largest part of the Prussian Army at Auerstadt) and the heir of the Duke went to fight for the Brits ('the Black Brunswickers'). If I'm not wrong, Brunswick itself was overrun by the French and forcibly incorporated in Westphalia. As I understand it, if the state is occupied, it would still form part of Westphalia on its creation in the conditions as they are. It would also avoid having the Duke running around commanding Westphalian troops...

[veji1]

Did you make a save of when this happened, and the turn before. Pocus needs it to check what is wrong

what saves do you need, it just occurred again with Baden and Wurtemberg. It is, and sorry for the harsh words, really unacceptable close to 8 months after the game came out that this sort of basic issue isn't sorted...

Tell me what are the exact docs needed and I'll try to find a way to upload them (where should I do this if they are too big ?).

[PhilThib]

The devs need to reproduce what is going wrong and how. To do so, they need at least 2-3 turns of save, starting with the turn when you send the request, and then next or 2 next turns, to check what the engine is doing with it. It seems the request is processed ok but the execution fails and we need to understand where it comes from.

[veji1]

The devs need to reproduce what is going wrong and how. To do so, they need at least 2-3 turns of save, starting with the turn when you send the request, and then next or 2 next turns, to check what the engine is doing with it. It seems the request is processed ok but the execution fails and we need to understand where it comes from.

Fair enough, what do you need though, in terms of folders and stuff.

[PhilThib]

Just zip the Saves folder and make sure the 3 consecutive turns are saved.

[veji1]

Just zip the Saves folder and make sure the 3 consecutive turns are saved.

so I just zipped backup 1 to 3 which are, I suppose, the last 3 turns.[ATTACH]39405[/ATTACH][ATTACH]39406[/ATTACH][ATTACH]39407[/ATTACH]

[veji1]

btw if this can't be properly fixed, it would be great to have some sort of forced command one could use in the console to circumvent this, where one could just designate AI minor units to be lent.

[PhilThib]

Pocus is on vacation at the moment, he will look into this early Auguest when he comes back

[veji1]

Pocus is on vacation at the moment, he will look into this early Auguest when he comes back

the simplest way would be just to put a check on minors' troops so that all troops that aren't fixed units or fortress arty, coastal battery, or depot unit automatically become exp forces lent to the main power.... This at least would fix the minor situation.

[Captain_Orso]

As I have said before, whilst the Blazing Sun werent my first choice I am really glad I picked them now... On top of some funky sea and air forces the ground troops look cool, especially the walker

I too wanted to collect the Antartic forces, just because thy are the antartic forces ... but they are looking to become another very popular choice so I am going to wait for the second release of nations and see what appeals to me

ummm... are you cross posting with another forum maybe?!? The above makes no sense at all in the context of WoN

[lodilefty]

ummm... are you cross posting with another forum maybe?!? The above makes no sense at all in the context of WoN

'twas SPAM!

nuked....

Mwahahahahahhaha......