veji1
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please sort out the expeditionnary force + AI recruitment

Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:51 am

1/ So I am playing as the french and use basically 90% of my diplomats endlessly pestering my allies for expeditionnary forces. I keep maxing out the state visits and commercial arrangements, but keep getting rejected by my allies. In the last game turn 100, 2 exceptions :
- Bavaria usually sends you upon first or second request the big Deroy stack with 600cps.
- Eventually on turn 75 Nassau, Baden and Wurtemberg accepted a request and even though Nassau sent me nothing (in the F6 ledger it does write that it did though) BAden sent me 2 brigades of infantry (6 elements) and Wurtemberg a strong set of forces : 3 cav brigades, 2 infantry brigades, 1 horse arty, 1 regular arty and 2 leaders.

But for example Holland and KOI and Switzerland just keep saying no...

And the worse part is that after plastering Prussia and creating the duchy of Warsaw it promply said now and sent it's 2000cps own stack of doom (all its warsaw forces...) to besieged Radow in Austria since I am at war with Austria still (and so is Warsaw).

This is really frustrating, silly, etc... There should be some simple solution since satellites country shouldn't really have a say. Maybe to avoid the french having 2 many forces at once enforce some locking of units for x amount of turns : when the duchy of Warsaw is created, its legions are locked the first 20 turns for example.

But really most of the polish legions should be earmarked for expeditionnary forces to the french !

This system needs to either get fixed by taking AI thinking out of it whenever we are talking about satellites, or replaced altogether with F4 recruitment cards like the foreign recruitment card : No more expeditionnary forces from satellites, but for each satellite the French (or others ) gain an F4 card or RCD they can play that gives them for a EP cost x amount of forces + such and such leader.

2/ The other issue is the AI recruitment.. One can see it particularly well with minors that it's just bonkers : to see Nassau or Berg have 3 fortress batteries, 1 horse arty and 1 cav unit in their recruitment but nothing else is just absurd... Either get rid of the recruitment tool for AI countries and give them troops via events that just check what is already there and tops it up ( say event for Nassau fires every 6 months and checks that Nassau should have 2 infantry brigades, 1 fortress arty, 1 regular arty and 1 cav brigade. It does a check every 6 months and just tops up what is missing, then in say 1808 or 1810 or whatever, if there forces are supposed to get bigger, that 6monthly check takes place but with bigger values...) or fix the damn thing including allowing the AI to go in debt to recruit infantry first, cavalry second and arty last.

So say it's january 1806, the AI for Nassau does its check (I hope it's not every damn turn, no wonder the turn resolution takes time !!!) for troop building, It notices it has 300 gold 50 conscripts, 50 WS and 50 horses. Not enough for an infantry brigade nor a cavalry one, but enough for an arty unit... so it buys one... and again and again and again.. this just has to stop. Allow the AI to check for what it already has and if it already has more than 25% of its units being arty bar arty from the recruitment, maybe even allow it to recruit infantry by going in debt... But really it's just bonkers to see arty accumulating all over the map. There needs to be something fixed, even in a drastic way.

Offworlder
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Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:54 pm

+1

Or else limit the number of artillery and ancillary troops for minors.

veji1
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Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:33 pm

could it be that the check for unit building comes to often for the AI and, particularly for minors, means that the slowest accumulating variable, ie Conscripts, becomes the hurdle making infantry the least built unit by accumulation process ?

Say Nassau (I am making numbers up here) receives 100 gold, 30 conscripts, 10WS and 20 horses and every month, and say the cost is (let's keep it to 3 units here for simplicity's sake ) :
Inf 400/250/15/-
Cav 200/150/15/100
Arty 100/20/45/-

Well if it starts with 300/100/50/50, on the very first turn it recruits an arty unit (only unit it can recruit). you than have 200/80/5/50. One month (+1) later your have 300/110/15/70, no recruitment possible. Next month (+2) you have 400/140/25/90, still no recruitment possible. Than on month +3 you have 500/170/35/110... hurray the AI does it's check (first for Inf, nope, than Cav, YES) and buys a Cav unit. You now have 300/20/20/10.... next month (+4) you have 400/50/30/30, nothing. Month +5 you have 500/80/40/50, nope. Month +6 you have 600/110/50/70, check for Arty, you buy arty and have now 500/90/5/70.... Month+7 you have 600/120/15/90, nope. Month +8 you have 700/150/25/90, nope. Month +9 you have 800/180/35/110, AI Check, it's a yes for Cav and so you buy Cav.... ANd it keeps going on and on.

Basically WS is drained mainly by Arty, horses by Cav, but Conscripts are drained much more by infantry but still a fair bit by cav and since it's the Coscript number needed for infantry is the biggest hurdle to clear, the cavalry keeps pumping away conscripts and you have a loop of arty and cav being built at the expense of infantry...

The numbers are of course somewaht off, but I think this is probably the issue. even giving infantry priority in the unit build checklist doesn't work IF this check is done too often since the AI never quite manages to accumulate enough conscripts.

Offworlder
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Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:33 am

That could be an issue. In fact, just look at the larger factions in Germany like Bavaria and Wurttemburg. They do actually produce Infantry brigades after three of four artillery units are spawned (usually from 1806 onwards). However, there is also a prevalence of militia or garrison type units being produced as well, so WS could be an issue, either because they are wasted by the construction of artillery units in the first place or because they are indeed scarce.

However, my impression is that each minor is hardwired in a different way - for example the Dutch seem to concentrate on their navy, the Italians and Neapolitans on a more balanced army + limited navy, the Swiss on their infantry (addition of like one brigade a year) as are the Westphalians with the Poles somewhere in between (the last two even built divisions, the former one of infantry and latter one of cavalry in 1807). German minors go artillery crazy and then revert to infantry construction. As to the Franco-Spanish, they do seem to produce some decent brigades though I've never been able to levy any of them and remain uselessly around Madrid.

Still my personal preference is that expeditionary forces should be one off, extraordinary measures for minors or levied from larger independent states like say, from Spain and Denmark or Prussia (post Tilsit) for the French and from Spain for the English (once the Spanish went over to the allies), who may be currently allies. As Veji1 pointed out, its better to replace the present system with F4 recruitment cards. In fact this was one of the most successful features in Ageod games in the past (ex Highland and German mercenaries in BOA, mercenaries in RoP, mercenaries and Wallenstein event in TYW and so forth). This always involved a trade off and we know that it is implementable in this game (there is the Rhine regiments card available, I'm not sure if other factions have similar cards available). And actually, it would better mirror the Napoleonic system, whereby he levied specific forces from the minors (a good example is the Chasse brigade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Brigade_(Peninsular_War) . That way we can also have specific units with names as well rather than generic 'infantry brigade 1805'. An alternative could be similar to the 'recruit sailors' card directly applied on a minors capital though I would prefer the card system.

Having said that, it may also be time to look into the replacement system for minors as well. Do they actually buy replacement chits? I'm asking because for example, the original Bavarian artillery brigades never have 3 elements, and I've seen both infantry and cavalry units missing elements as well. And not just for the Bavarians. The weirdest case was Hessen in one particular game whereby following the setting up of Westphalia, all the Hessian units were concentrated in Darmstadt in the south. They had a pretty assortment of troops available but were all grossly understrength, though then the AI proceeded to build a new infantry and artillery brigade, rather than reinforcing all the old units. BTW Hessen also refused to part with its troops.... Also, when they come into French employ, missing elements are never replaced.

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Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:58 pm

veji1 wrote:1/ So I am playing as the french and use basically 90% of my diplomats endlessly pestering my allies for expeditionnary forces. I keep maxing out the state visits and commercial arrangements, but keep getting rejected by my allies. In the last game turn 100, 2 exceptions :
- Bavaria usually sends you upon first or second request the big Deroy stack with 600cps.
- Eventually on turn 75 Nassau, Baden and Wurtemberg accepted a request and even though Nassau sent me nothing (in the F6 ledger it does write that it did though) BAden sent me 2 brigades of infantry (6 elements) and Wurtemberg a strong set of forces : 3 cav brigades, 2 infantry brigades, 1 horse arty, 1 regular arty and 2 leaders.

But for example Holland and KOI and Switzerland just keep saying no...

And the worse part is that after plastering Prussia and creating the duchy of Warsaw it promply said now and sent it's 2000cps own stack of doom (all its warsaw forces...) to besieged Radow in Austria since I am at war with Austria still (and so is Warsaw).

This is really frustrating, silly, etc... There should be some simple solution since satellites country shouldn't really have a say. Maybe to avoid the french having 2 many forces at once enforce some locking of units for x amount of turns : when the duchy of Warsaw is created, its legions are locked the first 20 turns for example.

But really most of the polish legions should be earmarked for expeditionnary forces to the french !

This system needs to either get fixed by taking AI thinking out of it whenever we are talking about satellites, or replaced altogether with F4 recruitment cards like the foreign recruitment card : No more expeditionnary forces from satellites, but for each satellite the French (or others ) gain an F4 card or RCD they can play that gives them for a EP cost x amount of forces + such and such leader.

2/ The other issue is the AI recruitment.. One can see it particularly well with minors that it's just bonkers : to see Nassau or Berg have 3 fortress batteries, 1 horse arty and 1 cav unit in their recruitment but nothing else is just absurd... Either get rid of the recruitment tool for AI countries and give them troops via events that just check what is already there and tops it up ( say event for Nassau fires every 6 months and checks that Nassau should have 2 infantry brigades, 1 fortress arty, 1 regular arty and 1 cav brigade. It does a check every 6 months and just tops up what is missing, then in say 1808 or 1810 or whatever, if there forces are supposed to get bigger, that 6monthly check takes place but with bigger values...) or fix the damn thing including allowing the AI to go in debt to recruit infantry first, cavalry second and arty last.

So say it's january 1806, the AI for Nassau does its check (I hope it's not every damn turn, no wonder the turn resolution takes time !!!) for troop building, It notices it has 300 gold 50 conscripts, 50 WS and 50 horses. Not enough for an infantry brigade nor a cavalry one, but enough for an arty unit... so it buys one... and again and again and again.. this just has to stop. Allow the AI to check for what it already has and if it already has more than 25% of its units being arty bar arty from the recruitment, maybe even allow it to recruit infantry by going in debt... But really it's just bonkers to see arty accumulating all over the map. There needs to be something fixed, even in a drastic way.


Wow, you did much better than me. All of my allied minor nations have agreed to Expeditionnary Forces, only Bavaria actually made forces available to play.

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Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:53 pm

A key component seems to be whether or not a minor is at war with a given faction or not. For example, in my present game, I'm in the process of crippling Prussia which for some reason, Bavaria is not at war with. However, Bavaria is at war with Austria. When I ask for expeditionary forces from Bavaria, it is refusing coz its defending its territory (quite successfully I have to say), from Austria.

Offworlder
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Sun May 01, 2016 8:24 pm

Interestingly, the present game I'm doing as the French, the Hessians practically gave me their army (a decent general + 5 infantry brigades including 1 light brigade + 3 artillery brigades). However, this happened when I got them in the alliance but prior to the Westphalia annexation, though not at 100 support. Quite strange as Hessen always resisted my request previously, though these were done in the post Westphalia setting previously...

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James D Burns
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Tue May 03, 2016 9:32 am

I think a better solution to this would be to simply give controlling nations the option to build expeditionary forces in their production lists when they gain control of a minor (different units made available based on whether they are allied or vassals) and make the forces very cheap to produce.

Then the units would appear with most elements missing from the unit and would need to build up over time by drawing from the replacement pools of the minor nations and not the controlling nations pools. If all minors have auto-replacement purchase turned on by default that will guarantee enough replacements over time to eventually flesh out the units and keep them topped off after battles.

Using the political options to control this was a bad idea and doesn't work well at all so I think new solutions should be explored. After all most lent/loaned forces were actually required to be sent via surrender treaty obligations and choice really didn't play a part in it historically in most cases.

Jim

veji1
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Tue May 03, 2016 11:21 am

James D Burns wrote:I think a better solution to this would be to simply give controlling nations the option to build expeditionary forces in their production lists when they gain control of a minor (different units made available based on whether they are allied or vassals) and make the forces very cheap to produce.

Then the units would appear with most elements missing from the unit and would need to build up over time by drawing from the replacement pools of the minor nations and not the controlling nations pools. If all minors have auto-replacement purchase turned on by default that will guarantee enough replacements over time to eventually flesh out the units and keep them topped off after battles.

Using the political options to control this was a bad idea and doesn't work well at all so I think new solutions should be explored. After all most lent/loaned forces were actually required to be sent via surrender treaty obligations and choice really didn't play a part in it historically in most cases.

Jim


This would then only apply to "vassal countries" ie the green hand with the star alliance no ? Btw this should be made so that only minors could enter a "green hand with the golden star" alliance with a major because then they become vassals. The coalitions between the 7 great powers would necessarily be looser and there you would have to use the expeditionnary force trick.

But I agree. Maybe in that case the at start situation for the french should be that Holland, Switzerland and KOI are full on vassals but that the other german minors which currently have that status (Nassau, Berg, etc...) should only be regular allies and become vassals during the HRE dissolution / RHC creation sequence ? There would have to be a garrison requirement though whereas some troops would have to stay in the minor in question.

I really have to give Vicberg's mod a try this weekend, because some elements of what he does might be usefully retrofitted in the game.

This game should really modify it's philosophy by making a massive distinction between Major nations, which have an AI, diplomatic and military interests, etc, and minors who should only be pawns in game with some limitations as to where their troops or fleet are allowed to go.

veji1
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Mon May 09, 2016 10:07 am

So I have been thinking about it and I think there should be a check in the AI for "full alliance membership".

The game should be modified so that : full alliance membership is only possible between minors and 1 major only who is the leader of said alliance. Basically this would help represent relationships of majors and their satellite countries. This would mean that 2 majors can't be members of the same alliance, they can only have defensive alliance together. This would also help represent the looseness of the coalitions.

Back to the "expeditionnary force" thing. It should be automatic between a major and a minor : When asked the minor should lend ALL of his non-fixed, and non-militia units to his major. The engine would check for membership of an alliance and say yes automatically if full member of an alliance. Then expeditionnary force thing would renew itself automatically every year adding ALL new non-fixed, non-garrison and non-militia units to his major.

Take the initial game situation for France :
- the KoH and the KoI are effectively already lending expeditionary forces to France (this should be in the initial scenario setup btw) : the Antwerp forces and part of the 2nd corps for the KoH, part of the Armée d'Italie for the KoI. Under this new system the "expeditionary force" status for those 2 would expire and automatically renew itself every 48 turns (so say in August 1806 if one plays the August 1805 scenario) adding all new builds to the expeditionnary force lent on turn 49.
- The French would be able to ask straightaway for Nassau, Berg and Swiss forces and would get whatever already exists on turn 3 and all new builds on turn 51.
- Whenever the french would manage to get new "full allies" it would get the ability to ask for many new expeditionary forces. To me this could be an opportunity to really give the HRE/RHC event sequence the importance it deserves : countries like Baden and Wurtemberg should be "locked" into a defensive-ally only status until the RHC event is used, so the french shouldn't be able to use their forces until they dissolve the HRE + create the RHC. As soon as a french creates the RHC it could then get the forces from Baden, Wurtemberg and the new RHC minor (btw creation fo the RHC should come with a wiping out of all HRE forces existing and creation of quite some "garrison quality" but not militia type of units to emulate the use the french made of RHC units in the 1806/1807 campaigns).
- Bavaria is a different case, the french should be able to get them to become a full ally independently quickly (say on turn 2/3 in the august scenario, later in the january 1805 start) and then be able to get their troops. This would basically mean that in September/October 1805 the french would be able to get the bavarian forces as well.
- This would also ensure that upon creation of the Westphalian kingdom or the Duchy of Warsaw the french get the non-fixed troops of those new entities almost immediately. BTW i think the Poles get way too many forces at start, they should have less forces upon creation of the duchy of Warsaw BUT an event after say 24 or 48 turns of existence adding a whole new set of troops).

One could almost get rid of the expeditionnary force tool in those "full alliance memberships" and make it automatic : when a minor becomes a full member of an alliance it automatically on that turn lends all its non fixed non militia troops to the major.

The expeditionnary tool would then be limited to troop lending between majors or minors that are outside of a full coalition (for example one could block Denmark or Sweden from becoming a full member of an alliance, just an example).

Now the issue of troop builds by some minors and the AI generally (too much arty) remains a problem, but at least the expeditionnary force thing could be sorted out fairly simply using this system.

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Mon May 09, 2016 2:29 pm

+ 1!!

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Kev_uk
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Thu May 12, 2016 11:50 pm

Yea, it is not fun capturing Prussian cities and then find out they have artillery units in production. So +1 with the issues raised. Overproduce and stack them to at least give a little, you know, challenge. Austria seems to recover however after Pressburg. Prussia are just dumb.

veji1
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Wed May 18, 2016 2:26 pm

Hello all, It would be nice to hear from the devs if anything is planned to fix the whole vassal states/satellites situation particularly in terms of automatic expeditionary forces (+ automatic replacement chits). It is really a frustrating issue in the game that should be adressed and as long as I haven't heard a valid explanation from the devs, I don't understand why it couldn't be made somewhate automatic ?

thanks guys for letting us know.

veji1
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Thu May 19, 2016 4:44 pm

Hello again, not that I want to hassle or anything, but I would like to know if this is looked at properly, it's a key element of immersion !

Best regards.

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PhilThib
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Fri May 20, 2016 10:09 am

We are working on this, hope to have some improvement on a future patch.
Image

veji1
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Fri May 20, 2016 10:54 am

PhilThib wrote:We are working on this, hope to have some improvement on a future patch.


Great, thanks PhilThib, I hope you can find a simple and efficient solution. I really think at the heart of many issues is that satellite countries should be treated differently than allies. the 7 major should never be able to become satellites to GB or France, so the "best" they could do would be to form defensive alliances with one another, but full alliances (hand with star) between majors and minors should make the minors satellites whereby they automatically grant expeditionary forces to the major power that controls them. Add to that a better recruitment algorythm and it should be great.

Hope the solution happens soon.

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Tue May 31, 2016 10:11 am

I would have liked a saved game where a country agrees to an exp force and then the turn after nothing is sent. (so current turn and backup folder). I got one from 3 weeks ago but it showed Spain refusing to give France forces, with an explicit message about that, so I don't know what the player believed here, this was no bug.

So mystery stays in full. I have again reviewed for the third time the code and if a country agrees in sending forces, you should get some.
Image


Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

veji1
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Tue May 31, 2016 10:53 am

Pocus wrote:I would have liked a saved game where a country agrees to an exp force and then the turn after nothing is sent. (so current turn and backup folder). I got one from 3 weeks ago but it showed Spain refusing to give France forces, with an explicit message about that, so I don't know what the player believed here, this was no bug.

So mystery stays in full. I have again reviewed for the third time the code and if a country agrees in sending forces, you should get some.


Hi Pocus, I still have a saved game I think where Nassau has agreed some turns back to send me an exp force but there is none available. But it's quite a few turns after the actual event. Would that be useful or not ?

Generally speaking couldn't there be a way to just make exp force an automatic yes for full alliance member minors (ie satellites and vassals) like KOI, KOh, Switzerland, post RHC event south germans, etc ?

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