Merlin wrote:It looks like the 2130 power French stack is in Aachen as well, yes? If so, they broke the siege. I've had this happen in CW2 as well. You would expect the interlopers to be required to attack and force the besieging force out of the region in order to lift the siege, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way.
Altaris wrote:I'll take a look this week as I get time. I agree this isn't WAD. Might have to do with Patrol values of units not being high enough, these were reduced at one point to keep MC from changing as quickly as other AGEOD games, but may have made it a bit too easy to sneak units out of situations like this. Should be relatively easy to fix by making infantry elements had bad Evasion values.
caranorn wrote:P.S.: Splitting an army into separate units to effect an evacuation seems rather gamey to me.
caranorn wrote:Your insisiting on armies never walking out of sieges doesn't really help you as we do have an important WWI case of this exactly happening. The Belgian Army with 5 of its double sized infantry divisions as well as cavalry and artillery walked out of besieged and partially invested Antwerp because the Germans had failed to block the supposed passage behind the Scheld. Not to mention a large number of third line troops as well as civilians escaping to the neutral Netherlands. So armies could indeed escape a siege by walking out. Whether that should be possible in your example is another question.
P.S.: Splitting an army into separate units to effect an evacuation seems rather gamey to me.
Kensai wrote:It's a problem of abstraction. Why do you think a siege is 100% airtight? It's not. I think it's ok to have sometimes stacks escape a besieging, as the Antwerp example showed, but it should happen with lower probabilities. Artillery and supply units should lower this probability, cavalry only units should have this higher. This is how I imagine it. Slower units lower, faster units faster.
But 68% chance of catching up in this example is way to high. A 1700-power stack is huge in EAW. And it happened twice!!
Jinx wrote:Nope, the French stack is not in Aachen.
What I did is I split my two armies trapped in Aachen down to individual units. Set them on G/G and evade combat, and marched them through the beseiging army and south, without a man lost or shot fired.
I had to wait until the trapped troops where starved and decreased in strength to boost their chances of evading before skipping town. But I got my boys out. 35 units. 16 of those half strength infantry.
It was pretty stupid so I didn't think it would work. But I tested a bit with my raiders, and once about six supply carts wandered into enemy territory without getting touched. So I figured if I'm going to lose them anyway, I'd see if I could walk them out.
The Germans had about 1700 CP sitting on Aachen anyway so I wasn't going to be able to relieve the Aachen by force, so I gambled, and in this case, got lucky.
So, there are a couple of different solutions:
1) Engine code change to "lock" a unit inside a structure under siege (Pocus will have to speak to the ease with which this could be implemented)
2) Evasion values of infantry/artillery/supply should be lowered (I think this should be done anyway, it's pretty hard to hide an infantry regiment during this time frame). But this wouldn't completely alleviate the issue you're seeing, Eifel would still be a viable retreat route
3) The +3 evasion bonus could be removed by either removing the hard-coded behavior (again, a Pocus question), or by setting 1-star generals to 0 CP limit (but this would require some coding changes for generals like Lettow).
ajarnlance wrote:Thanks for your analysis Altaris. I agree with all three of your proposed steps above.
1) Totally agree. I think the only way to be sure that forces don't walk away from sieges is to lock them in... they should only be able to escape if a relief force pushes the besieger out of the region.
2) Yes, evasion values seem to be too high overall for this time period of static trench warfare... I routinely get cavalry raids behind my lines on the western front and it feels more like the American Civil War than WW1.
3) This should help reduce the overall evasion problem.
ajarnlance wrote:It should be pretty air tight.. examples of large numbers of troops... whole divisions/ corps and armies sneaking out of sieges are very rare. Remember that the percentage chance you are referring to is the chance to engage the forces escaping a siege... it is no guarantee that the force will be destroyed... in fact if the escaping force is in passive/passive posture it will prob. take a few hits and then retreat to a friendly region. The 'escape siege' loop hole is also unbalancing the game. As the CP my most vulnerable cities to siege are in my colonies... the forces in these cities cannot escape because there are no friendly regions adjacent... so I will take some morale hits for sure. But if every time I siege a city in Europe the garrison walks I lose any chance of surrender and a corresponding morale gain.
Kensai wrote:That's why I said it's a problem of abstraction. You probably have in mind medieval sieges with trebuchets and rotten cows thrown over a city!
In reality and in this modern abstraction a siege is simply cutting off the major routes and bombarding one side of the city with your artillery. It should be rare for the defenders to sneak in or out, but not entirely impossible. This should NOT be airtight. The sizes of towns, cities, and fortifications are huge in respect to other eras.
Pocus wrote:I was actually surprised by Ajarnlance report. I thought the code handled the situation. In fact the code handle that if you are engaged in battle and you were besieged, you are put back into the structure... But it did not handle that if you make a sortie, then you can escape with the evade fight special order...
I don't think it is good as it is, even if there are historical examples it seems that you can sortie and escape the enemy
PJL wrote:I agree that evasion values across the board (land and naval) are too high at the moment.
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