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Christophe.Barot
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PON - analyzing AI and flow of game AAR GIVES A FEW LESSONS

Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:18 am

here is situation of my present game with Germany (I almost completed a game with Russia - am in year 1919) situation as is in July 1880 (which can be compared with a starting situation) and the lessons and feeling I draw from it

first a remainder of how we got there (sort of restricted AAR) , present situation, and my reading - illustrates a number of points exposed in different threads :

[ATTACH]26195[/ATTACH]

1st - Germany is united (including Alsace-Lorraine) - present alternative scenario work - for a player - as North German federation fires without needing a war with Austria
consequenly there was never a war with Austria - ne need - except training German Generals - and useless to destroy bonds with Austria, extremely difficult to rebuild with diplomatic relations inertia
as in present state, an alliance [color="#FF0000"]guarantees [/color]a + 100 relationships

German full unification (including Alsace AND Lorraine) results of a script provoking it when paris is taken and hold (historically, lost by moderate republicans and held by far left "communards", while besieged by Prussians) - out of this script unification takes place by evt_nam_PRU_Germany1871 when Alsace and Lorraine are hold, but France never proposes Alsace AND Lorraine at peace (plus Lorraine has to have a special script to be transferable), so to have historical transfer one needs a script - result here is the script + long besieging of Paris - experience shows Paris holds a lot of time, which is historically accurate

2d - in the East Memelland, Litauen (Kowno Wilna) and Wielkopolska Mazowze (Lodz, Warsawa) have been repressed by Prussians - for an absolutely unknown reason, they were not transferred back to Russia by system (bug ?)

This was totally unexpected, goal was to train generals by victories against rebels (revolt happened roughly at same time than Danish war, but It's not long before Sleswig and Holstein are Prussian controlled - one turn usually, sometimes two ) - with possible bonus of captured facilities (when an ally takes a province, province is turned back to allied initial owner - usually as those four provinces didn't - but NOT the facilities, like wheat fields, mines, factories) - something that should be changed imho - one has no control on "allied seizure", and mechanism of nationalizatiopn, useful, doesn't enter play if relations remain excellent.

the other provinces, after a few turns , had to be transferred back tu Russia by system - why then ? and not before ? no idea, there was still NO Russian ethnics either at tarnow Modlin Ostrowa Radom even if I had to give them back to Russia. to note a 100% rebel loyalty in Memelland transformed in 100% Russian lmoyalty (rubberband mechanism ?) creating a casus belli from Russia against me, while I had no way but script to give back this province to Russia

[ATTACH]26196[/ATTACH]

the western part - France- is under attack from me - there is nothing I could annex, only motive is to keep relation with Austria - with correlative advantages of a weakening of France and some action (for a player, it is a welcome change from exports/import countings) - start of war worked fine - Germans enjoy an excellent generalship and can send morer concentrated actives troops than the French do


Germany is well ahead in terms of coloniesy but it is a sustained effort after
1) Germany was united
2) German industrialization was well on way - actually it began before, but arbitrations had to be made on credits affectation

[ATTACH]26197[/ATTACH]

It may look too easy but Mittelafrika building (my personal goal at this stage of game) has been fraught with difficulties

difficulties of foreign competition, British (rather normal) as well as American (which shouldn't be) who both sent troops in coveted areas with colonial penetration
after setting missions in Portugal coveted territory, I had the bad surprise to no longer be able to build others, ditto for trade posts slightly later - bug ? hardcoded limit ?

I also noticed a great length and difficultiy to get exploration to work - is it low probability and bad luck ? I suspect some areas are already hardcoded to "resist "exploration till some date - all in all colonization is not easy, between rivals, timited number of actions, revolts , attrition .. and necessary wars to be able to conquer the province

AI action is mostly scripted, I had unpleasant surges (for the player,else they're good) in Nigeria and Port Moresby (the very eve of me declaring the area a protectorate) - and Britain masses troops in disputed area - Nigeria at least. it gave Britain lots of provinces control, limiting my actions , and control of towns (even when I previously had implanted mission, trade post and other buildings) once protectorate is declared, provinces slowly revert to protectorate power control, but not the cities - , prevernting some builds - a bug ?

also some explored areas already had British control, at 100% before I explore them - I thought exploration and revealed/hidden provinces were for all - am I wrong or is it a bug ?
Attachments
MittelAfrika.jpg
Annexed revolted provinces.jpg
july 1880 Germany.jpg
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
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Crixdaz
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Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:52 am

I've seen this problems with the rebels before. Most of times they don't get independency or return to their former owner. But when it happens the transfer doesn't work well. The ownership of the province change but not the city or the production sites, that returns to the old country.

Two examples from my current game:

-In the caucassus the russians cannot defeat the rebels and with time they defect to... the rebel nation!. The control of the province changes to no one when nations like Georgia or Armenia could been created:

Image

-A massive rebellion happens in most of Poland and the Baltic countries, but only Poland gets the independency and only in 2 provinces. Some provinces change to Poland later but how I said before: the province owner changes to Poland but no the production sites and the city that return to Russia. Final result, the russians can recover almost everything without troubles:

Image
Excuse my bad english, don't doubt to correct me ;)

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loki100
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Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:19 pm

re colonial events

I think exploration is just slow - sometimes its taken me 6/8 attempts at a particular province and rarely less than 3. But in some areas this didn't work at all (couldn't even play the card on an unexplored province). One I remember was all of central and western Australia but I later found (by using the 'reveal province command') were under full British control

I can confirm uncovering provinces that were under full control of another power - so either its WAD that you don't get to see their 'map' or its not working as designed. I'd suggest a fairly quick map spread would be the most realistic.

Some of the scripted surges check if another power has colonial control over a certain value - some don't. I'd suggest as part of the wider clean up that is another little thing to look over as it will stop colonies suddenly being treated as if they were unclaimed

edit - should add, I think the issue with the traders/missionaries etc is that you can have them all in play and if so can only add new ones once they have completed their time span. This is less common to see as you usually have a lot but I've found it a few times when I've been trying to establish CP across a large region
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Christophe.Barot
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Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:38 am

loki100 wrote:I can confirm uncovering provinces that were under full control of another power - so either its WAD that you don't get to see their 'map' or its not working as designed. I'd suggest a fairly quick map spread would be the most realistic.

Some of the scripted surges check if another power has colonial control over a certain value - some don't. I'd suggest as part of the wider clean up that is another little thing to look over as it will stop colonies suddenly being treated as if they were unclaimed

edit - should add, I think the issue with the traders/missionaries etc is that you can have them all in play and if so can only add new ones once they have completed their time span. This is less common to see as you usually have a lot but I've found it a few times when I've been trying to establish CP across a large region


yes, the colonial discovery is supposed to make province visible for all, but it seems it isn't - still if I take over britain to check, I have no change of view, I still have the german view of uncovered provinces - puzzling

you're right about the clean up

for missionaries and trade posts (merchants are ok), no all mine are unuised, can't play them, but have them in stock - there are littl discrepancies in conditions I coudl theoretically play some decisions (pacification notably, is proposed to areas I don't havbe troop enough, and not to some I have needed troops), but I can't place more in the map - is there an undisplayed limit to missions/trade posts i can have on the map ? would be in overflow - would make sense as of course, once my merchants have done their time, they disappear - well, it slows down my colonization, so ...
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
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Christophe.Barot
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Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:26 am

thanks for your input Crixdaz - yes there is problem cities reverting reverting back to normal owner

here is colonial situation in Nigeria, after my protectorate slowly gave me control of area (Lagos had 4% because of city, Britain had 96%, garrisoned with huge forces

[ATTACH]26208[/ATTACH]

note the 100% while city remained British - no garrison and all buildings were by me - no reverting to new owner

problem is, if you don't hold city too, you can't build there, no new economic item, no railway and so on ....

[ATTACH]26209[/ATTACH]

what is interesting is that, while I hardly fought to keep big strength to viev for regional control against British and Americans (zero PC always butt west virginia army still there) my presence can's shift the little spanish one, which is aBsent there and stuck forever in Congo it seems - still no Spanish PC

[ATTACH]26211[/ATTACH]
Attachments
Spanishforever.jpg
Lagos2.jpg
Lagos1.jpg
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

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Christophe.Barot
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Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:28 am

staying at colonial situation, impossible to build a single new mission or trade post, while conditions are met
[color="#FF0000"]is it an absolute limit , not to available decisions, but to missions and trade I can place on the map[/color], and then can I remove some to place others in new places ?

[ATTACH]26251[/ATTACH]

missions

[ATTACH]26252[/ATTACH]

trade posts


and to have a complementary view, situation in Oceania, have a look on buildings at Port Moresby, was declared a British protectorate when I had a crushing colonization advantage and was on eve of declaring a British protectorate myself - and conversely to Nigeria, not a single troop - may be a good thing to keep AI in the run, and reward timely, not ahead of phase, play - just quoted as a feature

[ATTACH]26253[/ATTACH]
Attachments
german pacific colonization.jpg
ditto for trade posts.jpg
no way placing new missions.jpg
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

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Christophe.Barot
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and now before leaving Africa

Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:35 am

An hyperactive player can always be very active and outpass AI usiually

before we leave Africa views on south Africa (high activity towards Botswana and Rhodesia - traders, buying lands ..)

Morocco is German (no Tangiers crisis) even if it is uncomfortable with Algeria wartime (real Bismarck warned, no colonies !)

and note west Africa, the conspicuous absence of progress of AI - comparted to mittelafrika - we slow down colonization,w e kill AI one

enjoy

[ATTACH]26254[/ATTACH]


[ATTACH]26255[/ATTACH]


[ATTACH]26256[/ATTACH]
Attachments
1880 AI absence of progress.jpg
1880 south africa.jpg
1880 ger morocco.jpg
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

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Jim-NC
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Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:03 pm

I believe there is a hard limit on the number of colonial buildings (misssions, trade pots, etc.). When you reach that limit, you can destroy some to build elsewhere. The game still shows the option to build the buildings, but you can't (even though you want to).
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.
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Christophe.Barot
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a little view on Diplomacy now

Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:37 pm

First german one let's see what german relations (before Russian-British war looks like, just a few turns ago, the remainder changed little)


[ATTACH]26263[/ATTACH]

as you can note, German diplomacy has been very successful and historical bismarckian system was recreated, and even beyond :

this is due to huge german activity - plese note that [color="#FF0000"]AI activity is low compared to possibilities, relatively passive[/color] - maximizing effect of :

- trade proposals (once established, not only you get an advantage in getting goods, which may be in short supply, and necessary
either to have your industry fully operating (or compensating your industry shortages, not much for germany who has a sound flow of manufactured goods, mechanical parts, steel and coal - iron and minerals are usually in abundant supply in markets, but for nations like Russia, it can prove crucial)
but also allow a maximum contentment (therefore production bonus and no strikes or social upheaval) for your population.
There is also the additional advantage that, if trade is effective, regular and large, your relations are going to slowly iomprove up to a very high point, where you can have alliance proposals - such was case for sweden - historically makes no sense as Swedes were very keen of their neutrality then, but is handy to have as guarantees some additional flexibility for fleets, benevolent attitude, and continuity of trade agreement, so access to generous iron, mineral, timber and food resources (plus one rare nation who has a surplus of luxury goods)

- support - there is a trade off between risk losing prestige would support is required in crisis and promises not kept, or support is ignored (Britain did .. fools !) and improvement of relations. as it is an unilateral gesture (you don't turn down a support), which will, repetead, vastly improve relations before they become snowballing towards excellent, support is basic tool of diplomacy, prepares for state visit and alliances

- state visits - will be turned down if relations are bad [color="#FF0000"](snowball effect[/color]), but can improve already good relations, preparing alliances - and they are cheap diplomtas wise

- alliances : not only defensive alliances have a natural effect and virtue on security - you may get allies in a war - but they are not granted - and you may get an automatic CB on enemies, so not only you can strike them (positive effects on VP, security, and fun..), but actually you should as there is prestige penalty for not declaring war, so, don't do like me, monitor each turn declarations of war, they come unexpected

but it has also a powerful deterrent action - not foolproof, but usually it will really slow down other powers agressive actions - not only for you, but for your allies -[color="#FF0000"] it may have unwanted effects still, as France or Italy will be wary to declare on Austria by fear of prussian or Russian reaction, Or Prussia may be frozen in place, fearing another Olmutz while your army just parades in Tsarkoe Selo, defend crimea, or crush Turks in balkan and caucasus - making historical chains derail without any intent to do so[/color]

it also fosters good relations like none as [color="#FF0000"]system presently snowballs too much[/color] - alliance guarantees a permanent 98 to +100 relationship, with all advantages lnked to them

- an additional advantage , for me (many like the system), is that it prevents you to get crisis with many powerful nations, if you hold this as an advantage, as I personally do. While crisis module has been greatly improved in the past, and no doubt will be in future (in my present game I was nicely surprised to see it operate on sound historical grounds - which was unusual in my games - a British Russian crisis around Kabul - and have a direct effect on game - war, and not just the usual VP reaffectation) - , I find that its main effect is to act like a big VP randomizer, redispatching victory points rather randomly - and preferentially to most powerful nation involved - usually Britain. It is conceived (for obvious technical reasons) as a stand alone autonomous module, usually rather disconnected from all game field variables - objectives valuie, alliances, military strength, national morale- involving autonomous notions (dominance, "just cause" - for whom ?) rather disconnected from game data ( I can evaluate allies, local or global military strength, imperialism, diplomatic value.. but dominance ...)-, therefore for me rather opaque (I don't mean void of internal logic, certainly, but for me , opaque), and that - programmed by advance like a drone, makes me feel deprived of any influence on outcome, no possibility to cut and run, back down, or choosing between war (perhaps at great disadvantage) and "dishonour", "choice" of system, (for which, conversely to all other aspects of game, my historical references are helpless to guide me) is automatically loss of prestige. For a player, it may be irritating to try to maximize victory by sound play, just to see your rank ruined by a dice roll on which you have no influence (barely on your crisis, not at all on others).
My main grievance is it is not interactive, unlike historical crisis were, but such was initial design, for very good reasons i guess, and having an alternative system where you could clearly[B[color="#008000"]] weigh on outcome, either as main protagonist, or as ally[[/color]/B], is reserved to [color="#008000"]scripted [/color]ones - with options and agents - [color="#008000"]some excellent ones exist - more will be created,[/color] but changing system is out of reach (coding time cost), especially as many like it. But if you don't - then alliances should spare you some helpless randomizing VP dice rolls ..

all this being said, germany, because of her strong diplomacy rate (It is Bismarck, remember) and other characteristics I don't know of - gets an allocation of 40 (!! ) diplomats per 6 months - twice Russia's - - of course some are used for unification regional decisions, but believe me, [color="#008000"]you can do a lot with 80 diplomats a year and using almost all of them, especially if you have clues on german geopolitical interests and historical strategies as AI Diplobias seems to work fine there - at least before you get close to British VP level and get a badboy[/color]

you can [color="#008000"]ally with Russia, Austria[/color] ([color="#FF0000"]I could get NGF without a fight[/color], therefore had no grounds to fight Austria - except training my generals - why break an alliance to smash my former ally to get allied again, with more difficulty - later- at worst a stupidity, at best an exploit (I don't like that) -[color="#FF0000"] I wonder if this facility is desirable gamewise[/color] (historically, looks like Austria giving up) . In the plus makes unification more easy and frequent -in the minus side, may end up rather ahistorical as then mlany may choose the "pacific union", dispensing themselves from the cost of a risky even war with Austria.- possible exploit for weakening deliberaztely Italy [color="#008000"]and Italy [/color]- Italy is tricky as, script aside, her alliance presently depends a lot on the relations you have with France, her present ally (+100 usual between them)

I got her, so I have 3 allies with +100 relationships -[color="#FF0000"] will be stable no rubberband lower[/color] - I also have a treaty with [color="#008000"]Sweden [/color](effect of trade) and recently another one with [color="#008000"]Ottoman[/color], as I can't get one with Rumania (badboy ?) and it doesn't seem to make a difference in Russian relations. I had also with german minors, but we have merged now.

for non allies, I maintained my British relations to a sound level. even France, after declaration of war, and my Alsace-Lorraine ownership, hates other more than me . Only japan is somehow hostile, but I don't really care as it is Russia which matters politically/militarily, and as a second actor China (if China can export silk, or let me invest in it without expropriating immediately)

see you soon for follw up of serial

[ATTACH]26265[/ATTACH]
Attachments
1880-04-GERMAN RELATIONS.jpg
1880-04-dip-GER.jpg
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

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Christophe.Barot
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Location: Paris (France)

diplomatic situation of Austria

Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:28 am

first a little view of present 1880 Europe, will help you understanding my comments - remember, Crimean War, Risorgimento, 7 weeks war (never happened), 1870 and russo turkish war are behind us (american civil war too, but you won't see it on the map) - will show you egypt, far east and persia in due time

first, state of Europe, playground of 6 of the 8 great Powers + of Ottoman

[ATTACH]26267[/ATTACH]

then let's see what happened to Austria, and why

[ATTACH]26268[/ATTACH]

basically Austrian diplomacy is based on a "3 emperor alliance system"

Austria never broke with Russia - Russia didn't sent troops through Dobrudja towards Balkans - or quickly and was lucky - so no ultimatum and no breaking of alliance

I never broke with Austria - while I planned a long term war against Austria, slowly closing with Russia, closing with Italy as much as I could (her bond with France was now unbreakable) - but when time came, I had so optimized diplomatic actions for unification that it fired by itself and North german federation formed, Austria de facto gracefully withdrawing without a fight or a war- only drawback is that [color="#FF0000"]diplomatic unifications event (less prussian loyalty versus more prussian control fired even when full unification took place, creating rebels instead of pro habsburg[/color], but that is another story, esay to fix with a script)

Austria was of course hostile to Italy and France, since the war I provoked by script (i hoped to test unification and help Italy and france gain their historical provinces - Austrian army dwarfed theirs (France was bled white in Ukraine, and Austria mobilized) - this [color="#FF0000"]war let unrepairable marks[/color] - no territorial loss, but relations never get back to normal - has a logic for Italy, as Austria keeps her national provinces, but is groundless for France (even if as a german player I could enjoy it, I would better have faced logical reactions - with Russian allaince, Russia covered a non exuistant threat in 1870.

her bad relations with Britain derive from her alignment with Russia - Britain arch enemy and target in my game - I guess, and with USA both from her authoritarian regime nature and bad relations with US friends - japanese relations are unimportant, and likely coming from indirect effect with third parties too I guess.

it would be good to expose you the present ratio of strength, knowing that till recently Austrian had no more than 60% of german strnegth and britain barely more - while those countries had some military build up (Britain mobilized), my choice was to let them catrch up, as I had fully built may German corps (not the german states ones) and I had better reserving my recovery possibility, given that German/Prussian corps were better than German minors ones, and there is sometimes a penalty for commanding them, to those as capacity of command is limited. still on,e can see that France didn't stand a chance, and that Russia could theoretically fend off and repel british troops (alas her main strength face Turks in caucasus (as they did in 1878) and russia doesn't seem eager to move it towards central Asia.

here it is

[ATTACH]26284[/ATTACH]

Japan military is boosted as I built them a fleet for testing my script, so must have the best modern fleet of the world (removed the minimal date condition to test the script)

Germany has no historical interest for Kuweit - [color="#008000"]would better be Baghdad and btw could we have AI having interest to protect allies objectives like her own ones[/color]

the 700 British prisoners result from a bad click I made, was on a tribal nation flag, clicked while britain was here, and must have declared war to britain instead -[color="#FF0000"] damn, no confirmation[/color] - ended it by script ...


btw a slightly annoying feature - [color="#FF0000"]when you build a depot or a fort or something in an area, the objective is now referenced under name of build, and no longer geographical name[/color] (las ones are german colonies, oceania and Africa)
Attachments
1880 comparizon of powers.jpg
1880-04-dip-AUS.jpg
1880 political Europe.jpg
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

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Christophe.Barot
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:55 pm
Location: Paris (France)

Italian situation

Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:19 pm

Italian situation is this one :

diplomatically she has two allies - France and Germany (was a hell to be accepted, but once "in ".....

all and any others are enemies - Austria for obc vious reasons , Britain and Russian relations come from France ones, USA ones, guess come from indirect effect as Italy never had a problem with United states

[ATTACH]26285[/ATTACH]


Italy has also united Rome by her own means, but has stopped there, not only two sicilies, but Parma and Tuscany wasn't attempted


[ATTACH]26286[/ATTACH]
Attachments
1880-04-Italie.jpg
1880-04-dip-ITA.jpg
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

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Christophe.Barot
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Location: Paris (France)

Russia now

Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:15 pm

Here are Russia alliance system
as we have seen with other nations, Russia is part of a 3 Emperor system (rather classical, while I'd believe a break with Austria would be more the rule, but I don't have enough statisticjks to back it up), and is Britain Arch Enemy

following a crisis around kabul, Britain pushed till Khiva now reconquered by the Czar

France and great Britain are Russia enemies til crimean war ([color="#FF0000"]French relations, like Britain, never repaired[/color]) Italian relations are bad since both Crimean war and Italian French alliance

the infraction comes from memel, whose revolt was crushed by Prussian army - Prussia then took control, and wasn't given back by system to Russian ally , as russians had zero loyalty and ethnics there I guess (we should check nationality de jure and fix that I guess), I fixed that sort of things by a script - but hasn't been appmlied here - THEN the 100% rebel loyalty turned a 100% Russian loyalty (but too late for transfer) as a result, system crerates hostility (overcome by allaince effects) as I occupy a Russian national province .... not wrong, but I cannnot do anything (as a player, not as a scripter) about that :(

[ATTACH]26288[/ATTACH]


While Russian main army gathers around Saratov (isn't it a bit far north), British main army, barely smaller, is besieging the Russian part of Persia

[ATTACH]26289[/ATTACH]

Persia shouldn't be carved like that until 1907, but is result of a test I made of an event script (british Russian 1907 agreement) - I wonder if it plays a role in present war - actually event slightly improved their relationships, but [color="#FF0000"]given the high level of hostility, effect has been absolutely marginal[/color]


[ATTACH]26290[/ATTACH]
Attachments
british concentration in persia.jpg
Miliutin army concentrating in Samara.jpg
1880-04-dip-RUS.jpg
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

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Crixdaz
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Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:31 pm

The lack of success of Piamonte to unify Italy seems habitual. In my actual ottoman game, the situation in Italy is exactly the same, only the former Papal States have joined to Piamonte.
Excuse my bad english, don't doubt to correct me ;)

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Christophe.Barot
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Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:40 pm

yes, Italy not unifying under AI seems standard - I thought only obstacle was chain of events, and i discovered with horror a solid historical participation to Crimean war destroyed all chances of successful risorgimento (France bled white), added to fact that mobilizing Austria is a killer - clearly things to fix here

how do Prussia fare in your game, has German unification failed , and in which step (I tend to think Austria is a bigger obstacle than France, as historically was - in my Russian game, prussia didn't even try)
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

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Christophe.Barot
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Location: Paris (France)

France and Britain now

Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:43 pm

here are the diplomatic relationships of western powers


[ATTACH]26291[/ATTACH]

as we see before, an iron alliance with Italy (not ironed enough to have Italy DOW on me in 1870, but we had a +100 relationship too) the abysmal relation with Austria (Risorgimento, present war) is logical
US poor relationships derive from Crimean separate peace with Britainand excellent US british relationships
not many like Japan
France is suprisingly forgiving to germany - not only I took her (only ! :neener :) Alsace-Lorraine, but I'm at war with them as well - Still, it's the conservative Habsburg who's hated - must be ideological ;)
after all France and I are both revisionist powers, while Austria stands for conservatism of Vienna congress ... still France should know by now that we don't revise in same direction :neener:

[ATTACH]26292[/ATTACH]

British US relation skyrockets (historically sound), that much ? special relationships, that early ? OK
small wonder to see Russia where she is
was 3 turns ago, since then my relation dropped to slightly negative, consequence of my Russian allaince and support
Britain never forgave France for british soldiers "betrayed" and left behind alone fighting the Czar ... thousand miles from front, in India :w00t: rather vindicative, the Queen
[color="#FF0000"]something must clearly be done for alliance game in general[/color]
Italy is disliked as France ally, Austria ? remained Russian ally, too , me ? rather OK, is it because future kaiser is Victoria's grandson ? I'd tend to believe hyperactive diplomacy shadows AI inertia (a support or state visit is cheap when you have diplomats)
japan is "less disliked" here ...
Attachments
1880-04-dip-GBR.jpg
1880-04-dip-FRA-.jpg
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

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Kensai
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Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:15 am

I think there should be events that rectify extreme situations, at least for the AI. There is a command to run an event only when the faction in question is under AI. This can be the primary condition. The secondary can be an evaluation command on whatever: contentment, money, militancy, relations, etc. If too high or too low, an event should fire to bring it back close to normality. If it is meant to fall down or rise up again, eventually it will do. But it seems that extreme cases are rather usual in a long game.

All in all, wars gone wrong (as France in Crimea) should not break chains further on.
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Christophe.Barot
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Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:12 am

fully agree with you

guess we still have some massive scripting work ;)

my problem was rather persistant intermediary situation the player has no action on (I have revolters in saxony bavaria baden wurtemberg which are a legacy of unification actions which happened after unification - NGF at least) - I had read in apatch announcement that now revolt loyalties would decrease very slowly with time, but they don't at all, ditto for france as far as I check (less regularly) no longer works in 1.03e ?

you'll be able to check directly by now ;)

actually I don't think war went wrong for France in crimea (Russia immediately let the hook off Turkey (another separate peace), France duly invaded Ukraine and I seem to remember Russian strength dropped quite quickly - she [color="#FF0000"]just was bled white[/color], which is sufficient to lose next war unless she can make good for her losses in time (and catch up other powers progress meanwhile) - the other problem was [color="#FF0000"]mobilization - Austria almost doubled her units number at a sudden, France didn't ![/color] - lol, had to monitor each recruit to barely catch up with Austria in 1866 ... which proved unneeded (better too much unification possibilities than not enough I wonder how well Prussian AI fare now)

- needless to say, with Moltke, seasoned generals (but Moltke was enough) who crushed any Poles and revolters in view (I think experience gain is a nice feature, and rather historical, French army officers gained field experience (baptism of fire) in colonies or numerous Napoleonic wars, Russians had caucasus, British had their vast victorian Empire , and were usually better than were in Crimea, other will find conflicts - crushing revolters works too - if you storm a liberal held city, you may as well shoot some franc tireurs later, better that only kriegspiel - I'm not usually that fan of rolegame, but this feature, I like) and a 2:1 troops ratio (with or without allied but uncontrolled german minors) France 1870 was a cakewalk ! even easier than my Turkish wars as Russian. Only Paris siege was long - which is historically and balance wise perfect ! :thumbsup:
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

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Crixdaz
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Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:16 am

Christophe.Barot wrote:how do Prussia fare in your game, has German unification failed , and in which step (I tend to think Austria is a bigger obstacle than France, as historically was - in my Russian game, prussia didn't even try)


I've seen in the log that the events for the wars against Austria and France happen. In the first case the event gives a casus-belli to both countries, in the second one only France gets a casus-belli. I guess It work as it should but Prussia doesn't makes a move and still have good relations with Austria.

The Crimean war events seems to work, both UK and France enters in the war in the beginning. Later Piamonte helps to this effort, and after everybody it's in peace with Russia (1855 aprox.) it fires an event called Paris treaty. The only effect of the event it was if I remember correctly was to give 50 VP to France.

Also besides than the events in Crimea fires, the performance of the IA wasn't good. I playing as ottoman was the first to make peace with Russia, after almost a year without advances for the russians in the frontier. UK and France makes peace two years later and Piamonte enters in war when I was in peace already with Russia. Both previous things have no sense, the main conflict is the ottoman-russian, the fight must end when they reach an agreement.
Excuse my bad english, don't doubt to correct me ;)

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Christophe.Barot
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just a few words for Extra European powers

Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:19 pm

[color="#40E0D0"]US[/color] - great industrial power, my massive german purchases (basically US can begin, like south american states) as a huge raw material and tropical goods supplier, then with money earned by this large and regular demand, speed up his development - cotton has many competitors, but cigars and tropical fruits are in high demand, and US are one of the rare countries offering a large array of goods you're happy to buy - US are presently the only large supplier of coal, with my germany, coal is in short supply, and with industrializatiuon, railway, and war fleets, demand can only increase

[ATTACH]26312[/ATTACH]

[color="#008000"]with large production capability of coal for Germany, Britain, and US[/color], secondary Russia - supplemented by excellent intrinsic productivity (weberian model hasn't fell in deaf ears for the Philippes and Fer) of the three former and population, [color="#008000"]the historical trends which led to actual hierarchy of power is respected[/color] (France must have a better productivity than Austria, could someone confirm, and has good start industry + access by colonization to colonial goods, but is handicapped by coal in shorter supply and should have a less dynamic demography (could someone confirm ?) in game - Austria should be handicapped by a productivity superior to russia but inferior to western powers (I operated many Austrian mines, Coal potential isn't an Austrian problem) - japan (late industrial start, shortage of coal and raw materials) and Italy (short supply of coal, should be technically late because of literacy - cause of mezzogiorno, Piedmonte and Lombardia are OK, modern developed Europe then) - somebody could confirm - not Russian level of course, but low - are in the bottom (of still great powers)

[color="#008000"]that is excellent and how things should indeed be [/color]- nothing to change structurally ! and congrats to Loki for proving that even Italy, lrast of great powers, can be turned into a powerhouse by a dedicated meticulous player (corollary, we must help AI whenever needed)

US have duly crushed the confederates and reunited country - had not the problems encountered in my Russian game (was beta test, and chaotic wars time before AIbias, agressivity towards neighbours set high, they declared war to britain, who invaded half the United states - impressive - no gain, but lay waste - if you ever want a winning british 1776 variant when this "thin red line" invaded a full continent (rebels, pff :neener :) , try this version :mdr: - has long been corrected, was beta testing you know you try, you observe, you correct - tries can be spectacular sometimes - so, real game, US are OK, at peace, spain duck shooting will happen only in almost 20 years

they still sent a corps in gold coast, which went then to occupy an area in Nigeria and is now starving in niger desert since it was declared a german protectorate (presence of british troops occupying cities and loss of use of missions and trade posts slowed me a lot too) I guess this weird AI presence[color="#FF0000"] can come either from a definition overlook of areas of interest[/color] (i'd need to know more of the code) [color="#FF0000"]or an incommensurate taste for British food[/color] - especially british military rations (!!!) as US and britain have mutual supply agreements - (they didn't feed Yankee Army of Virginia at home ? - they arrived there during civil war ! deserters ?) I guess it can be fixed in either case

[color="#FF0000"]Japan[/color] has now a combat fleet since I applied the script to test it and didn't eraze it - saw a battleship cruising near Africa - but that's all that they have - chinese concessions and diverse far east scripts were applied in a save of my Russian game - they'll develop with Meiji - I should check if the fleet doesn't txes her coal consumption (check the Japan coal mine built with them in Korea is still japanese, and check if this sis sufficient) too much and fix it - anyway, natural japanese development wasn't great in my Russian game, without scripts, I fear Japan AI has little chance, if any, to raise at great power level and beat Russia

[ATTACH]26313[/ATTACH]

why Japan is sending a battleship so far from bases is a mystery for me - [color="#FF0000"]possibly a high priority to trade fleet protection[/color] (wehre does he have some ?) else, there is likely [color="#FF0000"]some checking and fixing about areas of interest and action[/color] (not southern of Philipines and eastern of hawai, clearly, in the era covered by game - drop the Kuching objective once and for all)
btw Japan is friendly to US (OK) and (abnormal) slightly hostile to britain (germany and others is OK, france result from indirect billiard effect system) which shouldn't be - guess it comes from general impopularity of britain (Russia and allies, breaking with France)

[color="#FFFF00"]China[/color] has crushed Taipings - a major departure from my Russian game (guess it has been fixed in a patch - some taipings surviving till end in recent games someone ?) and my massive investments (silk, but also tea, rice) - contentment goal with high priority remember, as germany is a powerhouse, smal investments wasted in China have a tolerable cost - have helped her as she consistently nationalized them - this plus the huge access to german goods have certainly helped her to get a large above average development - this plus large access to world goods with german active merchants - carving will come later (at least Quingdao without new scripts), as will come a few cultural exchanges, with german teachers specialized in history of antiquity (lesson 1 "what the Huns were like") replacing the missionaries - I can't build missions any longer, and they have a regrettable tendancy to murder mine as well as my diplomats ...

[color="#DAA520"]Ottoman Empire[/color] is now my ally, Russians don't seem to take offence of it and RTW war is over, I won't prevent Bulgaria to exist, I forced the 1877 war, but Russians, who had a global (2:1 roughly) as well as Caucasus superiority made immediate peace, and Bulgarians never showed up (If they're keen of their wives and life of their children, they did well) - locally Turks had a 6000 or so force (now in Bosnia watching for rebels- oh, forgot, and greeks too) so locally the Russian 2000 ukrainian force of - was it Archduke Mikhail - couldn't match - dunno Russian calculations - Perhaps british bonds with ottoman and British in Khiva played a role. there is also Greek forces wandering here and there . at some point, doesn't remember, Greece declared on Ottoman (must have been during Crimea I guess, as [color="#008000"]AI checks toroughly ratio of strength[/color] - [color="#008000"]a big quality of AI[/color] she is not suicidal, a triple hooray for Philippe and Pocus, I have seen AI which were, Athena isn't ) or the reverse (any other time, except the brief turns between Russian "forced" dow and Russia suing for peace). of course this war goes nowhere (Ottoman can't be beaten, no part of Greece is annexable) and drags forever. Guess they'll have to wait Chinese buying the Pirea, me buying islands of them, and some colonial power fearing loan payment default forcing banks to expropriate houseowners to realize they're living in colonial 19th century and that the use was to end fruitless wars THEN ! (if somebody hates my wits, just pass me a private note, I'll remove this part)

[ATTACH]26315[/ATTACH]

You'll note Abdulkerim Nadir pacha strength - strong but with concentration of strength and no British war, should be "affordable" by Russian army - [color="#FF0000"]do we have a problem of military priorities here ?[/color] giving military priorities according to political alignments ? preparing events for AI (helping AI concentrate in balkans before 1877 ? possibly helping an AI more than another (Japan in 1905 ?) to favour historical outcome ? to weigh and decisions to make
anyway, would require tough programming - [color="#008000"]I'd bet something has been done for Crimean war and British interest to protect Constantinople[/color]
for those who have the (Albanese in this area ?) eagle eye, yes, you have German expeditionary corps here - to crush rebels - protect the goodies I seized from them ([color="#FF0000"]an AI returning assets to national owner when retaken by ally would be nice,[/color] expect what is on Austrian soil be Austrian, on Russian soil be Russian - nationalization is fine idea and fix, but at 100% relationships, doesn't happen) and get experience (for the 2 stars general here, not the leaderless force of course - btw, now that I'm at war with France, I should rapatriate him for the duration of campaign, overlooked exiled forces , sheesh ...

back to ottoman economy, I used my trade agreement (and good relationships, they nationalized my opium, damn) to develop tobacco and even a coal site, but it's on strike, verdammt !!
Attachments
western balkans 1880.jpg
Japanese fleet.jpg
trade1.jpg
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

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Kensai
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Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:42 pm

Scripted historical wars should start and end ONLY when the same (more or less) conditions that fired them in real life are met. If not, they should not. The player can live with his own schemes if other circumstances are present. Much more important, almost imperative, is to have the ending events for wars that got out of hand. For example, if the Crimean war has not finished in its historical date, plus 1-2 years, it should stop via a script. This is imperative for wars that are between AI nations. This is easy to implement thanks to the AI player evaluation condition.

In an ideal game, if we had unlimited time, there should be a multitude of historical and what if scripted events to abstract a nation through this era. Do not underestimate how big of an effort this is, because every decisional event is in theory a fork of the historical game and the ramifications can soon get out of hand. As a proposal (in my humble opinion): At a first stage, we need to make sure the events that are already in are working flawslessly and have all the right conditions so they don't fire (or end) inappropriately. At a next level, we need to add events that finish scripted wars or situations that might not make sense in a game where the human player (or the AI) has made other choices. At a last level, we could do alternate reality events that explore "what if" situations as I've done with my Shogun Defiance Mod which provides for challenging scenarios to keep the player busy. This last part is not imperative, but adds to the general interest.
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Christophe.Barot
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Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

besides the usual "i agree with you" or variant "I agree with you mostly" followed by explainations, pocus has coded a "war weariness" and it now increses with time, very slowly (2% per turn) problem is we don't have access not only to code (we wouldn't be able to, at leas tme) but to information of code, basic value

optimally we should be able to tune it, and condition it to new events like big battles or warscore changes - we must avoid both pitfalls - having wars dragging forever - and having wars suddenly stopped by a draw when victory was at hand - this needs also to check victory conditions (no longer Alsace + reunion offered to Prussia please) and set up a global peace or at least

by script for clearly designated wars we can force it - and did it of course - see Balkan wars, 1870 endgame, berlin congress event and others - either initial ones, or the ones we did

but yes, we have to check historically some conditions for general scripts, forcing peace with all warring parties (without frustrating player) and allowing territorial changes under some conditions (balkan nation appearance, balkan wars, italian or german unity deserve a second, or even a third chance)
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

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Kensai
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Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:05 pm

I find that most players are happy with scripted events, because it adds suspense. Thankfully, AGEOD players are mostly mature players who don't (at least not mostly) find a game fun only when they can paint the entire map their banner's color. This means that most players, in my experience, don't have problems with the constrains of scripts. They can always have the initiative when they want (forging CBs, etc) but appreciate "gliding" through the historical events as they appear in the game.

The Crimean War is a great example. It can go well, but it can go horribly wrong as well. If it goes to a standstill, players become frustrated (and ask for ending scripts manually). But let's do one thing at a time, as you greatly explained in your mail. In my opinion we should start from what we have (the already written events) and then do what we can (with our own scripted events). As much as Pocus wants to help us, at this stage we have to count on our own facilities. Thankfully, the Athena syntax provides many tools for evaluation and action. Things that have to be changed in the engine's code might have to wait a little bit more.

Christophe, do you have an account on the AGEOD Wiki? We might as well do stuff there too. It has come to my attention that there are, for example, some missing commands. A Wiki is an ideal medium to share editable ideas. Together with a common Dropbox folder could work marvels for our productivity and collaboration, as explained in the mail.
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Christophe.Barot
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Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:09 pm

absolutely agree

potential help, no from Pocus, already the lazy one had to sleep two hours a night or so for months, and as a result Diplomacy went unfinished, what was he paid for - did he think fixing bugs and balancing game full time is an excuse, so do not count on him

[ATTACH]26316[/ATTACH]

more seriously, I guess he is on another project - (hint AGEOD is always on another project anyway) - for potential coding help please check my private mail and see who gets it (this being said, diplomacy may be a third priority - as length of turns and debugging data inaccuracies or broken chains may come first - but forever wars enter this category)

I don't have an account on AGEOD Wiki alas, and , while I had basics in programming (was cobol, and long time ago), I'm somehow familiar with general principles of analysis and coding - knowing tools, and mastering them is another thing - I have already made requests for extending command, you'll find them into the wishlist thread, and diverse remarks

I share your views on motivation of our niche players - It's a privilege to work for such ones, and with a team who's history minded too, could hardly be totally in phase with purely sandbox oriented ones (no blame intended, just isn't my stuff ..) EU was a marvel, but I went mad when Britain offered Ireland to Russia to get peace ...

I agree with your method, and intend to mix both

- a "personal creativity priority" (I have listed a huge load of geopolitical behaviour missing to AI and that scripts would help, sometimes i wonder how I can put such subtle reasons in a machine, then "the light s comes, it strucks me", and i rush to script it before I forget the idea, such are the Italian or Russian turning point events - many will complete them, the balkan events - the far east system, - soon VP scripts depending on objectives, especially allied controlled objectives (idea is that Russia earns points when allied Serbia (not Russia) holds Belgrade, or Belgium Brussels for British (or saxony exists for austria), the grouinds of british german rivalry, plan a guide of AI diplomatic coding (even if never coded, gives criteria and methodthat can be helpful for what to script or even player styrategy .. will be clearer when i"'ll wxwrite it) they're both prototypes, samples, and remainder of having to script all the remainder ones - makes me jump from one subject to another - most are unfinished at this stage - but it keeps my motivation high (when I don't feel like completing the Austrian reaction facing Prussian agression on a german minor, or extending it to french reaction would prussia cross the main, or british in belgium, then I go for analysis of my game in system problematics, and occasionally I play a turn or two :) ) and ensures I don't let a subject unraised (here the VP unbalance I perceive between industry and objectives)

- the need to complete things, priority too it's not enough to launch ideas, and even for example write one, two, a few end of wars scripts (the balkan war ones, we have to incorporate the work Loki did on Bulgarian victory in the second one, and a standstill if Ottoman wins the first one- in which case the second one has no ground to happen, was a fight on the spoils - the two I wrote for Crimea, following Principalties crisis - had you the time to have a look on it ? - you're very busy yourself -plus the 1867 1870 Villafranca and modification of 1877 Phillipe script - moving sava where it belongs - Austria - which reminds me it was done for 1880 scenario but we have Novipazar to fix and Rumelia provisio to make 1885- you'll get here - + Dobrudja provisios too, as conquest by Russia creates unwanted effects) but we have to complete the list, transfer script to excel files, test them (sometimes we have bad surprises - don't work, problem of syntax) -and write ALL text and provide images - you already know that - you do that for your Austrian domination mod , and Hofstadter law .... guess like me, you've alife and a work besides, whatever our game and history passion is


for now, Im mostly in census and sample writing part, but there are parts we'll have to complete rather soon. Of course scripts may be self sufficient, but it's a bit a pity to influence Italian AI to get a sound diplomatic behaviour - allaince like, to forget to do the same for, let's say france or Austria. It's a bit like missions, Players love them, but some complain some are out of reach - and they cover only the early game
Attachments
slave.jpg
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

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Christophe.Barot
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Location: Paris (France)

Let's have a look on economy

Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:42 pm

it is almost a real AAR you know, except you have it a bit simplified, almost 30years in a go as a resumee - but gives the big trends and noticeable features

a) How to make a powerhouse :

I thought Russia had potential for building a powerhouse - coal fields, huge population, large internal market, access to many natural resources, it is nothing besides germany (remember, germany adds to huge population, more coal, an excellent productivity, less need for railway - still I added more to maximize tropical goods production and contentment, or minerals production (needed for my HUGE industry) and ensure mobility of my army (i can move swiftly a full army by rail, which, with allies allow me to move almost from Lorraine to Balkans and from memel to Dalmatia in one turn (perhapps not from Lorraine, but from berlin, breslau or Konigsberg, be sure)

you won't have yerar by year detail, just it was a balance between profitable resources - has been Textile in addition of Luxury goods for me, for long, then evolved with market - and , as said the 19th century german economist Karl M... "build the material base, the infrastructure on which build the capitalist social relationships - superstructure", in clear heavy industry, that is : coal, steel, manufactured goods, mechanical parts (electric parts later), iron, minerals - buy them when you need, produce them if you can, it's usually cheaper when you produce them yourself (else, buy), give work and increase contentment, and if you produce them yourself, you're first served

that means A LOT micromanagement, you build trade fleets too,
-you ensure the goods which are in rare supply and you produce to be all bought - you buy them to everyone, redispatch them ensuring 98% of needs are satisfied (not 100%, offer and e demand, price rise, even if rubberband has been implemented)
- from time to time you buy coal steel or manufactured goods by regional decision, will make investment cheaper for you- rubberband implemented too, with deflation, you're going to lower world prices, but depression is for all, cost cutting is for you only ! - avoids inflation - arbitration to make between investment and income - you'll pilot by sight
- you buy and redispatch goods everywhere, when there is more need than you produce, you buy, when you produce enough for your demand, no need, make your market available, and make trade treaties
- no need to create shortages - if prices are low for a good, buy it largely, and invest prioritary elsewhere, still, if you can produce it yourself , produce, a slight benefit for you is betetr than a slight benefit elsewhere - if prices are high, produce, buy and resell, - your fleet will gain a margin - and satisfy most demand - will make a hub of your country - and if most demand is satisfied, other nations will produce most goods in demand, therefore alleviating scarcities and allowing you to maximize population contentment, therefore productivity
- you balance your builds into consumption goods and heavy industry - depends on demand and your industrialization need

you should get, by careful micromanaging (full review of world market for each good every turn, large use of F4, T, B , occasionally F1 and closing factories when occasionally needed - barring stock constituting) a reral powerhouse (in 30 years at lest)

privilege private money to state funds, limit taxes, you have army, research and other needs, so balance at best

when you can, even if no immediate need, lauch industrial builds for future needs - you may not need a coal mine now, but it will become necessary in the future - stockpiling money which will attrite is a poor choice - don't come into debt and provoke inflation

do this (boring ?) task during 30 years, and final result will be impressive



this is coal production, it is slightly increased by temporary occupation but basically marginal - what matters is that Germany spared, built, spared, built in all and every german spot available, then used all her coal mine capability to invest in her economic partners : Austria, Russia, Belgium (one spot available) and even one in Ottoman Empire, as coal is likely to be the limiting factor of RUNNING industrial capability - close the tap, and foreign industry will run half speed, be in shortage andyour own industry will run half speed

minerals hunger has been alleviated, besides home development, by intense colonial activity (Morocco, Südwest Afrika, even infringing on normal Portuguese area), I ferared an iron hunger, but it seems OK - roughly Germany has nearly all other needed resources, with slight import needs (especially after unification), and of course, taking over allied ones when I crushed revolters helped germany somehow (and guess handicapped a bit our allies - taking over was a nice bonus, but goal was training generals, remaining is , well, comfort)

I won't enter in details of market evolution, suffice to say that world market surpluses vary with time, and that monitoring prices, needs, offer and demand help a lot, usually coal is lacking in the long run, manufactured goods may lack at some time, not at others, basic consumption goods are abundant at first, then rarefies as population grows faster than economy, therefore early game problem is getting good prices and customers for his production to get money to invest and grow, late game problem is to get enough goods, and diverse enough to keep contentment growing, a hard task in endgame. usually all rare luxury and tropical goods are in short supply, so are wine and fruit. timber and food may vary, food becoming in short supply as game advabces - in my german game textile was rare at start, then abundant, then cycles; minerals and steel vary. iron is usually abundant, and so are minerals and mechanical parts at start, after as game progresses, they are more and more needed.

after, it depends on stage and activity - consumption goods are always needed - as game progresses technically, more coal, and chemicals, industrial parts, and then electric parts are needed, for example operating advanced fishyards is incredibly more coal consuming than operating basic ones (you just need money, and will get more by selling production) - cost can even be a deterrent to modernize mines, or shortage of crucial production goods can event prevent modernizing - last stages of economy are more difficult for AI - some catch 22 situations can arise , and priority to profitable goods, needed for morale (cars, planes, more luxury goods) can siphon off rare production goods (mechanical parts, minerals, electric parts, coal, possibly steel or manufactured goods), making economy, or at least growth, come to a halt

coal hunger is imho uneluctable, is certainly a needed limiting factor and balancing tool - conversely, too much a shortage could result in sort of monopoly of coal supply, unbalancing game, and strangulating Japan, Italy, France (possibly handicaping Tussia) other nations are less coal/activity vulnerable - so there is a balance to strike

balancing economy is a tricky task - on one hand, a human played nation WILL become a powerhouse, an early powerhouse - so trying to harmstring economy excessively may result in human player monopolizing resources and AI starving, no good - or a beginner, not tempted by micromanaging, finding development too hard (players beginning in 1850 with Italy, Japan, or russia will certainly understand what I mean). another point is that[color="#008000"] economic resources have to be taylored to nation role and missions. [/color]

besides industrial needs steel is needed for railroad warships and new economic facilities (especially factories), the remainder , including army , consume little, coal is necessary to operate industry, modern warships as well as modern trade ships, and railroad - consumption can skyrocket with a powerful navy (the one who'll sink the enemy wooden one) and a vast and efficient railroad net. modernizing mines is a need, but shortage of coal or mechanical part may force their closing. while finished products are the ones supplying big income, it's the intermediary goods which allow industrial growth - if a shortage happens, growth halts at best,a large part of industrial activity at worst. I have seen british industry stagnate in two games. and manufactured goods serve for all, industry, economy, military, and regional decisions, you can't possibly have too much of it.


[ATTACH]26328[/ATTACH]

Britain has indeed big needs - is supposed to build a powerful modernized navy , which she doesnt' do usually, perhaps because of threat evaluation, perhaps because of another AI evaluating problem (never saw AI build a single ship), perhaps because of high cost.[color="#FF0000"] would she(and other powers) do, an increase of coal production would absolutely be needed (and not only for britain, but IF sizable war flets are not built and coal productio n is significantly i,ncreased with fix, then balancing and limiting role of coal will be thrown out of the window[/color]. She has to protect and create a huge Empire. and last but not least, should play a role of balancing power.

another problem I observed in my two games is that [color="#FF0000"]britain has very high global military - while an undersized fleet[/color]. which means a strong land army - while her needs are certainly considerable - Colonial army is needed because of her huge colonial Empire, first of the world, needing her to project her power in Afghanistan, Egypt, central africa, south africa, burma, malaya, scattering colonies around the world, protecting india and somehow canada and british isles, and intervene in crisis.

[color="#FF0000"] It seems to me Britain AI may do what paul kennedy* would call "overstretch", asphyxiating her economy by oversizing her military [/color]- Real world britain operated economically, was a liberal country , military was a cost, necessary, but a cost to avoid, taxes and so on, the thin red line was thin indeed - Britain managed her huge Empire with her fleet, and a reduced colonial land military, even in india, stuffing it only when need arised ![color="#008000"] solution would be perhaps, not limiting her force pool, but by setting parameters to lead her to build less military (and be more fleet oriented/ with scuttling of old models)[/color] that is teach AI (in general and britain in particular) to do what AI did -[color="#008000"] build economy first, and then (only) military question is not the force pool military, but British economy ability to grow and so tendancy to build too much[/color] guess can be done by parametering AI (with AI setlandbuild and AI set navbuild) - in my two games i have seen considerable british land forces - in Nigeria, in central Asia, in Indochina, facing Boers presently , in Ottoman Empire, invading US, and in Indochina in my russian game, starving crossing Africa, or starving in Balkans ... sure with such a vast empire, is a hard task for AI [color="#FF0000"] (some arealocalinterest to fix ?,)[/color]
- guess with india bordering indirectly Russia and china, (and india is a prime target for british industrialization, british AI builds there almost more industry than in british isles), canada bordering USA, and african needs (boers, but not only) threat evaluation in britain is high - but british militarizing massively early kills his growth - perhaps there is an explaination to look there

* author of decline and fall of great powers

[color="#40E0D0"]I guess there may be some sort of things like that in france [/color]- AI france (it's AI, always) has to crush russia in crimea, crush austria in italy, a loadshit of colonial actions (indochina, china, north africa, africa, mexico), offer a challenge to Prussia (at least) then expand her colonial Empire, keep enough size to resist to prussia somehow would a duel occur, and build a navy meanwhile, that is a lot

of course, it's difficult for everybody but US after civil war, start is difficult for russia who has to keep a huge military (continental neighbours, vast territory + garrisons), germany, Italy have to unite and are undersized before , especially Italy - germany is supposed to offer a big challenge to opposite coalition endgame, Austria is split between different spheres (Italy germany balakans) but so is russia, and germany has a potential 2 front wars enedgame, Italy is (usually, when not played by Loki) weak, and so is usually japan, who has to crush a mamooth with considerable superior forces like Russia, a real challenge

still delay of france in colonization strikes me much ! guess she too has too much to do compared to her strength, extending widely in Africa (provoking British aside) crushing Tonkin, and keeping a force almost able to hjold off prussiansd defensively is much - of course I'm Prussian, didn't help her :neener:

here's economic comparison, I excluded France (presently invaded, so analysis isnt valid, pre meiji japan and not united Italy are too weak)

[ATTACH]26327[/ATTACH]

images are a bit mixed, can't correct it, bug ? anyway, let's see figures

apart from oversized micromanaged germany (any micromanaged nation will be ahead in power and on schedule), and USA who seem to develop normally, other powers backwardnes strikes me , especially Britain

Austria and Russia I can explain by indirect effect of German actions - besides investment, it is widely possible that seizure of economic assets from rebels have destabilized tyheir economy, possible ...

but [color="#FF0000"]Britain[/color], there is no reason - unless considering her destabilized by german competition - [color="#FF0000"]her development is reallyabnormally low compared to US one, clearly[/color] : compared to history, Britain imlporting coal, producing in 1880 40% of US production, barely more than Russia, steel is in same situation, british is a net importer of manufactured goods, and textile !!! luxury goods(albeit so profitable) is abysmally low compared to Austria and Russia (Sweden too and so would france wouldn't her be invaded) and british importing fish is more than surprising - clearly Britain economy is undersized compared to real world historic one - even with Germany not buying preferentially to one of her main rivals, there are enough customers (plus interior market) to ensure a steady growth, which makes me wonder - AI analysis shortcoming ? or Military and taxes oversizing ? - edit, checking it, that [color="#FF0000"]must be the explaination, British taxes are set at at a maximum [/color]- it may be recent and due to their war with Russia (they declared !) but they're going to ruin temselves

other values are surprising, besides very low productions, as Austria-Hungary importing corn, Austria not producing mechanic parts at all , and absolutely no american exports of corn and meat (could be imports compensating exports if US acted as a hub redispatching production, but it isn't the case ..

guess we have somethiung here, possibly many nations taxes are set too high, [color="#FF0000"]AI should be fixed to balance her economic and military needs better no need to accumulate state funds if there are important economic needs [/color]- to check with other countries and in other games
Attachments
1880 GER COAL.jpg
1880 german coal production.jpg
1880 world production.jpg
1880 manufactured goods production.jpg
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

User avatar
Crixdaz
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Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:45 am
Location: Granada, Spain

Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:36 pm

It's nice to see that are people that want to keep improving this game :D . I think we'll should fix the wrong things in the game and later implement more creative ideas.

The first priorities could be to fix the events that triggers majors changes in the game, like unifications or important wars that doesn't work well now. I've got no experience in mod this game, but I'll be glad of help in this proyect. ;)
Excuse my bad english, don't doubt to correct me ;)

User avatar
Christophe.Barot
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:55 pm
Location: Paris (France)

Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:12 pm

rather agree, fixing broken chain of events or allowing them to happen according to (unifications, far east events, egyptian ones, balkan wars /great war) or allowing them to happen soon or late is one of our priorities

your help is welcome :)
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

User avatar
Christophe.Barot
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:55 pm
Location: Paris (France)

a little return to Colonial situation - Egypt

Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:43 am

Egyptian situation results from a script to give to British control over egypt, which was the de facto situation at the end of century (Egypt being occupied and her ministers being appointed by France and britain) , even if Egypt was nominally independant - and setting it so was a perfectly defendable design - and gamewise, it will allow more freedom of action to british troops, so i strongly advise to treat her exactly like morocco and tunisia, other protectorates, and to align persia on this status - persia could be divided in two colonial areas, easing the potential 1907 sharing of british - Russian agreement - it needs a minimal data base defining

without British Egypt, no Kitechner, no Omdurman, no remember gordon, imho - remains to discuss how we treat Sudan and how we treat fachoda

here is the new map of egypt :

[ATTACH]26331[/ATTACH]

btw british AI integrated the new status as a sizable British corps was sent in Sinai

still, while script worked, we need some areas redefinitions :


[ATTACH]26332[/ATTACH]

without initial colonial definitions we'll have strange things happening to SOI maps, not appearing (while Egypt has a positive SOI, it does not appear on map)

[ATTACH]26333[/ATTACH]
Attachments
Egypt SOI.jpg
Sollum and Sinai not in theater Egypt became influenced territory.jpg
Alexandria turned protectorate.jpg
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

User avatar
Christophe.Barot
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:55 pm
Location: Paris (France)

a few notes on military

Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:17 am

before leaving AAR for other tasks for some time, a ltittle look about military, one of the most thrilling parts of game

against a well sized german Army, france alone is no match :


[ATTACH]26334[/ATTACH]


[ATTACH]26335[/ATTACH]



[ATTACH]26336[/ATTACH]


Just to notice the very high competence level of prussian officiers - explaination is training - by fighting huge armies and getting victories, but colonial tribes and rebels work as well, your generals, if victorius, gain competence, either initiative, defensive or offensive - speed is variable, but is usually one point per victory (can be less) - this often applies to generals atatched to force too (1 or 2 maximum) even if not leading

additionally to experience gains, victorious generals may be promoted, usually after 4 victories - if promoted (you may lose victory points by so doing if you bypass senority - a trade-off of your choice - I still use to do that, consider it is worth the price - but I rule powerhouses ensuring victory by sole power of industry) a 2 star general (corps commander) becomes a 3 star general (army commander), thus freing a slot for another 2 star commander added to your officer pools - with enough promotions, you may get a really consistant pool of army commanders, allowing you to gether a really impressive force, with good quality generals - historically, officers with conflict field experience added to their theorical formation, were way better than pure armchair generals

once promoted, your general can still gain experience - hence the high statistics from Moltke and manteuffel you can observe (in my Russian game, a very long Chinese campaign got me really good russian generals - of course it's a trade off, as you may incur huge losses in the process)
Attachments
1880 Manteuffel.jpg
1880 Moltke.jpg
Manteuffel1.jpg
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

User avatar
Christophe.Barot
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:55 pm
Location: Paris (France)

a minor bug to fix

Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:49 pm

as game manages separately statesmen pool (have an influence on country characteristics) and generals, some weird discrepancies can be seen on the ground :

either the leader is killed in action, but still rules country (we can , at worst, considered that after some illness, his close relatives persuaded him no longer risk his precious imperial life in a battlefield - or he's no longer in shape too, so he's "dead for military purposes", that is retired from active service, but still rules

the reverse thing is more embarassing, Napoleon III no longer here as it his third republic (or did my mod broke a chain ?) now, but still on the field, like here :neener:

III d republic is really forgiving and confident - I wouldn't trust him - Bazaine's dream (whom I did never see in my game btw ..hope is just bad luck in rplacement generals picking and he didn't disappear) see :

[ATTACH]26340[/ATTACH]

case can be encountered for Napoleon III surviving regime change, Czars surviving themselves (natural death or assasination) and perhaps should be checked for some Kronprinz or Italian kings - no need to check Austria - Franz Josef is the 19th century Chuck Norris, nothing can kill him !
Attachments
NapoleonIII 1880.jpg
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

User avatar
Christophe.Barot
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:55 pm
Location: Paris (France)

Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:26 am

very strange french units encountered during siege of Lille, definitely look Germanic, what may have happened - overflow ?

[ATTACH]26342[/ATTACH]
Attachments
strange french army.jpg
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

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