vicberg
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Spanish Army Reform Question

Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:51 pm

When Spain is able to fire the Spanish Army Reform, this event kicks off. Are those negatives supposed to be positive numbers? This event will drop Spanish infantry builds down to 0 across the board.

SelectFaction = SPA
SelectRegion = $Madrid

StartEvent = evt_nam_SPA_SpanishArmyReform_ForcePoolChange|1|0|NULL|NULL|$Madrid|NULL

Conditions

EvalEvent = evt_nam_SPA_SpanishArmyReform_On;>=;1

Actions

ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Infantry_Bde_1805;-5
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Mixed_Infantry_Bde_1805;-5
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Walloon_Bde_1805;-2
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Swiss_Bde_1805;-3
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Italian_Bde_1805;-2
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Light_Infantry_Bde_1805;-18
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Provincial_Infantry_Bde_1805;-10

ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Horse_Art_Bde_1805;5
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Art_Bde_1805;6
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Siege_Art_Bde_1805;3
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Guard_Cav_Bde_1805;1
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Cav_Bde_1805;5
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Dragoon_Cav_Bde_1805;2
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Lancers_Cav_Bde_1805;2
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Mixed_Cav_Bde_1805;4
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Hussars_Cav_Bde_1805;3

EndEvent

Nostra
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Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:04 pm

vicberg wrote:When Spain is able to fire the Spanish Army Reform, this event kicks off. Are those negatives supposed to be positive numbers? This event will drop Spanish infantry builds down to 0 across the board.

SelectFaction = SPA
SelectRegion = $Madrid

StartEvent = evt_nam_SPA_SpanishArmyReform_ForcePoolChange|1|0|NULL|NULL|$Madrid|NULL

Conditions

EvalEvent = evt_nam_SPA_SpanishArmyReform_On;>=;1

Actions

ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Infantry_Bde_1805;-5
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Mixed_Infantry_Bde_1805;-5
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Walloon_Bde_1805;-2
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Swiss_Bde_1805;-3
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Italian_Bde_1805;-2
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Light_Infantry_Bde_1805;-18
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Provincial_Infantry_Bde_1805;-10

ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Horse_Art_Bde_1805;5
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Art_Bde_1805;6
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Siege_Art_Bde_1805;3
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Guard_Cav_Bde_1805;1
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Cav_Bde_1805;5
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Dragoon_Cav_Bde_1805;2
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Lancers_Cav_Bde_1805;2
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Mixed_Cav_Bde_1805;4
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_SPA_Hussars_Cav_Bde_1805;3

EndEvent


Maybe that is for the individual model? Such as the 1805 Infantry and they get access to for example 1808 Infantry Models via a different event instead?

vicberg
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Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:18 am

Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:20 pm

Nostra wrote:Maybe that is for the individual model? Such as the 1805 Infantry and they get access to for example 1808 Infantry Models via a different event instead?


Not that I've found

Also, the Spanish Invasion events all have this:

DescEvent = evt_desc_CMN_SiberiaIncome

And the above evt_desc_CMN_SiberiaIncome doesn't exist in local strings.

vicberg
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Posts: 968
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:18 am

Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:33 pm

If I'm reading this correct, if anyone invades Spain, an event fires off lasting 60 turns. Each 4 turns, Spain has a 75% to:

1) Automatically have volunteers, civilians and partisans increased in cohesion by 3 via a ChgCohesion script command on the Wiki. I have to assume this is a permanent increase since the command is undocumented.
2) Have chance of having an upgrade of regular infantry0 to regular infantry1 (50% chance for each model)
3) Have chance of volunteers, civilians and partisans upgrade to regular infantry (30% chance for each model)

This is in addition to force pool additions (or subtractions as I stated above in this thread). Perhaps, wiping out the infantry builds is to force building partisans, civilians, etc and this event randomly upgrades them to a regular army? So maybe those negative modifiers are WAD. The event I posted at beginning of thread is for Army REFORM. The event I'm referencing right here is for Spanish being INVADED. I'm hopelessly confused.

60 Turns is 15 months. So Spain has 15 months to build a standing army from militia/volunteers/partisans and then what? Stuck building militia and Partisans? Even after it has been able to do the Army Reforms?

vicberg
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Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:18 am

Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:00 pm

Again, AGEOD you guys are thinking purely historical and not in terms of game play. You are trying to recreate a historical simulation that enables players to do "What If". Not an automatic recreation of history. What French player in their right mind, unless they want to replicate the war EXACTLY as it happened, would ever invade Spain, let alone Portugal?

Let's look at the costs to France if they invade?

1) Spain gets to start Army Reforms
2) Spain gets multiple cheap volunteers, etc
3) Spain gets automatic upgrades to infantry of volunteers, etc., automatic upgrades of infantry to better infantry
4) Portugal gets 2 free corp spawned, one that includes Wellington who auto-teleports from India to Portugal
5) Portugal gets free Partisans spawning
6) France, without any choice, gets moved out of cities, regardless of how many troops they have on the city
7) If Lisbon is taken before the auto-teleport events kick off, French troops will be totally wiped out

Why would France do this? Why allow for multi-player games at all when you have things like this going on. The Spanish played is completely hosed if no one invades, and why would someone invade? Better to let them be a buffer between Britain, Portugal, or anyone else and remain completely weak?

You need to think a bit broader than simple historical recreations if you are creating a multi-player game. Or you should remove multi-play entirely and make this a 2-3 player game and enable diplomatic influencing, like TEAW, then these events make a bit more sense.

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Montbrun
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Location: Raleigh, NC

Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:13 pm

IMO, if France invades Spain, there should then be two "Spains" - a loyalist Spain, controlled by the Coalition, and a Bonapartist Spain, controlled by France. This would mean two force-pools - and you're right - there should be some sort of for the French player to invade Spain and or Portugal, and the Coalition (primarily Britain) to defend Portugal, and ally with Loyalist Spain.

vicberg
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Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:15 pm

Montbrun wrote:IMO, if France invades Spain, there should then be two "Spains" - a loyalist Spain, controlled by the Coalition, and a Bonapartist Spain, controlled by France. This would mean two force-pools - and you're right - there should be some sort of for the French player to invade Spain and or Portugal, and the Coalition (primarily Britain) to defend Portugal, and ally with Loyalist Spain.


The two "Spains" is happening. Part controlled by France, I think, I haven't dived that far into the Ulcer events, and the Coalition Spain with a capital in Cadiz.

EDIT: There are two Spains. A new faction FSP is used to track Napoleon Spain and force pool additions. From what I'm seeing, only Madrid becomes somewhat loyal to Napoleon Spain. There's a hit on loyalty to "loyalist" Spain but that's about it. There's a ton of events, so more may show up. But obviously, a few force pool builds and FSP only controlling Madrid isn't going to be enough to invade Spain in a multi-player game. The benefits of doing this are far outweighed by the costs.

vicberg
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Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:37 pm

Ok, so to fix Spain in multi-player and even single player (after a French player tries invading Spain once in single player and goes, OMG), I'm gong to have to do the following in my mod:

1) Spanish Army Reform is going to come in line with all other major powers and be de-coupled from being invaded. Spain may reform their army whenever they meet the requirements
2) Spanish Army Reform Force Pool increase is most likely positive numbers rather than negative numbers. I'll change accordingly, unless I run across another event that might explain
3) Spanish Fanaticism will need to tone down quite a bit or no one will ever invade Spain
4) Spanish Resentment of French Troops will be be changed. If French troops are on Spanish soil and France is at war with Portugal, relationships between the two countries goes down by 1 each turn for as long as it happens. This event isn't taking into account that the Spanish player might want to invade Portugal and require French assistance, in which case the French would be viewed positive rather than negative. So if France is at war with Portugal and Spain isn't, then this event will occur
5) Spanish and Portugal guerrilla events will remain as is
6) Portuguese Revolt events will be based on not having enough garrisons in place in the city. If the French don't garrison, they lose the city. If they have sufficient garrisons, the revolt fails
7) The Wellington and British Corp auto spawn in Portugal will occur only if GBR is AI controlled. Otherwise, the British player will need to transport British Troops and Wellington to Portugal.
8) The Portuguese corp will spawn if GBR is AI controlled, otherwise, Britain will need to build Portuguese troops, which also means that Britain owns at least 1 Portuguese city.
9) Portugal will become British Satellite and completely controlled, including force pools, builds, economy by Britain if invaded by Spain, France or anyone else. If no one invades, then Portugal becomes a British Satellite on June, 1808.
10) I have no idea yet what to do with good ol' Joseph Bonaparte. Nappy came into Spain with 200,000 troops and put his brother on the throne which led to the entire Peninsular War. It was considered a huge mistake and I'm not sure at all how to incentive France to do this again.

Offworlder
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Location: Malta

Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:18 pm

How about giving Joseph Bonaparte Central and Southern Spain for conquest. Northern Spain and Catalonia go to France (or at least Catalonia as per design) while the rest south of the Ebro goes to Joseph. A small military pool of mostly garrison units could be arranged (as far as I know only a small fraction of Spanish units supporting Joseph were actually mobile). Maybe give him Jourdan as chief of staff with a HQ through event but leave Joseph frozen in Madrid since he was only a king and had little impact on military affairs.

veji1
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Posts: 1271
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:27 pm

Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:41 am

vicberg wrote:Ok, so to fix Spain in multi-player and even single player (after a French player tries invading Spain once in single player and goes, OMG), I'm gong to have to do the following in my mod:

1) Spanish Army Reform is going to come in line with all other major powers and be de-coupled from being invaded. Spain may reform their army whenever they meet the requirements
2) Spanish Army Reform Force Pool increase is most likely positive numbers rather than negative numbers. I'll change accordingly, unless I run across another event that might explain
3) Spanish Fanaticism will need to tone down quite a bit or no one will ever invade Spain
4) Spanish Resentment of French Troops will be be changed. If French troops are on Spanish soil and France is at war with Portugal, relationships between the two countries goes down by 1 each turn for as long as it happens. This event isn't taking into account that the Spanish player might want to invade Portugal and require French assistance, in which case the French would be viewed positive rather than negative. So if France is at war with Portugal and Spain isn't, then this event will occur
5) Spanish and Portugal guerrilla events will remain as is
6) Portuguese Revolt events will be based on not having enough garrisons in place in the city. If the French don't garrison, they lose the city. If they have sufficient garrisons, the revolt fails
7) The Wellington and British Corp auto spawn in Portugal will occur only if GBR is AI controlled. Otherwise, the British player will need to transport British Troops and Wellington to Portugal.
8) The Portuguese corp will spawn if GBR is AI controlled, otherwise, Britain will need to build Portuguese troops, which also means that Britain owns at least 1 Portuguese city.
9) Portugal will become British Satellite and completely controlled, including force pools, builds, economy by Britain if invaded by Spain, France or anyone else. If no one invades, then Portugal becomes a British Satellite on June, 1808.
10) I have no idea yet what to do with good ol' Joseph Bonaparte. Nappy came into Spain with 200,000 troops and put his brother on the throne which led to the entire Peninsular War. It was considered a huge mistake and I'm not sure at all how to incentive France to do this again.


I think you are going on the wrong direction. The incentive for the french to invade Spain should be massive, or rather the punishment for not doing so, because it is a key feature of the game and the history of the period. The Spanish cancer did progressively erode the imperial army's capabilities. Even though in hindsight going for Portugal and Spain was absurd, it has to happen in most GCs anyway. it's like playing a WWII game where Germany goes "nah, won't invade Soviet Russia, nothing to gain from that"! The Spain cancer should be a by product of going for Portugal. Re your changes :

1/ This doesn't make much sense, because in for all other big powers like Austria, Prussia and Russia those reforms happen because they have been at war with France. It might not be a mechanical trigger per se, but the devs knew this would have happened (these countries being invaded). So to me it's rather that all other army reforms events for other countries should come as a consequence of having been plastered by France. It should work that way in MP as well : if a player sneaks his way out of war with France for most of the game, well than he is stuck with old army type, because it's only the pain of defeat that led to reform.
2/ I haven't played the spanish war at this stage, but the system described where the spanish army is fed via transformation of partisans/volunteers/militias into reg units once the war against France is started looks quite clever to me : the spanish player has to manage the dual composition of his army with a cadre of regular units inherited from the preinvasion army, a big glut of irregular and low quality troops and their progressive transformation into a nwe regular army after a while. It makes for interesting game play.
3/ Not invading Spain should be very very painful. How to implement that ingame I don't know, but it should be so.
4/ Not sure, the point was that even though officially allied the relationship was never good and the distrust very high. The issue in the game is rather that the relationship between France and Spain should decompose faster than it does, even before the Portugal events. once the brits have slaughtered the spanish fleet, the spaniards should slowly hate the french more and more.
6 to 8/ You are completely right, generally the devs should have made big differences between events for AI Only and for players. For example for each country there should be events for the AI only giving it an army cadre, a bit like the CW2 events about the formation of the new armies in 1861, after their reforms to make it easier for the AI to build a new functioning army. because as it stands I don't see how the Prussian or Austrian AI Can ever really recover from the original plastering at the hands of the french. Those events shouldn't be there, or in a way milder form, for players, but for the AI after the army reforms have been enacted there should an event giving Austria say a new army in Prag with 3/4 corps and their divisions only a third full and in need to be filled via repair/refill of elements.
10/ don't know how to do that either.

vicberg
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Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:35 pm

veji1 wrote:I think you are going on the wrong direction. The incentive for the french to invade Spain should be massive, or rather the punishment for not doing so, because it is a key feature of the game and the history of the period. The Spanish cancer did progressively erode the imperial army's capabilities. Even though in hindsight going for Portugal and Spain was absurd, it has to happen in most GCs anyway. it's like playing a WWII game where Germany goes "nah, won't invade Soviet Russia, nothing to gain from that"! The Spain cancer should be a by product of going for Portugal. Re your changes :

1/ This doesn't make much sense, because in for all other big powers like Austria, Prussia and Russia those reforms happen because they have been at war with France. It might not be a mechanical trigger per se, but the devs knew this would have happened (these countries being invaded). So to me it's rather that all other army reforms events for other countries should come as a consequence of having been plastered by France. It should work that way in MP as well : if a player sneaks his way out of war with France for most of the game, well than he is stuck with old army type, because it's only the pain of defeat that led to reform.
2/ I haven't played the spanish war at this stage, but the system described where the spanish army is fed via transformation of partisans/volunteers/militias into reg units once the war against France is started looks quite clever to me : the spanish player has to manage the dual composition of his army with a cadre of regular units inherited from the preinvasion army, a big glut of irregular and low quality troops and their progressive transformation into a nwe regular army after a while. It makes for interesting game play.
3/ Not invading Spain should be very very painful. How to implement that ingame I don't know, but it should be so.
4/ Not sure, the point was that even though officially allied the relationship was never good and the distrust very high. The issue in the game is rather that the relationship between France and Spain should decompose faster than it does, even before the Portugal events. once the brits have slaughtered the spanish fleet, the spaniards should slowly hate the french more and more.
6 to 8/ You are completely right, generally the devs should have made big differences between events for AI Only and for players. For example for each country there should be events for the AI only giving it an army cadre, a bit like the CW2 events about the formation of the new armies in 1861, after their reforms to make it easier for the AI to build a new functioning army. because as it stands I don't see how the Prussian or Austrian AI Can ever really recover from the original plastering at the hands of the french. Those events shouldn't be there, or in a way milder form, for players, but for the AI after the army reforms have been enacted there should an event giving Austria say a new army in Prag with 3/4 corps and their divisions only a third full and in need to be filled via repair/refill of elements.
10/ don't know how to do that either.


We are in agreement. The incentive for French going into Spain has to be massive. I'm just not sure what yet.

Single player or multi-player, no WAY I'm going into Spain unless I absolutely have to.

After reviewing the events, I have a better understanding of what's being accomplished.

veji1
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Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:43 pm

vicberg wrote:We are in agreement. The incentive for French going into Spain has to be massive. I'm just not sure what yet.

Single player or multi-player, no WAY I'm going into Spain unless I absolutely have to.

After reviewing the events, I have a better understanding of what's being accomplished.


I would reason more in terms of penalty than incentive I suppose. Rather than Spain itself the goal should be that all european ports are closed to UK trade, so France has a big incentive to ensure all other european countries stop trading with the UK. How to do that, I don't know though.. it's not easy to find the righ path between some historical realism and just fun play.

vicberg
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Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:12 pm

These are the sequence of events. There's a few of them, so I might have them wrong

1) There's an event for Charles VII abdication on 1807/12/31. This creates the French Entrevue Du Bayonne Event (Military Option).
2) If France chooses the Entrevue Du Bayonee Option, it installs Joesph as King of Spain. The French player is not forced to play this option. This creates a new faction in Spain with Joesph as the ruler and it only has military control over Madrid. If this event is chosen BEFORE DosDeMayo (Spanish uprising), then there's force pool additions for this new faction and a guard unit that spawns in Madrid. There's a loyalty bump in northern parts of Spain towards this new faction (10-20%). Spanish capital is moved down to Cadiz. Spain loses 25% health and 50% cohesion for all units and -10 NM.
3) If France goes into Spain with more than 20 elements, it starts the French Resentment timer. France does not have to go into Spain.
4) At 36 turns or more of 20 French elements within Spain, this kicks off an uprising, DosDeMayo which puts Spain and France at war. Spanish Rioter units spawn in Madrid. At this point, there's no chance for scripted peace, nor ceding territory, etc...In multi-player, I'm not sure how the diplomatic engine will come into play and if peace can be forced between two players.
5) If France invades with more than 150 elements, this kicks off the Spanish invaded events, which give money, conscripts, force pool additions, RGD Cards (including 5 additional Partisan Raid cards) the event that improves partisans, civilians and volunteers into conscripts and improves conscripts to regulars.
6) The only benefit at this point is if France controls ALL 40 (!) cities in Spain. France gets 2000 VP. There is still no peace, but Spain will eventually have no money or cities to produce units.

The above isn't taking into account Portugal as it is entirely separate, but very hard to believe that France can take all 40 Spanish cities without taking Portugal out in multi-Player. In Single Player, France can attack Spain and ignore Portugal. I'm not finding anything that would otherwise bring Portugal into the war unless France chooses to do so.

vicberg
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Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:33 pm

veji1 wrote:I would reason more in terms of penalty than incentive I suppose. Rather than Spain itself the goal should be that all european ports are closed to UK trade, so France has a big incentive to ensure all other european countries stop trading with the UK. How to do that, I don't know though.. it's not easy to find the righ path between some historical realism and just fun play.


That's my goal. What I've done so far is attempt to preserve the historical flavor and remove the linear nature of the game, so that either in single player or multi player people have choices. Go after Prussia first and form Westphalia. Go after Austria and form RHC. Go after Spain and... (get your a$$ handed to you)

The challenge here is to balance single play vs multi play. In single play, the relationship between Spain and France is tenuous. In multi play, the relationship might be quite strong. If Spain takes Portugal with French help, it can increase the Spanish economy by 30% or more. Lisbon itself is a major economic producer. If Spain can take Gibraltar and France can take Malta, and I've seen Spain take Gibraltar even with latest patches (I thought that was going to be fixed), the med becomes a Spanish lake and Spain can take a lot more, which means more economy, VP and places Spain higher up at the end of game.

Britain is the wicked witch in this game from a multi-player perspective, since there can be only one winner. If you've played Diplomacy, you know what I mean. All their VP come from overseas holdings and they dominate the seas, so not much that anyone can do about it. France is center dominant power, which will need to be ganged up on, but for how long until the coalition breaks apart as people scramble for Victory Points? So Spain helping Britain (thinking Portugal and war with France) isn't helping itself.

So in single player, these events are historical and work fine, though France isn't forced to do them. In multi player, I'm still not sure what to do with them, but somehow I need to preserve this critical piece of historical flavor.

lycortas2
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Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:34 pm

Part of the problem is the simplicity of the event chain. This was a fairly complicated period and there was a fair amount of agitation in France (and Spain) to remove another Bourbon. Probably if France is at peace when Ferdinand takes over for his father France should probably have a NM loss every few turns to represent pressure to expand the revolution. Napoleon ignored the revolution when it was in his interests but when Godoy and Ferdinand switched to Britain it was time for a change.

vicberg
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Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:08 pm

That's the issue. France will be at peace with Ferdinand takes over. Then an Option allows France player to replace with Joseph. Again, no requirements to invade Spain or anything of like.

Only thing that triggers war currently is if France does move into Spain, but there's currently no incentive for it. 2000 VP is tempting, but not enough to think that France can capture 40 cities with the British lurking around. Even if something is setup to allow Spain to eventually DOW France and go with Britain without a French invasion, there's only two roads into France and relatively easy to defend.

In other words, there's little incentive for French to recreate the massive error that Nappy did.

vicberg
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Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:57 pm

lycortas2 wrote:Part of the problem is the simplicity of the event chain. This was a fairly complicated period and there was a fair amount of agitation in France (and Spain) to remove another Bourbon. Probably if France is at peace when Ferdinand takes over for his father France should probably have a NM loss every few turns to represent pressure to expand the revolution. Napoleon ignored the revolution when it was in his interests but when Godoy and Ferdinand switched to Britain it was time for a change.


Ok, thought about this a bit.

So an incentive to put Joe on the throne is because if Nappy doesn't, Spain will become British and probably bring Portugal into the war on the Coalition side (assuming no French invasion).

If Nappy installs Joe, France has 4 months of operations in Spain prior to the full war erupting with Spain, some force pool additions and possibility of smashing some of the Spanish army, otherwise Spanish troops will go to Britain. If Nappy can take Lisbon and keep it from British control quick enough, it prevents the Portuguese corp from spawning. Nothing can be done to prevent the British Corp from spawning, but I'm going to change that to AI only.

Portugal has some automatic training events moving it's troops up from conscript to Veterans without having to fight a single battle. I may do something about that. Seems a bit strange that a British training program with Portuguese can be more effective than training it's own troops or any other major power troops. It's going to have to get nerfed a bit.

Still doesn't help with mutli-player games though. To force someone playing Spain to switch sides doesn't fit well.

vicberg
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Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:16 pm

And for multi-player

Charles will abdicate. Ferdinand will come to power. Nappy will have an option to install Joe on the throne and if he doesn't within 6 months of Ferdinand coming to power, France loses VP and Spain will have an option to join Britain.

Opens up gameplay while providing the historical tension of the time

1) France may choose to avoid the mess but loses major VP.
2) Spain may continue with France and will have guerrillas spawned against it, reflecting the growing revolutionary feeling.
3) Spain may switch to British which may bring the wrath of Nappy down on it.

This should hopefully recreate the Spanish Ulcer mess while giving choices.

Portugal will be kept separate from this.

vicberg
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:52 pm

Ack, and I still haven't figured out what to do with all this in multi-player.

Here's the history lesson. These ENTIRE chain of Spanish and Portuguese events exist because

1) Nappy was pissed off that the single, tiny country of Portugal wasn't abiding by the continental blockade and trading with Britain
2) Nappy hated the Bourbons, who were ruling in Naples, Spain and Portugal at the time
3) Nappy distrusted Spain because Spain considered attacking France in 1806 and felt Spain was incompetent and weak
4) Nappy moved a Corp under Junot to take Portugal with Spanish help. The Treaty of Fountainebleau, signed in secret, carved up Portugal between Spain and France
5) Nappy started moving in 100,000 troops into Spain in order to take over Spain under the pretense of attacking Portugal, which started the massive resentment by the Spanish people, who already resented France because of the loss of the Spanish Navy at Trafalgar and loss/independence of their foreign colonies because they had no navy anymore.

The Mutiny of Aranjuez was caused by French troop presence and led to Charles abdication and brought Ferdinand to power. Joseph was installed as King and Ferdinand was kept under French guard. The presence of French troops in Madrid (and the French wanting to take more Bourbon hostages) caused the Dos De Mayo Rebellion which started the War Between the France and Spain which lasted until 1813, when Charles (or Ferdinand) came back to power and peace was signed. The Spanish victories against the French started rebellions against France elsewhere on the continent, the largest being Austria.

So ALL of these events are based on the French going into Spain with troops.

Do I force a French player to do this or not? Nappy megalomania and narcissism are very apparent. So do I force a French player down the same disastrous path? What if Nappy were a bit smarter and didn't try to take over Spain, instead carving up Portugal between Spain and France? Would the resentment had decreased after they succeeded?

This really started Nappy's downfall.

veji1
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:15 pm

vicberg wrote:Ack, and I still haven't figured out what to do with all this in multi-player.

Here's the history lesson. These ENTIRE chain of Spanish and Portuguese events exist because

1) Nappy was pissed off that the single, tiny country of Portugal wasn't abiding by the continental blockade and trading with Britain
2) Nappy hated the Bourbons, who were ruling in Naples, Spain and Portugal at the time
3) Nappy distrusted Spain because Spain considered attacking France in 1806 and felt Spain was incompetent and weak
4) Nappy moved a Corp under Junot to take Portugal with Spanish help. The Treaty of Fountainebleau, signed in secret, carved up Portugal between Spain and France
5) Nappy started moving in 100,000 troops into Spain in order to take over Spain under the pretense of attacking Portugal, which started the massive resentment by the Spanish people, who already resented France because of the loss of the Spanish Navy at Trafalgar and loss/independence of their foreign colonies because they had no navy anymore.

The Mutiny of Aranjuez was caused by French troop presence and led to Charles abdication and brought Ferdinand to power. Joseph was installed as King and Ferdinand was kept under French guard. The presence of French troops in Madrid (and the French wanting to take more Bourbon hostages) caused the Dos De Mayo Rebellion which started the War Between the France and Spain which lasted until 1813, when Charles (or Ferdinand) came back to power and peace was signed. The Spanish victories against the French started rebellions against France elsewhere on the continent, the largest being Austria.

So ALL of these events are based on the French going into Spain with troops.

Do I force a French player to do this or not? Nappy megalomania and narcissism are very apparent. So do I force a French player down the same disastrous path? What if Nappy were a bit smarter and didn't try to take over Spain, instead carving up Portugal between Spain and France? Would the resentment had decreased after they succeeded?

This really started Nappy's downfall.


True. The question becomes how much room to get away from history does one want. in games like WITP or War in the East the player knows that as Japan, he is going to lose in the end except if he makes the other player drop out. in War in the East same for the german player. The question becomes "can I do better, last longer ? can I be one of those 5% of players who manage to make the ennemy drop out because he is so completely gutted ? Can I be still defending the Vistula when the end date comes ?"

So to me the game should work in a similar way : The french are going to win and overreach, then the question becomes once the spanish ulcer is there, what happens ? What happens from 1808 onwards ? Does the french player decide to defend the Pyrenees, leaving an ennemy Spain to grow its army with British support, meaning he needs to leave a big army there ? Does he try to quell the insurrection ? One way or the other the cancer has to be there, be it because the french are trying to occupy Spain and have to fight the partisans there, or be it because the french wisely decide to just stay in France and maybe just own a few chokepoints in northern Spain but still have to have many troops there because the Spanish army has gotten bigger and there are british troops there.

Question becomes can the french player whack Austria, Prussia, Russia in turn and prevent them from ganging up ? Can those players manage to build an effective force against Napoleon ? In this game Napoleon has 2 easy foes to defeat, Austria and Prussia because he can occupy their land and force a peace. But there should be 3 ennemies with "special" abilities that are his nemesises :
- Brtain who is unreacheable in 90% of games because of its fleet (but hey, who knows, if the french player just builds up boats, keep the fleet in being and then sorties en masse ??).
- Russia who is almost unconquerable because of its size and therefore can build up its troops and because a massive threat due to the sheer size of its army, meaning Nappy must find a way to beat it.
- Spain who has this magical capability of becoming a partisan hell (therefore silly to invade) which in turns makes it a permanent ennemy immune to invasion and requiring a big military cover in the south.

This would sort of be the overall direction to head to imho.

vicberg
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:16 pm

veji1 wrote:True. The question becomes how much room to get away from history does one want. in games like WITP or War in the East the player knows that as Japan, he is going to lose in the end except if he makes the other player drop out. in War in the East same for the german player. The question becomes "can I do better, last longer ? can I be one of those 5% of players who manage to make the ennemy drop out because he is so completely gutted ? Can I be still defending the Vistula when the end date comes ?"

So to me the game should work in a similar way : The french are going to win and overreach, then the question becomes once the spanish ulcer is there, what happens ? What happens from 1808 onwards ? Does the french player decide to defend the Pyrenees, leaving an ennemy Spain to grow its army with British support, meaning he needs to leave a big army there ? Does he try to quell the insurrection ? One way or the other the cancer has to be there, be it because the french are trying to occupy Spain and have to fight the partisans there, or be it because the french wisely decide to just stay in France and maybe just own a few chokepoints in northern Spain but still have to have many troops there because the Spanish army has gotten bigger and there are british troops there.

Question becomes can the french player whack Austria, Prussia, Russia in turn and prevent them from ganging up ? Can those players manage to build an effective force against Napoleon ? In this game Napoleon has 2 easy foes to defeat, Austria and Prussia because he can occupy their land and force a peace. But there should be 3 ennemies with "special" abilities that are his nemesises :
- Brtain who is unreacheable in 90% of games because of its fleet (but hey, who knows, if the french player just builds up boats, keep the fleet in being and then sorties en masse ??).
- Russia who is almost unconquerable because of its size and therefore can build up its troops and because a massive threat due to the sheer size of its army, meaning Nappy must find a way to beat it.
- Spain who has this magical capability of becoming a partisan hell (therefore silly to invade) which in turns makes it a permanent ennemy immune to invasion and requiring a big military cover in the south.

This would sort of be the overall direction to head to imho.


Excellent response and a fundamental choice. Do I make this a "sandbox" game or do I make this a "WITP" type game, where France will most likely lose and the question is by how much?

This is why I believe this game should have been a 2-3 player game, with Turkey, Prussia and Spain in the balance and the ability to influence these countries like TEAW. These questions wouldn't be needed. Prussia would stay out of the coalition until 1806 because of influence of diplomats. The minor countries would be influenced and treated just like they are in TEAW (completely controlled by the alliance or the coalition, including builds and economy, and remove the need for my mod entirely) and the Spanish Ulcer events wouldn't be in question, other than when they actually kick off.

But AGEOD didn't go this direction with WON. I can't force a French player to move into Spain and as you say, the partisan hell and silliness, so that makes me worried that the French player will always just hang around the Spanish Alps and that's it. There needs to be a cost/benefit mechanism to incentive France into Spain, and the relationship between the Spanish Player and French Player needs to be taken into account while doing this, otherwise, it's removing choice and that's never a good thing in terms of multi-player games.

Uggg

lycortas2
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:07 pm

I have always wondered if it is a process of our Western mind-set, or if gamers are just cynical bastards, but we almost always will say 'what is in it for me if I invade?'. But the ideologies of leaders and peoples mattered in this kind of situation, Napoleon and the revolutionaries despised Bourbons on the throne, feared that this would be a way back for the French Bourbons, and were insulted by Godoy's maneuvering. But How do we convince a cynical gamer to invade Spain?

I played a lot of Empire's at Arms back in the day and the French never did stupid things like invade Spain, so our first iteration of games were all French victories. So, we adjusted and that adjustment was every nation but France allies in 1805 and crushes France by the end of 1805.
This has always been the problem of non-deterministic Napoleonics; everyone has to play a historically to win.

I still support a French reduction to NM starting in 1807 unless he invades Spain to represent these matters. Something like -1NM every 4 turns until an invasion. But, what is an invasion?

veji1
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Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:27 pm

Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:23 pm

vicberg wrote:Excellent response and a fundamental choice. Do I make this a "sandbox" game or do I make this a "WITP" type game, where France will most likely lose and the question is by how much?

This is why I believe this game should have been a 2-3 player game, with Turkey, Prussia and Spain in the balance and the ability to influence these countries like TEAW. These questions wouldn't be needed. Prussia would stay out of the coalition until 1806 because of influence of diplomats. The minor countries would be influenced and treated just like they are in TEAW (completely controlled by the alliance or the coalition, including builds and economy, and remove the need for my mod entirely) and the Spanish Ulcer events wouldn't be in question, other than when they actually kick off.

But AGEOD didn't go this direction with WON. I can't force a French player to move into Spain and as you say, the partisan hell and silliness, so that makes me worried that the French player will always just hang around the Spanish Alps and that's it. There needs to be a cost/benefit mechanism to incentive France into Spain, and the relationship between the Spanish Player and French Player needs to be taken into account while doing this, otherwise, it's removing choice and that's never a good thing in terms of multi-player games.

Uggg


I agree 100%, I am but a lowly player but have been on this forum for 10 years now on and off and in the NCP2 thread in the NCP forums I kept arguing "guys let's not overreach, let's keep the diplomatic engine simple, let's not go the PON route"... TEAW was the simple perfect model : have 2 or 3 sides :
- The french, aka central powers in TEAW really.
- The Brits led coalition that one player could play as a whole, with a simple diplomatic mechanism (not engine !!!) that deals with the dropping in and out of coalitions with France or GB of the different other states when they are beate by france and "vassalized" as in "force allied", etc. Minors become close to inanimate objects in such a case.
- One could imagine that the British coalition is divided for playing purpose into 2, a player can chose Britain or one of the continental powers which would be like playing the "eastern entente".

Sure a bit of finetuning would have been needed, but right now the utter mess of DOWs and peaces and Spain releasing the french spain when signing peace with the UK or Prussia releasing the Duchy of Warsaw after signing a separate peace with Bavaria while at war with France, etc etc would be avoided.....

Sigh....

veji1
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:31 pm

lycortas2 wrote:I have always wondered if it is a process of our Western mind-set, or if gamers are just cynical bastards, but we almost always will say 'what is in it for me if I invade?'. But the ideologies of leaders and peoples mattered in this kind of situation, Napoleon and the revolutionaries despised Bourbons on the throne, feared that this would be a way back for the French Bourbons, and were insulted by Godoy's maneuvering. But How do we convince a cynical gamer to invade Spain?

I played a lot of Empire's at Arms back in the day and the French never did stupid things like invade Spain, so our first iteration of games were all French victories. So, we adjusted and that adjustment was every nation but France allies in 1805 and crushes France by the end of 1805.
This has always been the problem of non-deterministic Napoleonics; everyone has to play a historically to win.

I still support a French reduction to NM starting in 1807 unless he invades Spain to represent these matters. Something like -1NM every 4 turns until an invasion. But, what is an invasion?


That's why I would support going some sort of WITP/WIE deterministic route. We want to have the war ending up with some titanic Leipzig like battles where a massive France is up against almost everybody. the goal for the french player is that that Leipzig battle is fought in 1815 in Germany and that the coalition forces haven't reached Paris before the end of the game. That should be the goal : get the land and the good events you can get at the start, know the game willl force you to overextend and then try to last longer by whacking around your ennemies...

Still a middle of the period boring period seems likely, after all IRL between june 1807 and spring 1812, for 5 years all you had outside of Spain was 1 military campaign against Austria, nothing more...

vicberg
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:57 pm

lycortas2 wrote:I have always wondered if it is a process of our Western mind-set, or if gamers are just cynical bastards, but we almost always will say 'what is in it for me if I invade?'. But the ideologies of leaders and peoples mattered in this kind of situation, Napoleon and the revolutionaries despised Bourbons on the throne, feared that this would be a way back for the French Bourbons, and were insulted by Godoy's maneuvering. But How do we convince a cynical gamer to invade Spain?

I played a lot of Empire's at Arms back in the day and the French never did stupid things like invade Spain, so our first iteration of games were all French victories. So, we adjusted and that adjustment was every nation but France allies in 1805 and crushes France by the end of 1805.
This has always been the problem of non-deterministic Napoleonics; everyone has to play a historically to win.

I still support a French reduction to NM starting in 1807 unless he invades Spain to represent these matters. Something like -1NM every 4 turns until an invasion. But, what is an invasion?


Not just western mind set but the basic of politics since civilized humanity. Countries act in self-interest. In Nappy's case, he became an over-confident megalomaniac.

vicberg
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:38 pm

Here's, at best, a compromise between multi-player and single player, choice vs. deterministic

An event that checks from March, 1808 if the French have moved 100 elements or more into Spain. If they haven't, then France will lose 24 VP every 4 turns. Over the course of the next 7 years, that will mean a loss of just over 2000 VP by end of game . Significant. The VP amount matches the amount French will GAIN if they are impossibly able to conquer 40 Spanish cities. These numbers obviously can be adjusted, just throwing them out there. So, France can choose to go into Russia to make up for the VP loss. It forces the French player to do at least ONE of these two major invasions. So that's a plus, I think.

Once France chooses to invade, it will kick off the Mutiny of Aranjuez, depose Charles and put in Ferdinand. Then the Interview of Bayonne event becomes available to France. For every 4 turns that this option isn't invoked, France will lose 1 NM every 4 turns which will be roughly -90 NM by end of game. Again, this could be made up by an invasion of Russia. If France selects them, Joseph is placed on the throne and Spain is at war with France. Spain becomes a British ally and Britain can land in Spain.

None of this prevents the French player from moving in with 100 elements, selecting Bayonne and then retreating out without hardly fighting. Still figuring out what to do AFTER war between Spain and France that gives at least the Spanish player some choices.

veji1
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:52 pm

vicberg wrote:Here's, at best, a compromise between multi-player and single player, choice vs. deterministic

An event that checks from March, 1808 if the French have moved 100 elements or more into Spain. If they haven't, then France will lose 24 VP every 4 turns. Over the course of the next 7 years, that will mean a loss of just over 2000 VP by end of game . Significant. The VP amount matches the amount French will GAIN if they are impossibly able to conquer 40 Spanish cities. These numbers obviously can be adjusted, just throwing them out there. So, France can choose to go into Russia to make up for the VP loss. It forces the French player to do at least ONE of these two major invasions. So that's a plus, I think.

Once France chooses to invade, it will kick off the Mutiny of Aranjuez, depose Charles and put in Ferdinand. Then the Interview of Bayonne event becomes available to France. For every 4 turns that this option isn't invoked, France will lose 1 NM every 4 turns which will be roughly -90 NM by end of game. Again, this could be made up by an invasion of Russia. If France selects them, Joseph is placed on the throne and Spain is at war with France. Spain becomes a British ally and Britain can land in Spain.

None of this prevents the French player from moving in with 100 elements, selecting Bayonne and then retreating out without hardly fighting. Still figuring out what to do AFTER war between Spain and France that gives at least the Spanish player some choices.


There is something there I'd say.

MarshalJean
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:35 pm

Agreed, veji1 and vicberg. For what it's worth (and it's not much), I like the sound of that, too. I agree that the French player MUST be forced into at least one of the cataclysmic invasions (Russia or Spain). Thank you for your thoughts, and work, on this.

Offworlder
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:46 pm

vicberg wrote:Here's, at best, a compromise between multi-player and single player, choice vs. deterministic

An event that checks from March, 1808 if the French have moved 100 elements or more into Spain. If they haven't, then France will lose 24 VP every 4 turns. Over the course of the next 7 years, that will mean a loss of just over 2000 VP by end of game . Significant. The VP amount matches the amount French will GAIN if they are impossibly able to conquer 40 Spanish cities. These numbers obviously can be adjusted, just throwing them out there. So, France can choose to go into Russia to make up for the VP loss. It forces the French player to do at least ONE of these two major invasions. So that's a plus, I think.

Once France chooses to invade, it will kick off the Mutiny of Aranjuez, depose Charles and put in Ferdinand. Then the Interview of Bayonne event becomes available to France. For every 4 turns that this option isn't invoked, France will lose 1 NM every 4 turns which will be roughly -90 NM by end of game. Again, this could be made up by an invasion of Russia. If France selects them, Joseph is placed on the throne and Spain is at war with France. Spain becomes a British ally and Britain can land in Spain.

None of this prevents the French player from moving in with 100 elements, selecting Bayonne and then retreating out without hardly fighting. Still figuring out what to do AFTER war between Spain and France that gives at least the Spanish player some choices.


Well it doesn't make sense for a French player not to invade physically Spain and Portugal, once he declared war. Staying put in Bayonne and Perpignan doesn't make much sense. So give a big national morale boost for the creation of Napoleonic Spain (ie after the seizure of Madrid, no less) and later, the annexation of Catalonia. Possibly the seizure of Cadiz and Lisbon post British landing could also be a trigger for more NM gains.

Another incentive could be the creation of a wider Napoleonic Spain - ie beyond Madrid. We all know that in real life the French Marshals just carved out areas of operations for themselves in real life, and didn't care what Joseph said or did. But maybe we can use the provinces to create a 'creeping' expansion of Napoleonic Spain as more and more areas become more accustomed to French occupation.

vicberg
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:41 pm

Offworlder wrote:Well it doesn't make sense for a French player not to invade physically Spain and Portugal, once he declared war. Staying put in Bayonne and Perpignan doesn't make much sense. So give a big national morale boost for the creation of Napoleonic Spain (ie after the seizure of Madrid, no less) and later, the annexation of Catalonia. Possibly the seizure of Cadiz and Lisbon post British landing could also be a trigger for more NM gains.

Another incentive could be the creation of a wider Napoleonic Spain - ie beyond Madrid. We all know that in real life the French Marshals just carved out areas of operations for themselves in real life, and didn't care what Joseph said or did. But maybe we can use the provinces to create a 'creeping' expansion of Napoleonic Spain as more and more areas become more accustomed to French occupation.


If you've looked at the code within the events, there is a reason to stop at the border. Spain gets tons of Partisan RGD cards, which spawn partisans along the only two roads from France into Spain. They get conscripts and money and can build cheap volunteers, militia and partisans that can, for free, improve to regular infantry via an event. So Spain can place RGD Partisans and build their own and within a few months, voila, instant army for almost no cost. Even Madrid isn't safe and nor was it during the Peninsular War. Joseph had to evac Madrid 3 times during his reign.

So though I totally agree with you, it's not going to be easy. I could easily see a French player try to avoid the NM/VP loss and then pull back to the border.

Spain is truly a nightmare and I think AGEOD is spot on in terms of reflecting this.

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