Ridiculous Peace Treaty cost

[Franz Ferdinand]

I played a few turns as Prussia just to check the game before starting a real campaign with Prussia with the goal of creating a Greater Deutschland. I used the same tactic I normally use in the March of the Eagles (Napoleon Campaigns 2 turned Paradox game), and declared war on all smaller German nations on day 1 (there is 8 of them without Berg and Bavaria which are French allies, Hanover which is British ally, and my ally Saxony) to unite most of German lands before they get alliance or guarantees with Austria and France.

It took me two months to occupy whole area of Braunschweig (the city itself plus 5 or 6 uninhabited provinces) and first of all, it seems silly that for turns when they sent me a peace offer and I refuse it, I cannot send them a counteroffer in the same turn. Is this a bug or WAD?

Moreover, once I destroyed their whole army (8k men) and occupied every single province, I can only get Braunschweig and one more province in the peace deal. This seems a bit ridiculous. In MotE you can annex most smaller states (up to a size a bit smaller than Bavaria), and this seems appropriate for the era. Why cannot I simply annex whole Braunschweig in one war? After this peace treaty it would be left with 4 provinces and no cities, army, income nor a possibility to raise units. How is this possible? Why cannot we straight away annex it whole, like it historically happened? I think that all countries with less than 3 cities/forts should be possible to annex if you destroy their whole army and occupy all the cities. Any chance that you guys might change this? Other than that, the game looks really good. A few bugs and errors (a few units are missing portraits, Russian Army corps enter Prussian province and stay there indefinitely), but nothing a patch or two cannot fix.

[loki100]

....

It took me two months to occupy whole area of Braunschweig (the city itself plus 5 or 6 uninhabited provinces) and first of all, it seems silly that for turns when they sent me a peace offer and I refuse it, I cannot send them a counteroffer in the same turn. Is this a bug or WAD?

its a legacy from PoN where if diplomatic messages cross over they are cancelled. Good thing in WoN is there are less diplomats so its less of an unending interaction

Moreover, once I destroyed their whole army (8k men) and occupied every single province, I can only get Braunschweig and one more province in the peace deal. This seems a bit ridiculous. In MotE you can annex most smaller states (up to a size a bit smaller than Bavaria), and this seems appropriate for the era. Why cannot I simply annex whole Braunschweig in one war? After this peace treaty it would be left with 4 provinces and no cities, army, income nor a possibility to raise units. How is this possible? Why cannot we straight away annex it whole, like it historically happened? I think that all countries with less than 3 cities/forts should be possible to annex if you destroy their whole army and occupy all the cities. Any chance that you guys might change this? Other than that, the game looks really good. A few bugs and errors (a few units are missing portraits, Russian Army corps enter Prussian province and stay there indefinitely), but nothing a patch or two cannot fix.

at the moment your warscore is too low. Best way to increase this is to occupy the capital, that builds your warscore and lowers their interest in carrying on with the war. In the end you get the score you need. Or decide to do it in a couple of wars?

[Franz Ferdinand]

Thanks for the quick reply. Any way to get rid of that system from PoN? It just seems tedious having to wait a few turns before you can ask for a proper peace treaty, because AI keeps spawning them. I did occupy their capital (100% Prussian military ownership), plus ALL of their provinces (which do not have any structure, and there is only 5 or 6 of them), and still I only have enough points to just ask for the capital and one more province. This is a one city nation with 5 extra provinces without structures and an Army of 8k men. If I cannot annex it, then going into any war seems like a wast of time.

[Suvorov928]

I agree that minor nations should be annexed completely, while of course, it should be much harder or even almost impossible to annex Major Powers. Of course, this is coming from an old time Empire in Arms player.

[Respenus]

The thing with AGEod's games is that they always strive for historical realism as much as possible. A consequence of this is that major nations cannot just jump around gobbling up minors in a single bite. If Prussia suddenly decided to go and forcefully annex German minors around it, both France and Austria would respond diplomatically and with arms if necessary. Balance of power was (and in a way remains) a major policy goal and this is reflected in WoN's diplomatic system.

[Franz Ferdinand]

The thing with AGEod's games is that they always strive for historical realism as much as possible. A consequence of this is that major nations cannot just jump around gobbling up minors in a single bite. If Prussia suddenly decided to go and forcefully annex German minors around it, both France and Austria would respond diplomatically and with arms if necessary. Balance of power was (and in a way remains) a major policy goal and this is reflected in WoN's diplomatic system.

That is all true, and I would not mind if my relation with majors deteriorate when I annex a minor, but please allow me to annex 1 town states. Currently peace treaties for German minors are beyond ridiculous, and it makes Prussia somewhat unplayable. For example, I have had all regions of Braunschweig occupied (1 town and 6 non-structure regions) for 20 rounds, plus I destroyed their army, and the only regions I can claim is the town and two other regions. Seems silly.

I occupied all three regions of Nassau (town plus two other regions) and destroyed all their armies, but I cannot ask for anything in the peace treaty. If this is not bugged, I do not know what is. Also, bunch of German minors do not have any army whatsoever, not even a garrison in forts. I submitted bunch of bug report in help section.

Do not get me wrong, the game looks and feels great, but I have feeling like not a lot of QA was done with Prussia and that all focus was on GB and France. Otherwise, how all of this made it to the release version?

[Franz Ferdinand]

Also, gobbling up minors is exactly what Prussia did during this period. It would be historically accurate. The peace treaty system worked great for MotE, with regions grouped around a town/city region, which is what this game needs. It seems silly that I cannot annex 1 town states around after crushing them. I am all for a negative modifier (let's say -5 or even -10) with France and Austria for each annexation, but there should be an annexation option. It is both historical and logical.

[lukasberger]

That is all true, and I would not mind if my relation with majors deteriorate when I annex a minor, but please allow me to annex 1 town states. Currently peace treaties for German minors are beyond ridiculous, and it makes Prussia somewhat unplayable. For example, I have had all regions of Braunschweig occupied (1 town and 6 non-structure regions) for 20 rounds, plus I destroyed their army, and the only regions I can claim is the town and two other regions. Seems silly.

If it's any help, I think you might not've totally understood what Loki suggested

at the moment your warscore is too low. Best way to increase this is to occupy the capital, that builds your warscore and lowers their interest in carrying on with the war. In the end you get the score you need. Or decide to do it in a couple of wars?

I haven't done this in WON yet, but assuming it works the same way as in PON and other AGEOD games, you can't just take the territory and one turn later have a sufficient warscore to get everything.

You'll need to continue to occupy the territory for a while, maybe even well over the 20 turns you mentioned, as you do so your war score should build each turn and eventually you'll have a high enough score to demand more in the treaty.

Now I'm not certain that's how it works in WON, I could be wrong, but it's probably worth trying and seeing what happens.

[Franz Ferdinand]

If it's any help, I think you might not've totally understood what Loki suggested



I haven't done this in WON yet, but assuming it works the same way as in PON and other AGEOD games, you can't just take the territory and one turn later have a sufficient warscore to get everything.

You'll need to continue to occupy the territory for a while, maybe even well over the 20 turns you mentioned, as you do so your war score should build each turn and eventually you'll have a high enough score to demand more in the treaty.

Now I'm not certain that's how it works in WON, I could be wrong, but it's probably worth trying and seeing what happens.

Well, I did understand, I am very familiar with the engine and AGEOD concepts. The problem is that for Oldenburg, Hesse, Nassau, parts of Brunswick, parts of HRE, and part of Mecklenburg you cannot even theoretically ask for these regions regardless of your war score. Why is this so is beyond me. These are tiny countries, and while I am fine with all the penalties and even occupying it for six months, simply not being able to get these territories because design or bug (I say bug because I encountered quite a few of them with Prussia, so I presume that it got less love than other majors), is not only odd, but also unhistorical. Just my two cents.

[lukasberger]

Well, I did understand, I am very familiar with the engine and AGEOD concepts. The problem is that for Oldenburg, Hesse, Nassau, parts of Brunswick, parts of HRE, and part of Mecklenburg you cannot even theoretically ask for these regions regardless of your war score. Why is this so is beyond me. These are tiny countries, and while I am fine with all the penalties and even occupying it for six months, simply not being able to get these territories because design or bug (I say bug because I encountered quite a few of them with Prussia, so I presume that it got less love than other majors), is not only odd, but also unhistorical. Just my two cents.

Ah ok, gotcha. Guess I was the one who didn't understand

So yeah, it may indeed be a bug then.

[Franz Ferdinand]

Sorry if I came off as rude, but Prussia is my go to nation to play for this period, and I spent last 5 hours trying to play it but the diplomacy and German minors are so bugged that it makes me sad. If devs agree, I can help with some suggestions/historical background and bug finding for Prussia. Would love to finally be more active on forum/useful for this wonderful game. Here are examples of what I was talking about
M.burg has only two non-inhabited regions after my peace treaty. Why could I not also ask for these, when I had something like 20 points left?
[ATTACH]35872[/ATTACH][ATTACH]35873[/ATTACH]

As you can see, you cannot ask for any territory even if you occupy all their towns and regions and destroy armies. That can't be right.

[Ace]

Anexing a nation was a big deal, and should not be easily achievable. Realisticly, it was not possible to march into small nation and proclaim it your own without first holding it occupied for some time. If anexing was so easy, France would historically anex whole Europe and not create lots of satellite nation on the continent.

[Franz Ferdinand]

Anexing a nation was a big deal, and should not be easily achievable. Realisticly, it was not possible to march into small nation and proclaim it your own without first holding it occupied for some time. If anexing was so easy, France would historically anex whole Europe and not create lots of satellite nation on the continent.

Completely agree it is a big deal, even though Prussia did exactly that in the Sixth Coalition and annexed half of the German states. Still, atm, I can declare a war on Oldenburg for example, occupy it whole, and cannot even make it a satellite, less claim a few provinces (not even talking about annexing here). Looks bugged to me. I am all for opinion penalties or even intervention from France/Austria, but let's make it both interesting and historical. Annexing did happen (a lot) during this period.

Also, glad to see fellow Croats on the forum.

[Pocus]

Do you have 20% loyalty or better in a region adjacent to the region you ask? As for the rest, can you list in a summarized way (not a wall of text) what you think is not right, bullet points style? PhilThib can review them and we will decide if it goes into the first patch, in part at least.

[beuckelssen]

Do you have 20% loyalty or better in a region adjacent to the region you ask?

So, is this "loyalty thing" mandatory for asking provinces in a peace? I like the idea. Painting the map with your colour shouldn´t be an easy task.

Two more questions:

- It seems this could be the reason of the problems of Franz, but Is this information clearly shown in the game? It seems so important that you don´t want the players missing it.

- Are there any reactions from the other mayors if you conquer the minors? Penalty in the relations at least? For the prussian player shouldn´t be an option conquer all the german minors and after that be able to ally with Austria in order to defend from the french. Too "gamy" and ahistorical. The same logic could be apply in the opposite situation.

Regards

[veji1]

Completely agree it is a big deal, even though Prussia did exactly that in the Sixth Coalition and annexed half of the German states. Still, atm, I can declare a war on Oldenburg for example, occupy it whole, and cannot even make it a satellite, less claim a few provinces (not even talking about annexing here). Looks bugged to me. I am all for opinion penalties or even intervention from France/Austria, but let's make it both interesting and historical. Annexing did happen (a lot) during this period.

Also, glad to see fellow Croats on the forum.

Prussia did just that at the end of the period when :
1/ the HRE had been no more for 8 years
2/ the overall German minor states structure had been completely shattered by 8 years of french domination (confederation of the Rhine, kingdom of Westphalia, etc...).

What you really have to understand is that this isn't War of Eagles or Europa Universalis. Here the GC spans 10 years and as Prussia you start as a fundamentally conservative country, which of course has interests and policy goals but also staunchly wants to preserve the old order. After getting trounced and Iena/Auerstedt, getting occupied and partly dismantled by the French, experiencing a surge in german nationalism "Vaterland, Vaterland !", sure 1813 Prussia was a lot more forceful in pushing it's territorial agenda.

But to begin the game Prussia is with Austria and Russia a defender of the "Ancien Régime" and its ways.

That you can't annex everything around you from the get go is fantastic and makes perfect sense. Be patient my friend. As Prussia you can target some territory to begin with, but focus on building your armies, getting a strong alliance with Russia, getting ready to pounce on the french at the righ moment, or on the Austrians if if fits, and slowly extend your influence and dominion.

I would be gutted if in this game Prussia or Austria could just gobble up german minors by mid 1805 !!

If you want to play the revolutionnary imperialistic power, play France, otherwise have a bit of patience and remember it is a GC : despite the prestige from Frederick the Great's heritage, Prussia is a smallish great power, which should be played tactfully as to avoid what happened irl in 1806/1807 !

[loki100]

So, is this "loyalty thing" mandatory for asking provinces in a peace? I like the idea. Painting the map with your colour shouldn´t be an easy task.

Two more questions:

- It seems this could be the reason of the problems of Franz, but Is this information clearly shown in the game? It seems so important that you don´t want the players missing it.

- Are there any reactions from the other mayors if you conquer the minors? Penalty in the relations at least? For the prussian player shouldn´t be an option conquer all the german minors and after that be able to ally with Austria in order to defend from the french. Too "gamy" and ahistorical. The same logic could be apply in the opposite situation.

Regards

it affects the war score price on the peace deal. So a province where the population likes you (or that borders your core regions) costs much less than one where you are an external power.

but to reinforce veji's point, I think this is WAD. This isn't designed on the Paradox 4x conquer the world model. As a conservative state you have major constraints, by 1813 drawing on the emerging pan-germanism movement, and that the French had already destroyed the old order, you have less constraints. But worth stressing, most of the German minors were reconsituted post 1815.

[Lysimaque]

It would be good if we have 2 options: one realist and one that make annexation easier. I mean if I play Spain or Ottoman and I am unable to annex Portugal or Valachia it make the 2 country totally uninteresting to play during most of the game. Same if I play Austria, I should be able to annex Silesia if i win versus Prussia. Then both players will be satisfy. Can be add easily in next patch I guess.

Because the current system in pebm is not fun if you play minor nations.

[Pocus]

Please read this sentence with attention:

You can ask in a peace treaty any region which has 20% loyalty, or is adjacent to a region with 20% loyalty.

So you can paint, with some work, Europe in your color. That's not as hardlocked as PON but is not as open as some of Paradox games.

Also... there is a regional decision adding up loyalty

[loki100]

It would be good if we have 2 options: one realist and one that make annexation easier. I mean if I play Spain or Ottoman and I am unable to annex Portugal or Valachia it make the 2 country totally uninteresting to play during most of the game. Same if I play Austria, I should be able to annex Silesia if i win versus Prussia. Then both players will be satisfy. Can be add easily in next patch I guess.

Because the current system in pebm is not fun if you play minor nations.

I think if an Austrian player did beat Prussia, you'd have the warscore for Silesia

Bit of advice from many player PoN. Lets lay aside the specific issue in this thread and whether the basic concept is right or the current relationship between WS and what you can claim is right. Any group doing a 7 player game is going to have to come to an answer on a very fundamental question. Are you going to be bound by the game engine or not? For eg two players may come to an agreed peace deal that cannot be enacted within the game. I'm stressing this as its worth thinking over.

The norm in PoN many player games was to go with what the players wanted to happen and then to script in the changes. The problem was a number of such games then fell apart as the world they created steadily diverged from the game engine and there were some big disputes about what level of changes to the core game were acceptable. I suspect some of the same issues will crop up in WoN, so I'd suggest think about this before starting.

[veji1]

There will be discussions to be had because some players are thinking of this game as a EiA type of game. it is not as "arcade" as EiA. Again players shouldn't forget that they have time. the GC is very very long as it stands : you've got 500 turns guys ! that you can't annex such or such minor in the first 30 isn't an issue at all.

[Pocus]

48 turns per year indeed...

[veji1]

48 turns per year indeed...

Players, we aren't very patient aren't we ? I remember a conversation with a developper of big/long turns game who told me that 80% of "playtime" takes place on the first 20% of the turns... ie on average players will only play a fraction of their time past the first turns (say first couple of years here)...

[marek1978]

so if you occupy country for a long time, and you invest a lot of time and money and Victory Pionts in turning regions to your favour by playing regional decisions cards then you can anex country.
So anexing is possible but long, painfull and dagouros proces

hmm

just like ithe real life

Please read this sentence with attention:

You can ask in a peace treaty any region which has 20% loyalty, or is adjacent to a region with 20% loyalty.

So you can paint, with some work, Europe in your color. That's not as hardlocked as PON but is not as open as some of Paradox games.

Also... there is a regional decision adding up loyalty

[gwgardner]

Sure hope the developers do not make annexation easy. Changes to the diplomatic system should be well thought out and tested. As veji1 and others stated, it's a long campaign with multiple ways to influence nations and regions. I prefer such things as the creation of a unified Germany under Prussian dominance to be very difficult to achieve and to NOT be achievable in a vacuum, ie not simply playing Prussia the Bully, grabbing local minors, but in the context of the greater ebb and flow of confilict and pressure across the Napoleonic stage.

[vaalen]

I was under the impression that Prussia received those territories by treaty rather than conquest, at the end of the Napoleonic wars. Most of the lands taken over by Prussia were the puppet states created by the French, Westphalia and the Confederation of the Rhine.Prussia received them at the end of the Napoleonic wars, by treaty. I believe that Prussia would have incurred the wrath of Europe if it just ren around conquering minor German nations during this period. I am not an expert on the period, but this is my impression.

March of the Eagles was finished and published by Paradox, a company that has little regard for historical accuracy in these kinds of games, at least when it comes to conquering other territories. It is common in the EU series and Victoria series for small states to conquer huge empires, when run by a canny player. A different kind of game.

Completely agree it is a big deal, even though Prussia did exactly that in the Sixth Coalition and annexed half of the German states. Still, atm, I can declare a war on Oldenburg for example, occupy it whole, and cannot even make it a satellite, less claim a few provinces (not even talking about annexing here). Looks bugged to me. I am all for opinion penalties or even intervention from France/Austria, but let's make it both interesting and historical. Annexing did happen (a lot) during this period.

Also, glad to see fellow Croats on the forum.