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Christophe.Barot
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:55 pm
Location: Paris (France)

PON2-Subforum-improving -AI behaviours-improving AI naval game

Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:42 am

as Loki bluntly put, AI does not build any ships at all !

how is it possible ?

and how is it possible we did not notice yet ?

first, game is rich, and often (like in Victoria) we're so immersed into internal management , economy, colonization, our own (player, not AI) military build up, and of course the casual event allowing us to react, that we fail to notice other nations casual shortcomings
- Italy and Germany who fail to unite, shortcomings of Crimean war intervention, Russia failing to move into Balkans, delays in colonization, even diplomatic passivity are very visible (and worrying) so conversely, absence of fleet comes unnoticed
- all conflicts involves land force, invading or protecting britain isn't a hot spot - as a Russian I noticed absence of british (because of comparing my fleet to main reference and threat of British fleet during crimean war) german (because of historical tirpitz policy and to check what policy a not united germany could adopt) and japanese (for obvious reasons, anticipating the incoming Japan war for Korea and manchuria, which never came, even when I invaded China, even when I invaded Ottoman or Austria, turning my back to japan) - but none of the others built fleets either, France, US, Italy, nobody ..
- because of icons, old fleets look exactly like new counters ...
- because you see some corsairs activity, but barely big naval battles, no Sinope, no Lissa, no Tsushima, no Monitor/Merrimack, no Jutland obviously

Now, how does sytem does that :

- system hardly seem to master [color="#40E0D0"](edit) transports, they do landings, observed Turks and Chinese transport ships (never an US Brit or japanese or other though, but French US and Brits don't land in Ukrine, Lybia, and Africa by chance BUT how is it transport is not optimized, and British transport dump troops in desert rather than bringing thjem way quickier and safer - supplywise, directliy to the Cape, some subroutine evaluation would be welcome [/color]- transport and Amphibious assault -[color="#FF0000"] is there a way to teach AI to use it better or more ?[/color] this is crucial to Japanese and British AI obviously, but I guess for any colonial nation - [color="#FF0000"]I suspect most colonial troops there are placed by event, or come from adjacent land bases (India for Britain Russia/Siberia for Russian)- is it confirmed ? [/color]

as a [color="#FF0000"]counter example, I have seen American troops in Africa[/color] (rather disturbing), where they wander aimlessly it seems, just spoiling British or german control - yhis ones obvipously came by sea (no such event), so AI knows to transport and land, even if for bad reasons - [color="#FF0000"]ditto French troops I saw in Ukraine in my recent German game came obviously by black sea landing [/color]- but Japan did never try anything in Formosa Corea China or elsewhere in my Russian game (german one is too early, in 1878) - British, well evoked trek, when I took them over punctually, noticed only initial transports, and concentration of fleet near sarawak (horribly suffering at sea from Typhoons instead of staying at Singapore) - concentrating fleet is a progress - pointis why there, who has such naval power as to strip home fleet ?

[color="#FF0000"]is evaluation of threat the subject ?[/color] would explain why USA (civil war, mexico, Britain), Russia, Austria, Prussia, France, Italy (for obvious reasons) build mostly armies ! but ONLY armies and no fleets is a bit far, what about overseas action, naval supremacy, protection of trade ? corsairs ? why Japan (damn, they need a minimum fleet to land on continent and protect supply, is it Boshion war ?) and why Britain ? indias land borders, south africa, african colonies more pressing ? seems protection of British coasts is somehow undervalued

[color="#FF0000"]would Evalnatthreat be of use ? a then how to write that, an idea ? [/color] http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/EvalNatThreats

[color="#FF0000"]btw how to define threat ? at war is obvious - but at peace ? relationships ? alliances ? support ? [/color] we should have a debate about it, what are gameplay and historical relevant facors (absence of it creates illogical situations, like montenegro reluctant to ally Russia because Russia is powerful -( badboy syndrome - what does Montenegro expects, became at par ? ottoman is their concern, or Austria, not Russia) or Rumania fearing Russia concentrating against ottoman, or mobilizations making unpopular against allies or not threatened neutrals (hints : if you don't have a conflicting objective or annexable provinces, or allied to his enemies, a nation is NO threat for you - those are for me the factors to test - then the military power - of course, an exagerate unmatched power is a potential threat France if weak german, Germany if weak France and allied or weak Russia) [color="#FF0000"]guess it is the things we should test
[/color]


Another idea coming to my mind is effect of build parameters - Pocus, Philippe, Fer ? any of AGEOD team, how are those settings made, where are they situated in the program - [color="#FF0000"]i see we can modify them by AI.SetLandBuild and AI.SetNavBuild - but I have no clue of the basic values we modify [/color]- we can't properly apply modifications if we don't know the basic situation we modify, blind programming is not best efficient

so possible tracks of solutions are, imho :

- scripting fleet builds (may help, partly satisfactory, and something we're up to the task)

- devising for ships an upgrade system a bit like structures (not automatic like land forces, but would be perhaps more incitative and manageable for AI, [color="#FF0000"]alas, requires coding (Pocus) [/color])

- Playing on parameters AI.SetLandBuild and AI.SetNavBuild, or even Evalthreat - [color="#FF0000"]still we need more info about basic ones ! (please)[/color]

- incorporating those parameters directly into code (which means incorporating tests on conflicting objectives, coveted provinces, ratio of strength, alliances, support and priorities) certainly the most elegant situation [color="#FF0000"]but this means coding[/color] - so work for AGEOD theam

reactions and suggestions are welcome, explainations on factors (numbers and relations between factors ) are in real demand :)

cheers
Christophe
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

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Jim-NC
Posts: 2981
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:21 pm
Location: Near Region 209, North Carolina

Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:23 am

I believe the problem may lie in the AI's threat build subroutines. I have noticed that the AI keeps a very small army unless it is attacked. At which point, it massively mobilizes it's land army. You can't do that with a navy, and this is the problem.

A navy requires you to think about potential threats (as it can take months or years to build ships in the game), which I don't believe the current AI is capable of.

As to not noticing, you have to survive a game until the 1880s or so to even be able to notice (as in the 1860s, wooden ships would not be out of place in a navy, so we don't see other nations as being so weak in ships).
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.
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