French admirals and annexation of Holland

[Offworlder]

Were French admirals so universally hopeless? I know that as a service, the French navy had suffered a lot during the Revolution, but its strange that none of the admirals have positive traits and their statistics are so low. Even the Spanish do better in this area. The only decent French admirals are those that somehow increase their stats after a series of victorious battles, which thankfully the AI helps with since it allows blockading squadrons to wither...

Interestingly, once France annexes Holland, it comes in possession of a small but decent fleet. However, I have two questions in this regard. Do Dutch vessels ever regain their strength after battles or attrition (either through reinforcements of existing units or through replacement of missing ships in the squadrons)? I've never seen do so - is that WAD? Also, the Dutch bring some decent admirals in the game like de Winters. Do these suffer any sort of penalties when commanding French squadrons?

[Kev_uk]

Good questions. And yes, I think historically the French were not that good at sea, going by the sources I have read. The best, effective fleet is in Brest, the Toulon fleet (ughh Trafalger) with Villeneuve is a good bunch of ships hampered by a very low quality commander. I put it on passive most games I play and try and pull it back to Brest, with the intention of combining my naval assets there. Usually they get intercepted and I have to wait several months to rebuild. I think it is pretty historical.

[Offworlder]

Good questions. And yes, I think historically the French were not that good at sea, going by the sources I have read. The best, effective fleet is in Brest, the Toulon fleet (ughh Trafalger) with Villeneuve is a good bunch of ships hampered by a very low quality commander. I put it on passive most games I play and try and pull it back to Brest, with the intention of combining my naval assets there. Usually they get intercepted and I have to wait several months to rebuild. I think it is pretty historical.

So there actually isn't one decent fellow from the get go - however as I said, sometimes promoted admirals tend to increase their stats. Which is why the Dutch admirals become so important later in the game as they can give France an edge in the maritime department.

Maybe one more issue I have (and I'm not saying that this is a defect or something, just my feeling), is that there is only one three star admiral who is a totally useless ass, but no other admiral can actually be promoted to three stars.

Actually I never move Villeneuve and let him rot in Toulon. The rest of the Med fleet I normally take out on short cruises trying to intercept the Russian or smaller navies in order to get one of the admirals a promotion. When Spain joins the fray on the side of the allies, a few more opportunities come by, but its important that the Toulon Squadron is at full strength. As to the Atlantic, the principle strike force is the Brest Squadron, though I bring in the admirals (not the whole squadron) from Mauritious. They help in easing the command penalties that are present at first. Also, I bind my time until the blockading squadrons weaken and then sally forth from Brest to Lorient (which is never blockaded by the AI). This allows me to repair the ships, gain experience and some freedom to act against the weaker squadrons found at Rochefort and Corunna. Its mostly a hit and run campaign while waiting for the fleet to build up its weak squadrons and gain experience while gaining promotions and possible improvements to the admirals. Up until 1809 I only build modestly, some merchantmen, one or two privateers and some transports. I never proceeded beyond 1809 so I guess then I'd be able to have a creditable fleet with some decent admirals at hand and possibly start building some additional squadrons.

[Kev_uk]

The cost and time length of ship production needs to be balanced with all other aspects of making new Corps and Divisions. Expensive. Like you, I have only made each game till late 1809/early1810, so I don't know how it plays out after. Pretty much the UK dominates the seas, as historical. I usually start the August '05 scenario where the Toulon Fleet is in Cadiz. Most games I try and pull him back to Brest, maybe to combine forces is my goal. They get hammered usually. Merchant ships are important for the boxes, privateers can make some handsome money in boxes too. It is a question of balancing what to produce. I usually sortee out of Brest sometimes to try and break the blockade and increase experience. In the space of two weeks I can make the British withdraw or loose enough cohesion and strength, but then I have to go back to port and also rest. Trade offs everywhere. Not looked at the Dutch Fleet however. Will take a look after I annex them.

[vicberg]

Historically, France won only one set of engagements with the British throughout this entire period of time. That was during the American revolutionary war and the French Admiral (forget his name) fought a series of engagements with the British Admiral (forget his name) and because the British Admiral didn't do Nelson tactics, both sides fought line ahead and to a draw which was enough to prevent resupply of Cornwall and enable a US victory.

The French, even with the What If variant, will not win against the British, at least not against a Human British. The British fleet can combine into a single force with the -35% and destroy anything the French have to offer. Even at -35%, if you have 250+ ships, they are going to cause massive hits. The British naval modifiers and admirals are too good. They have a troop quality advantage to boot.

The French do get some mediocre admirals as the game progresses, but the French will not usually be taking the fight to the sea. That's the purpose of the continental blockade. Nappy realized there was no hope and tried to beat the sea advantage a different way, by forcing all continental countries to stop trading with the British.

Best tactics at sea are guerrilla tactics. Privateers, Off Map Boxes (because they use different combat rolls) and trying to pick on small fleets.

[Offworlder]

Historically, France won only one set of engagements with the British throughout this entire period of time. That was during the American revolutionary war and the French Admiral (forget his name) fought a series of engagements with the British Admiral (forget his name) and because the British Admiral didn't do Nelson tactics, both sides fought line ahead and to a draw which was enough to prevent resupply of Cornwall and enable a US victory.

The French, even with the What If variant, will not win against the British, at least not against a Human British. The British fleet can combine into a single force with the -35% and destroy anything the French have to offer. Even at -35%, if you have 250+ ships, they are going to cause massive hits. The British naval modifiers and admirals are too good. They have a troop quality advantage to boot.

The French do get some mediocre admirals as the game progresses, but the French will not usually be taking the fight to the sea. That's the purpose of the continental blockade. Nappy realized there was no hope and tried to beat the sea advantage a different way, by forcing all continental countries to stop trading with the British.

Best tactics at sea are guerrilla tactics. Privateers, Off Map Boxes (because they use different combat rolls) and trying to pick on small fleets.

Indeed... I've been looking at this and I can't find a decent French admiral historically too. There seem to be no heirs to de Grasse. Still I'm a bit surprised to find that the Spanish are actually better placed in this department. So as Vicberg said, its guerrilla warfare with overwhelming force when possible.

BTW how effective are privateers in practice? I rarely build more than the original one available on map and never really tried to track their effect.

[Philsavory]

If it's of any help, I'm playing as the French Sept 1810. I've got 17 privateers in the commerce box (and 1 in port at St. Malo for repairs) and last turn they sank 2078 (money) of merchant shipping.

[Offworlder]

If it's of any help, I'm playing as the French Sept 1810. I've got 17 privateers in the commerce box (and 1 in port at St. Malo for repairs) and last turn they sank 2078 (money) of merchant shipping.

Wow! That's a pretty hefty sum! Does sending the heavy weights (ships of the line and frigates) and the lighter ships (brigs and sloops) also effect the outcome so dramatically? I'm asking because taking a good look at the stats of major units, these have low detection bonuses, while brigs and sloops have high detection bonuses (which is why its also useful to keep a few of them with main forces as well).