Advice needed - to understand battles more

[rulezcz]

Hi I would like to ask someone more experienced what should I do to destroy those three german armies encircled as seen in the image

The german armies are very strong and I am not able to beat them with my units.

Can I starve them ? Or should I attack from all sides at once or what is the right tactics here ?

Thanks

[Reiryc]

I'd starve them for a few turns. No sense in attacking them when they are at full health and full cohesion. Also make sure you have plenty of medium artillery for the stack you do attack first. I'd focus one at a time given your comment about not having the strength to the beat them.

[rulezcz]

I forgot an improtant thing ... they have been sittng there like this for at least 3 months ...I don´t see no attrition, no cohesion loss nothing...could they be supplied through he river or from the cities they occupy ?

[Reiryc]

I forgot an improtant thing ... they have been sittng there like this for at least 3 months ...I don´t see no attrition, no cohesion loss nothing...could they be supplied through he river or from the cities they occupy ?

Yes they could...

I'd just ensure to have enough medium to heavy artillery before attacking them.

[icefenix]

You might have easy supply on. Which IIRC allows units to be in supply as long as they the structure in the territory. This creates interesting dynamics where you or the enemy can raid deep behind enemy lines as long as you continually capture the structure in the territory.

Turn easy supply off, and if you have truly cut them off of supply they will slowly starve.

[Kensai]

Easy supply ON indeed takes a big chunk of realism off the game. Although admittedly the logistics is the most brilliant and technically advanced piece of engine logic the AGEOD engine has, it may be hard to master. Nonetheless it adds a lot to the game and its historical abstraction.

These armies will definitely bleed in the course of weeks if not months if they are surrounded and isolated like that. I seriously doubt Strasbourg, Baden, and Karlsruhe produce enough supplies per turn to feed them. Keep the pressure on, you need to be patient.

[Shri]

Strasberg is a big city with a fortress so unless you have heavies do not assault, use gas to weaken the enemy, i think those 3 cities produce enough supplies for the armies.

[Kensai]

It might not be enough. Strasbourg is an 8-level city. It should produce about 48 supplies per turn. Plus 12 for a 3-level depot (don't remember what level it has exactly), plus another 2 for the fort (again, what level exactly). Some 60-70 supplies per turn I suspect overall. Can it sustain a 1450-force army? This depends on the type of troops that that stack has, but I don't think so. The situation seems even worse in the other cities.

I believe they can be starved. Of course the exact timing may vary, as Strasbourg could have stacked lots of supplies. But as long as they are besieged, why should the Entente care?

[Shri]

They should, 1485 power is a lot if that army marched out and attacked nearby areas, which are all GERMAN cities, it can run-over quite a lot of places before being stopped and the ENTENTE armies may become out of supply, AI generally is scared to 'throw dice' but a player will have turned tables with 3 turns.

P.S: All nearby Entente stacks are in the range of 300-600, so will be defeated by that super stack.

[H Gilmer3]

You could try hitting them with chemical attacks to soften them as well as making sure you have bombers close enough to engage in a bombing mission (if you are far enough along in the game to have bombers). Also have a lot of heavy artillery would help.

[fred zeppelin]

I had one game where von Kluck's army sat besieging Paris, completely cut off from supply, for four and a half months. His supply was at 5% after two months, but he still sat there. His combat power gradually dropped from 487 to 145 over the course of the last two months or so, then increased to 175 and he started a retreat.

This was with normal (not easy) supply rules.

[Kensai]

Sure, everyone could have his own personal account on this matter. It is hard to estimate without knowing the exact situation, supply carts state, etc. Your Parisian case is pretty straightforward. After two months the supplies were probably finished, but given Paris region is a rich region, Von Kluck could live off the lands. He did so until the region was probably pillaged (a bad roll or initial damage if there was a big battle on arrival) and then started taking hits without the ability to take troop replenishment. Six months is not that much in such case. Do you have the save?

Some Generals even have abilities that help them even more while out-of-supplies. These are my favorite in all AGEOD games cause I like to assign them impossible and daring missions. Eugen of Austria-Hungary, my favorite in the entire game and the only 3-star General that can be called to action by the flag decision, has this very ability!

[fred zeppelin]

I don't have that save. I played some hands-off games over the weekend while watching football games. I played as the WE and did nothing but hit the next turn button (I let the AI select the battle plan for any battles). The game I described was the first one and I still had the game set to save only three turns. I ran two more games the same way, trying to reproduce the result, but the Germans never even attacked Paris at all in either of those two games. They just sat in Brussels or Sedan in giant stacks. They always attacked Sedan on the first turn, usually winning, but never did anything to follow up. I played each game well into 1915 but the German AI mostly just sat there after the first turn or two.

I have saves and screenshots from the last two games. Both were on normal difficultly, one with a low AI detection bonus and the other with a medium detection bonus (the tool tips in the Options menu are contradictory - one recommends a low AI detection bonus and another a medium one - so I tried both).

I figure this will be fixed in the patch, but let me know if you want to see the saves or screenshots.

[Kensai]

I just wanted to know what your opinion is. Is 6 months a lot or too little? Essentially, from what you described, it was two months eating own supplies, then living off land, and last starving. In the end it might have been less than 2,5-3 months really out of supplies. I think this is pretty realistic, what do you think?

By comparison, although I know it's another war, Stalingrad's ring closed on 23rd of November and the troops lived in harsh winter and under attack until February 2. I guess 2 months and something, 4-5 turns game-wise. In my own humble opinion, if the German troops in Paris were not attacked (as you were watching football, as you said), they could definitely live off the land until their final unavoidable demise.

[Lynxyonok]

I just wanted to know what your opinion is. Is 6 months a lot or too little? Essentially, from what you described, it was two months eating own supplies, then living off land, and last starving. In the end it might have been less than 2,5-3 months really out of supplies. I think this is pretty realistic, what do you think?

By comparison, although I know it's another war, Stalingrad's ring closed on 23rd of November and the troops lived in harsh winter and under attack until February 2. I guess 2 months and something, 4-5 turns game-wise. In my own humble opinion, if the German troops in Paris were not attacked (as you were watching football, as you said), they could definitely live off the land until their final unavoidable demise.

Yes, but that city was burnt to the ground, and the surrounding countryside was essentially a desert.

[Taciturn Scot]

This was with normal (not easy) supply rules.

Just to be clear, what setting do you have for Attrition? The Normal settings mean that the human player's forces suffer from the normal effects of attrition but the AI doesn't while the Hard option applies to both. My bad if it's something else.

If that's the case, wouldn't it make more sense if the designers changed it so that Normal in both and Hard is player-only?

[fred zeppelin]

Just to be clear, what setting do you have for Attrition? The Normal settings mean that the human player's forces suffer from the normal effects of attrition but the AI doesn't while the Hard option applies to both. My bad if it's something else.

If that's the case, wouldn't it make more sense if the designers changed it so that Normal in both and Hard is player-only?

I don't have access to the game at the moment, but I set the difficulty to the one where neither side gets any bonuses (at least that's what the tool tip implies). I'll check when I get home, but I think it have it set to historical attrition.

[fred zeppelin]

I just wanted to know what your opinion is. Is 6 months a lot or too little? Essentially, from what you described, it was two months eating own supplies, then living off land, and last starving. In the end it might have been less than 2,5-3 months really out of supplies. I think this is pretty realistic, what do you think?

By comparison, although I know it's another war, Stalingrad's ring closed on 23rd of November and the troops lived in harsh winter and under attack until February 2. I guess 2 months and something, 4-5 turns game-wise. In my own humble opinion, if the German troops in Paris were not attacked (as you were watching football, as you said), they could definitely live off the land until their final unavoidable demise.

It was four-and-a-half months - early Dec through late April - in my game (I revised my post after realizing I miscounted). That seems long to me, though I agree Paris presents unusual opportunity to live off the land.

What was more puzzling was that von Kluck's army attacked the Paris garrison the first turn after arriving and defeated them. They then besieged Paris until the fortress was completely breached. They were still in the 400+ combat power range at that point, but didn't move to occupy Paris. They just sat outside the city - ignoring what I presume is the CP goal of the Historical Campaign - while their supply evaporated.

Nor did any of the many uncommitted AI units in Belgium or Sedan move forward to open a supply line to von Kluck or assist his siege.

And in the other two games, no one moved forward at all, beyond an initial attack on Sedan and mopping up of the Belgian army. The AI was just incredibly passive.

I assume the patch will address these sorts of things.

[Forezjohn]

My 2 cents,
I started a game as WE with easy supply activated after some impressive manoever(:P) I managed to encircle german army in metz.
After 6 months of siege that army was as good as new so I asked a friend who talled me to stop easy supply wich I did.

One year latter, that army was still supplied

[AndrewKurtz]

Can the supply model be changed mid-game?

[Forezjohn]

Can the supply model be changed mid-game?

At least it worked for me : I had some difficulties with supply - that I never had up to that point- after that change

[fred zeppelin]

My 2 cents,
I started a game as WE with easy supply activated after some impressive manoever(:P) I managed to encircle german army in metz.
After 6 months of siege that army was as good as new so I asked a friend who talled me to stop easy supply wich I did.

One year latter, that army was still supplied

Do you still have the saved game? Perhaps some of the betas would want to take a look at it.

[Forezjohn]

Do you still have the saved game? Perhaps some of the betas would want to take a look at it.

I've got the save, but I finaly took the place a few turns ago and I believe the save doesn't keep every turn since the beginning