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Shri
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Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:08 am

In general- Ottoman and Bulgaria in 9/10 games should go to CP and Romania and Italy to WE/EE.
Greece should try and be neutral for some time but after Salonika should slide to WE not EE.
Portugal and Japan always WE.
Arabia is also for WE
Afghanistan and Persia neutral or for CP.

In game-
Portugal and Romania come in early 1915, too early - both need to be pushed back by 1 year.

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Kensai
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Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:16 am

Even higher for all than the last two, unless some really "lucky" dice rolls happen.
Haven't noticed if there are any events that push Persia or Afghanistan to either side. I guess the game is pretty much balanced for them and it will depend on the efforts of the alliances. Historically correct.

Ditto for Portugal and Romania, please everyone report if you see unreasonably early/late entries in the war for certain nations.
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Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:51 pm

Kensai wrote:Theoretically yes. The same goes for the Ottoman Empire and Italy. However the AI is quite deterministic at the moment (something I wish we could change, ie make the AI choose with some lesser probability certain events, especially when not playing the historical war plans, if that possible) and you will almost never have enough influence to drag them to your camp first. In a multiplayer it is possible. There again, few players will let their historical allies slip away.


I do think also that the game should be less determistic, diplomaticaly speaking.

And a "Diplomatic poker" (check WW1 Gold) decision should exist for the central powers : drawing Italy in by waiting a franco-russian declaration of war at a severe cost.

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ohms_law
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Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:58 pm

Palpat wrote:I do think also that the game should be less determistic, diplomaticaly speaking.

And a "Diplomatic poker" (check WW1 Gold) decision should exist for the central powers : drawing Italy in by waiting a franco-russian declaration of war at a severe cost.


+1

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Shri
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Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:49 am

Well, that DIPLOMATIC POKER should cost the Germans, the starting position of the Armies, i.e. 1st, 2nd and 3rd armies must start inside Germany;
Also EP and NM should be lost by Germany.
Positives should be-
UK is 10% shift towards CP and Italy is 25% shift towards CP.

If you combine with Plan- Moltke it may be good.

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Kensai
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Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:35 am

There can be no diplomatic poker, the game starts after the declarations of war have been delivered.
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bob.
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Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:58 am

Kensai wrote:There can be no diplomatic poker, the game starts after the declarations of war have been delivered.

"Late July" implies the war has not yet been declared, though.

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Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:07 am

I am of course thinking about a late july start, when you can select your war plans.

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Kensai
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Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:56 am

Still, this kind of pre-war diplo is not implemented. In late July you only select the war plans, but the war will be happening. This is a war game. :)
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Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:06 pm

Where did we say "no war"?

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Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:07 pm

Kensai wrote:Still, this kind of pre-war diplo is not implemented. In late July you only select the war plans, but the war will be happening. This is a war game. :)


This is not a good reason. If we use the same reasoning, no nation should be able to select a war plan, especially not Germany. When war was declared, changing war plans was way, way, way, waaaaaay too late! Great Britain should always join in the first turn, too, because "the game starts after the declarations of war have been delivered."
Also, There is diplomacy, there is building of units, there are political decisions, there is a resource system. All not part of what I consider part of a pure war game.

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Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:38 pm

What can I tell you, bob? The game starts ALWAYS with Germany-Austria at war with France and Russia-Serbia. There is no pre-war diplo. Sorry.
Perhaps there were thoughts to have Serbia fold or not fold (you get a "historical" event for that), but it always starts the same way.
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Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:43 pm

I don't understand what you don't get here.

The point is not to have no war or whatever but an OPTION like in other wargames (such as Guns of August or World War One) where Germany choose a diplomatic poker (taking a somewhat strong cost, of course) : Germany waits for a Franco-Russian declaration of war instead of declaring war and, therefore, the whole triple alliance treaty takes place. Italy joins.
The only change is the cost the Italian entry into the fray.

That's a classic "what if". What ifs are also the point of wargaming.

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Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:46 pm

Kensai wrote:What can I tell you, bob? The game starts ALWAYS with Germany-Austria at war with France and Russia-Serbia. There is no pre-war diplo. Sorry.
Perhaps there were thoughts to have Serbia fold or not fold (you get a "historical" event for that), but it always starts the same way.


Well yeah, but I don't think anyone here is wanting any initial at war countries changing their allegiance. Just some more options for the July turn like in WW1 Gold. In WW1 Gold the war will also always happen and France and Russia-Serbia will always start at war with Germany and Austria-Hungary.
In the end, this is a game. Obviously, a "diplomatic poker"-like option where the war starts differently does not make sense if the first turn really is "late july". But considering that you can also select war plans, I would think the first turn is just an abstracted "pre-war turn". NOT explicitly the two weeks before August. So I think it would make sense to give some additional options.
I am a little bit disappointed that they are left out of TEAW because they were awesome in WW1 Gold!

(Although I do absolutely understand why they were left out. A lot of additional work, especially regarding game balance. But maybe now that the game is out, an add-on like that could be considered?)

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Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:00 pm

Perhaps. But perhaps you will find more luck by asking the WW1G devs adding missing EAW features, albeit this would be far far harder!
Seriously though, let's have v1.01 and some more theaters & starting dates first, and future DLCs might add all the functionality of the world. It is not impossible what you are asking, simply not a priority, from what I understand.
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Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:52 pm

Writing a decision is indeed far from impossible.

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Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:54 pm

Kensai wrote:Perhaps. But perhaps you will find more luck by asking the WW1G devs adding missing EAW features, albeit this would be far far harder!


It would be great if a developer would be allowed to improve WWIG. Or if AGEOD would do what another developer has tried to do. Or, perhaps best of all, if AGEOD and another developer would work together to improve, not only WWIG, but some of AGEOD's other brilliant but technically-challenged designs (starting with PON).


Seriously though, let's have v1.01 and some more theaters & starting dates first, and future DLCs might add all the functionality of the world. It is not impossible what you are asking, simply not a priority, from what I understand.


Makes sense.

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Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:09 pm

If Serbia folded, we would have no war to begin with

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Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:33 pm

I know, but you still take an event that shows that Serbia decided for the historical outcome: to deny the ultimatum!
Perhaps in the future we could have options such as the ones in RUS "Drang Nach Osten" where the Russians could fake their agreement. ;)
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Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:52 pm

Ace wrote:If Serbia folded, we would have no war to begin with


I'm rereading Dreadnought by Robert K. Massie at the moment, and he presents a compelling argument that A-H was dead-set on war regardless of how Serbia responded.

But we need a war, of course, to have a game.

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Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:32 pm

Kensai wrote:I know, but you still take an event that shows that Serbia decided for the historical outcome: to deny the ultimatum!
Perhaps in the future we could have options such as the ones in RUS "Drang Nach Osten" where the Russians could fake their agreement. ;)


The basic principle of every WW1 game with a "diplomatic poker" isn't that Serbia refuses.
The basic principle is Germany's patience : in order to get Italy to join, because of triple alliance rules, in a defensive war. War breaks out all the same. But Russia & France declare war, not Germany.
Therefore, Italy joins at a cost for Germany/Triple Alliance.

It was an option in Guns of August and in World War One gold. And the war happens all the same with this sole difference : Italy.

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Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:42 pm

This can still happen in this game, albeit it is rather improbable. The player needs to invest a lot in the diplomatic "conviction" of Italy. He has to send a diplomat from the first turn (delaying Turkey's entry, possibly) and make some concessions later on. It is almost impossible to happen, though, because the AI plays always its cards (D'Annunzio, Tripoli, and Entente promises to Italy), thus Italy is almost certain to join the Entente. The same applies for Romania (which historically has an agreement with the Central Powers since 1883).

There is no other way to do it at the moment. There is no pre-war poker. This is another game.
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Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:47 pm

I know that, and this is my whole point :

- The game should be a little less deterministic with Italy and Turkey. I say they should stay historic for the 2/3rd of games. After all, we do have non-historical war plans.

- One should have the option, as C.P, to try to get Italy to stay faithfull to the alliance when selecting the war plan. That's not much of a change, just a few decisions to add.

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Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:02 pm

I agree with you and I am hopeful that in the future such pre-war options might arrive. HOWEVER, at the moment there are in-war priorities to deal with this situation, already suggested to the developers: I think that when the player chooses the grand campaign, and not the historical, the AI should be less deterministic. Even if by chance it selects the historical plans again. There should be some chance to choose totally different partners, even if they don't make sense historically. Thus, it will be possible to influence as CP Greece and Romania, instead of Turkey and Bulgaria. Or maybe Italy, as you said. Personally, I would like to see the event that adds the Arabians to the WE not be automatic, but add a hefty +25% alignment when played. This way it would be far less deterministic.

All in all, I do as well want to see the AI choose its decisions and events with less certainty. D'Annunzio for example fires always. This makes it almost impossible for a CP player to do anything with Italy in time.
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Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:55 pm

Of course, there are other priorities.
I am glad we agree on the overall philosophy.

By the way, non-historical alliances aren't that nonsensical. Greece was widely divided and more or less choose the Entente because, well, she was already occupied.
Romania's government was also to a certain extent pro-central powers.
And it's not that far stretched to see Ottoman Empire join the Entente if Italy (against whom he just lost a war) or Greece/Bulgaria (same here) choose the Central Power. That was more or less the diplomacy mechanisms of World War One Gold and it worked. When a neutral joined a side, its rivals gained loyalty toward the other one.
The only ones that shouldn't be able to join the Centrals are the one that already can't in both games : The U.S. (why would they do that?) and the U.K. (balance issue & no real qualms against France/Russia).

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Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:16 pm

Actually, I bit the bullet and read the events (although I really want to avoid this). There is a chance that Serbia actually folds... but it is very low, possibly unrealistically low. This can only happen when a special combination of war plans is selected by both CP and EE. Since this happens in July we can argue it's a form of limited pre-war diplo.
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Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:41 pm

Portugal should actually have an option to enter the day after Britain does; Britain chose not to accept Portugese aid as they felt the Portugese would just be a drain on British resources. Also, Bulgaria did not 'hate' Russia, most of their problems were dealt with in the 1890's. The Bulgarians certainly had territorial claims against the Ottomans and I would rate Bulgarian entry (all other things being equal) as 60/40 CP/Entente. The Romanians had no real basis for wanting Bessarabia but did have irredentist claims on AH.

Diplomatic poker was a joke in WW1 gold anyway. It was purely for fantasy as something like that was never going to happen. If Germany did not declare war I doubt anyone would have. Russia and AH were negotiating for days after Germany declared war on Russia. Russia knew that they were in no way ready for a war of any kind, the Germans started WW1.

It is one of the problems of strategy gaming, we are all opportunists. Germany could have declared war in 1905 or 1906 and beat France and Russia easily.

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Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:21 pm

Indeed I think the game isn't deterministic at all. I can't really understand all this whining about "poker" the game is about war, not poker! :p apy:
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Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:53 pm

HerrDan wrote:Indeed I think the game isn't deterministic at all. I can't really understand all this whining about "poker" the game is about war, not poker! :p apy:


The suggestions - "whining" you call them - are that there should be more options and variation about who fights whom. We still want fighting.

And, yes, this is primarily a war game. But Tamas has said that he also envisions the game as a strategy game. So it's more than fair - not "whining" at all - to critique the game on that basis as well.

Hope you can tolerate some discussion along those lines.

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