Rethinkng Piombieres

[loki100]

Just to contribute, I'll use this to make some suggestions as well as to try and find back some older scripts (that may have got lost in the wasteblown wilderness over on the old Paradox forums) around Italian Unification.

I'd like to start with Piombieres. The current event script is:

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Piemonte
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_TreatyOfPlombiere1858|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_TreatyOfPlombiere1858|Event-img_ITA_TreatyOfPlombiere1858|$Piemonte|NULL

Conditions
MinDate = 1858/07/21
MaxDate = 1860/07/21
Probability = 50
EvalIsAtPeaceWith = FRA
EvalIsAtPeaceWith = AUS

SelectFaction = $AUS

EvalRgnOwned = $Lombardia

EvalRgnOwned = $Venetia

SelectFaction = $ITA

EvalRgnOwned = $Nice

EvalRgnOwned = $Savoie
EvalDiploItem = AUS;$diDefensiveTreaty;NOT

SelectFaction = $FRA
EvalDiploItem = AUS;$diDefensiveTreaty;NOT
EvalFacRelationships = AUS;<;0

SelectFaction = $ITA
EvalFacRelationships = AUS;<;0
EvalFacRelationships = FRA;>;25

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_TreatyOfPlombiere1858
ChgFacRelationships = FRA;25
ChgFacRelationships = AUS;-25
AddDiploItem = FRA;$diDefensiveTreaty;CURRENT
AddDiploItem = AUS;$diCBLong;CURRENT
ChgRgnDecisionFP = $rgdProposeUnificationITA;1

EndEvent

followed by the war footing etc events

Now that is a good reflection of the secret deal between Cavour and Louis Napoleon in that it creates a defensive alliance, gives Austria a CB and worsens Franco-Austrian relations. The surrounding events give the Austrians a problem with loyalty in the Veneto and Lombardia. In game, the Austrian AI is too sensible to suicide by a DOW, and can simply absorb the mild revolt risk. An Italian player can either wait for the 1860s unification chain or go off and conquer the rest of Italy instead, leaving Milan and Venice for later.

I'd propose something more dynamic in diplomatic terms built around the following:

a) there was a chance that British intervention would have resolved the whole issue. Cavour and Napoleon were scared about this. If so, then the end point of everyone annoyed but no war is correct. Lets say, on the basis of no evidence, that this was 25% likely, and if so, the default chain is good;
b) we need something to make Austria take the threat as seriously as it did. Prior to the Franco-Prussian war there is an event that wrecks French NM unless they give into popular demand for war. I'm sure that war in Italy did not have the same popular backing in the Austrian Empire, but someone thought it was a good idea. What I'd suggest here is twofold:

i) give the Austrian AI an enhanced chance of declaring war, lets say 3 times the baseline, but only keep this in place for a couple of years. The useful thing about this is it keeps the tensions and perhaps makes it harder for S-P to go off on a conquering spree for fear that the intact Austrian army would take the chance;
ii) make the unrest worse, perhaps link it to Slav, Hungarian and Czech unrest -ie if the Italians can get away with, so can we - remember the events of 1848-9 are very recent in everyone's memories. I don't think that Milan should be made too rebellious though. A lot of Milanese businesses liked being part of the Austrian economic area and had no interest in being tied to Southern Italy (the Legia Norda are merely recycling some old propaganda about 'dividing Africa, not uniting Italy'). Attitudinally, very close to Scottish nationalism in this era, a clear focus on grabbing as many of the spoils of Empire for a distinct group but no real complaint about the existence of Empire.

I'd say all this is the most likely, lets say 60%.

c) Austria, as it did, blunders into war - 15%.

The reality is what happened, was probably the least likely, and certainly the least sensible. But it should be a possibility.

If the war kicks in, there should be revolts, especially in Parma, Bologna and Firenze. In turn, these should trigger a withdrawal of French support to Piedmont, with the transfer of Milan and the formation of a state based on everything north or Rome. Then play out the (corrected) Garibaldi chain.

I've been converting these ideas into an event (or chain) and I'll post that up over the next few days. But thought it would be useful to offer a rationale first.

[Christophe.Barot]

I'm positively delighted to see I'm not the only one interested in putting input in revisiting events

giving Italy a good chance to recreate is imho part of European balance, historicity and fun.

Italian unification (which actually doesn't happen with AI) are in my prioritary as well as some aspects of Crimea war and Colonial events (namely Egypt and Sudan (Fashoda, the madhi revolt seems well covered to me)), as well as conditional diplomatic shifts and increasing AI reactivity (far east situation I did recently, several weeks work including a full time week end of scripting, intended to post it yesterday evening, was delayed, boosting japan and carving China should be for this evening if I can - is written anyway)

actually I didn't see it happen either in my Russian nor in my german game, so i guess there are several probklems in chain of events :

- first is Austrian "shyness" - because Austria is wary of French-Piedmont alliance (I have no details of how AI does take it into consideration (would really like and need to), but AI does, Pocus programmed it)

- reverse is true, Italy and France won't attack Austria at all, due to Prussian and Russian alliances - which are more tghan deterring

- would alliances work, there is some possibility of actual intervention, which upset balance - actually fighting Austria AND Russia or Austria AND Prussia (or the three one) is not a victorious proposal for France
- plus Russia has ahistorical range of actions, which , imho, should need to be curtailed (since Suvorov, no BIG Russia army acted so far from her bases, matter of logistics, Hungary, Bohemia, Northern China, central Asia, Persia, Eastern Germany, Poland, Balkans, Anatolia, are all OK - Tirol, Tonkin, Rhenania, Northern Italy should NOT be accessible for ARMY CORPS for a nation with REGIONAL PROJECTION as an EXPEDITIONARY CORPS (direct war with interests is a different matter). something like land contiguity of trade areas would be fine ... still request coding and Pocus rightly has other priorities

- even without alliances :
a) there are the unwanted effects of other conflicts :
I saw with pleasure this (german) game an effective war of crimea to happen, and French (not the Brits, at war still, why ?) landed in Russian black sea shores and fought even as far as Ukrine
BUT it exhausted the two foes to the point French arlty was very weakened for facing Austria ..and even Russian one had not recovered in 1877 when Russian-Turkish war was supposed to happen (I forced the event, and Russia begged and got peace little after, as her army, bigger was spread facing a big Turkish war in balkans (still with neverending fight against Greece))

b) there seems to be an unbalance between Austrian and namely French (but Russian and Prussian as well - Prussian is OK, but others) officers and manpower resources - Austria had WAY more - not only France had been bled white (by Russians, with reciprocity), but Austria had way more manpower (troop and officers) to recover - without needing it

c) and as if it wasn't enough, Austria can mobilize at this stage (France NOT° with spectacumar effects

in my game, France and Italy (I forced the event) hadn't the slightest chance as soon as Austria mobilized, and begged for peace very quickly (so good for my Prussia as Austria had less opportunity to train her generals but test was conclusive)

so there is a problem of assessing consequences of chain of events too


but anyway, I look forward to see your proposals, send you feedback, and make mine with the utmost interest

thanks by advance

[Kensai]

Another step into the good direction.
But I would really like to have some hard science (possibly only by Pocus?) as far as Athena's reactions go before making anything truly dynamic. For example, in our PBEM, we had the problem of the AI being passive instead of moving to achieve its goals. I had to script Garibaldi moving out and into regions to make it work. So what makes the AGE engine tick regarding relative power ratio, regional interest, objectives, etc in real mathematical terms? Do we have formulas and working examples?

The "revolt risk" in its own lands should really be a big no-go for the AI's aggressive plans, in my opinion. If there is trouble brewing at home, the AI should really be introvert and isolationist, until this trouble has been taken cared of. I have always found dealing with local revolt risks relatively easy. I would love to see it being deadly!

[Christophe.Barot]

In my current German game, Plombieres did not happen for this very reason : see conditions :

SelectFaction = $FRA
EvalDiploItem = AUS;$diDefensiveTreaty;NOT
EvalFacRelationships = AUS;<;0

SelectFaction = $ITA
EvalFacRelationships = AUS;<;0
[color="#FF0000"]EvalFacRelationships = FRA;>;25[/color]

if my memory is faithful, this condition, and just this one was not fullfilled

reason lies into the interaction of great powers relationships :

[color="#40E0D0"]a) the active diplomacy of the german player [/color](me) -
I used ALL my ambassadors (something the AI doesn't do) maximizing them (especially using my whole remainder every eve of allotment (2d part of december and june) in order to improve my relations with most other powers
(trade treaties are handy and economic helpful,
state visit can happen often enough when you start with decent relationships,
and, basic tool, support of nations is an unilateral act, working 100% of the time (100% of nations supported by me are nations I decided to support)
sure, support has its risks, but, when you know that an active war is rather unlikely (avoid supporting Spain, USA , or worse, both just before 1898, or Ottoman AND Moldavia around 1876, for example, you see the idea - but usually, you're reasonably safe)
so an acive PLAYER (an active AI too, but AI doesn't do that, too complex parameters) can rather easily improve his popularity ....

and then ? there are like communicating vases - when Russia and Germany improve their relationships, their relations with their respective opponents will tend to go down (less but this is the idea) - BUT if, say Germany improve her relations with an "at odds with Russia" Ottoman, net result is that germany will globally improve her relations (less massively) with both, while both Ottoman and Russia will have some of their relations worsened.

corollary [color="#40E0D0"]if a nation improves her relations with nearly everybody and his cousin [/color](which is very good to isolate enemies) [color="#40E0D0"]her popularity result in general impopularity of almost everybody else,[/color] with a few exceptions (in my game Italy LOVED France and germany, and HATED everybody else, France loved Italy and liked USA - and disliked ALMOST everybody else .. but not me, she almost hated Austria and Russia, Britain of course (will explain), but not me, because ...in spite of the Alsace Lorraine (she couldn't love me though, of course) having became Reichsland, because ... I had outstanding relations with her best pal, Italy .. you see (for similar reasons Italy disliked Russia - That I liked and France disliked- more than Austria that France liked more)

[color="#40E0D0"]b) result of war (and peace) have surprising mechanical effects on on relationships[/color]

When Crimean crisis happened both of them declared on Russia - up to this point all normal, fine, and Anglo french honeymoon, Entente Cordiale before time, fine, fine
then France send massive troops towards ..Odessa rather than Sevastopol, but it is the right idea, so bad for details
Britain didn't move at all (or did in central asia, but seems it was later), guess her regional interest wasn't parametered high enough around black sea then

but then, after some time (and much Russian and French bleeding) without a spectacular warscore (Russia had made peace with Ottoman beforehand, btw, making war from now on pointless, something I plan to test), length of war made France randomly sign peace with Russia (or perhaps not so randomly after all, but I'd like Pocus to give us the keys, as France had had huge losses)

and from then on, separate peace (what else,[color="#40E0D0"] system does not allow grouped peaces, only separate ones) created extremely bad relations between former best friends[/color]

that is absurd, but mechanical, system makes separate peace necessarily happen, soon or late, destroying relations - almost better not to go to war to help an ally, than go, then make peace when common enemy is down - resentment looks almost worse - or the ally makes peace himself, same results. this is something to correct... and grouped peace would be a signifiant step in this dirrection - if it can't be coded, then we'll have to script some, but of course, won't be sandbox sure

[color="#40E0D0"]c) the snowball effect of relationships :[/color]

the best your relations, the best they improve, the best they can improve

the worse your relations, the less they can improve back to normal, less even become good

in other words, you can make peace almost only with your friends and not your enemies, and only your current allies (exceptionally very good freinds) will accept your alliance

did you notice state visit proposals are most proposed when your relations are already at 100 - therefore somehow useless in this respect

a clear [color="#40E0D0"]problem of parameter imho
[/color]
explaination : I [color="#40E0D0"]suspect [/color](hints of Philippe, Pocus or the other mates of the staff would be most appreciated) the [color="#40E0D0"]mathematical model is involved[/color]

In my opinion, relations should tend towards a natural reference point, depending on several factors, with a jokari effect :

reference point should depend on structural factors, out of player reach, massively geopolitical interests, ethnic/religious factors (not universally, anglo saxon/german solidarity was a case by case- and with trade competition .., use analysis, ban sandbox), and slightly nature of regime (see the AUS/RUS/GER trilateral relations, GBR/FRA rivalry, and FRA/RUS alliance)

use some [color="#40E0D0"]static [/color][color="#40E0D0"]modificators[/color], more or less strong, like [color="#40E0D0"]alliances, other diplomatic items (trade) third party alliance or relationship, [color="#40E0D0"]ownership of crucial objectives[/color][/color] ([color="#40E0D0"]massively [/color]- for example Italy can tolerate alliance with Austria because there is a german-Austrian alliance, germany is at odds with France, and Tunis is a presently much valued (it can vary with time) French-owned objective, but will never be in excellent terms as Austria will hold Trentin and trieste (andif holds Venezia or Milano, not the slightest chance)

and[color="#40E0D0"] dynamism being provided by player/AI diplomatic new items (temporarily),[/color] actions (threat, mobilization, declaring war, making peace), [color="#40E0D0"]events, and player created situations [/color](trade, competition,[color="#40E0D0"] ownership of new objectives, strength of military[/color], whose variations may provide either more security (more strength is good if you're weak and geopolitically compatible) or more threat (if you don't need another power army or fleet, it's either neutral or bad for your relations)

anyway, [color="#40E0D0"]strength and success are unsufficient factors per se for hindering relationships[/color] AUTOMATICALLY and sandbox is to ban : clearly, if Russia is ahead and/or has the hugest army of the world, relations shouldn't be degraded with Serbia and Montenegro - they couldn't care less of victory status of a great power (even with victory points they can't compete, and been overwhelmed by Russia OR USA or germany or japan is totally indifferent) and Russian army strength is GOOD news actually. ditto a strong army at borders is not automatically a threat - key is [color="#40E0D0"]not good relations[/color] (though it helps) [color="#40E0D0"]nor even alliance , which are consequences [/color]- but absence of Russian claim on Rumanian lands (if Russia can't take Rumanian provinces, Russia won't attack Rumania unprovoked) and [color="#40E0D0"]vicinity of ottoman common enemy (hardcoded hostility,[/color] bad relationships in a small extent - can change, [color="#40E0D0"]claims [/color]are the discriminating factor)

some sort of "badboy" seems have been implemented - may be useful (if not too systematical effects), lest anything l more pertinent be devised , but it is way too simplistic and more analysis of factors must be provided - once again [color="#40E0D0"]claim and some hardcoding [/color]are the key ([color="#40E0D0"]irredentism [/color](Italy, panslavism, alsace lorraine, texas), objectives, [color="#40E0D0"]marginally colonial rivalry[/color] ("civilized nations did not went to war for a trade treaty (but with colonial areas, yes, like Opium war, Jonker bonds and mexico, venezuela, Egypt...)

once again, scripts can do that, but on a limited bnasis - some factors review is in order whenever possible (coding takes a lot of time)


I [color="#40E0D0"]suspect [/color]the effect of relations has too much dynamism and so is it for [color="#40E0D0"]some diplomatic events (when alliance[/color], you tend to 100, not the "basic+10 or +20) [color="#40E0D0"]or the modificator is set too high[/color] ! - this is [color="#40E0D0"]worsenedby permanence of alliances[/color] (easy to modify, set duration to 120 or 240 instead of this item and you have 5 or 10 years alliance - still effect must be to set statically reference notably higher, biut not to the top, nor dynamically

with a system such as the preconised one, i guess we would create the conditions for a more logical (and historical) diplomatic relations, as[color="#40E0D0"] relations and alliances are a consequence of a situation and conflicting geopolitical needs, not a cause[/color], franco russian, anglo french, prussian austrian alliance after Nikolsburg, not of them was a given

diplobias implementation was a great step towards it, but too static (and remains just a modifier, basic mecanisms must be sound, an excess or a shortage in cursor setting ) and unsufficient I fear - chosen factors and their interaction have to be analyzed and possibly corrected imho

but It's very difficult to analyze our AGEOD team mates final parameters validity with accuracy, as isn't known (by me at last)

a debate about this with Pocus, Philippe, fernando would be fruitful I guess - even explainations about how exacly subroutine works would be helpful - the "peace chance increase from 2% each year of war help, but are hardly sufficient as we don't know the base factors and operation - same for all diplomatic actions. difficult to improve a formula if we don't know the calculations.

meanwhile we still can script a lot



on another subject, [color="#FF0000"]I red southern unification (garibaldi and 2 sicilies kingdom) does not work (with Ai Italy)[/color]- who has hints about what cause this ? what happened in your games.

cheers to all

[loki100]

Ok, guilt has finally got the better of me, so I thought I'd start with the Garibaldi chain. I can't claim the credit for this as Powloon did the original work (but his solution is lost on the AGEOD forums at Paradox). The problem at the moment is Garibaldi spawns in Sicily regardless of the outcome of the 1859 events - this I'll come back to later. With a rebel army - which is correct (ish) since Cavour was prepared to fight him to stop the march on Rome, but a wee bit flawed as most of his troops were in fact Piedmontese regulars. The problem is he tends to get stuck in Sicily, as a rebel, and the rest of the chain fails.

The first event is fine:

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiSicily1860|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_GaribaldiSicily1860|Event-img_ITA_GaribaldiSicily1860|$Sicilia|NULL

Conditions
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_KingOfSiciliesDied1859;=;1
MinDate = 1860/04/01
MaxDate = 1861/04/01
Probability = 50

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_GaribaldiSicily1860
AddDiploItem = SIC;$diCBLong;CURRENT

SelectFaction = $SIC
ChangeFacMorale = -10

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
SelectSubUnits = Region $Sicilia;FactionTags SIC
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill

SelectFaction = $REB
SelectRegion = $Sicilia

SelectFaction = $REB
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
CreateGroup
Posture = $Defensive
SetKind = $Land
FixType = 0
SetName = Corpo de Voluntari
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Garibaldi2
SetName = Giuseppe Garibaldi
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Inf_1850M_Div
SUFlavorName = 1° Rgt. Volontari |2° Rgt. Volontari |3° Rgt. Volontari |4° & 5° Rgt. Volontari |Artigliera Volontari
SetLevel = 5
SetName = Division de Voluntari
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Inf_1850L_Bde
SUFlavorName = Bersaglieri Genovesi |Rgt. Guide
SetLevel = 4
SetName = I Cacciatori delle Alpi
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Pio_Pio1850
FlavorName = Paolo Griffini
SUFlavorName = 1° Cp. zappatori del Genio |8°Cp. zappatori del Genio
SetLevel = 5
SetName = Zappatori del Genio
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Sup_Sup1
SUFlavorName = 1e Cia|2e Cia|3e Cia|4e Cia
SetLevel = 3
SetName = Volunteers Supply
Apply

EndEvent

Well fine if you accept the rebel concept. I think it would do no harm to make his units ITA but thats a matter of choice.

The problems start with the next step

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860|Event-img_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860|$Sicilia|NULL

Conditions
MinDate = 1860/04/01
MaxDate = 1861/04/01
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiSicily1860;=;1
Probability = 50

SelectFaction = $REB

EvalRgnOwned = $Sicilia

....

EndEvent

Even with killing off the Sicilian field army, Sicily will not fall in less than 3 turns. So the second step, fails as the Reb faction will not own Sicily. The rest of that event is fine - represents the extent that the badly undercounted 1000 was reinforced by local Sicilians keen to see the back of the Bourbons. Ideally this should be see the text: Se vogliamo che tutto rimanga com'è bisogna che tutto cambi appear - but then you all know what that means.

What I think is one of two things need to change. Either change this event so it simply makes Sicily rebel held or give it say 6 chances to fire.

So for the first add:

SelectFaction = $Reb
SelectRegion = $Sicilia

SelectRegion = $Sicilia
ChangeRgnOwner = SIC

in place of EvalRgnOwned = $Sicilia - since the intent clearly is that Sicily has fallen with no fighting, or alter the event line to:

StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860|6|2|evt_txt_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860|Event-img_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860|$Sicilia|NULL

So it will try to fire 6 times, that should be enough for an unmolested Garibaldi to do his thing. Either gets the event chain back on track, and given that the intent is to set up Garibaldi's overthrow of the Bourbons, I think the first (ie simply flip control) is the most simple solution.

Next post, I'll look at what happens next, which is when G lands in mainland Italy.

[loki100]

If the first step works (and as above it won't), then the next has problems too. Here Garibaldi crosses the Straights of Messina with a damn sight more than 1000 men:

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Calabria
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860|Event-img_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860|$Calabria|NULL

Conditions
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860;=;1
MinDate = 1860/06/01
MaxDate = 1862/06/01
Probability = 75

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860

SelectFaction = $SIC
ChangeFacMorale = -10

SelectFaction = $REB
AI.SetLocalInterest = $Napoli;300;

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Calabria
SelectSubUnits = Region $Calabria;FactionTags SIC
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill
ChangeRgnOwner = REB

SelectFaction = $REB
SelectRegion = $Calabria

SelectFaction = $REB
SelectRegion = $Calabria
CreateGroup
Posture = $Defensive
SetKind = $Land
FixType = 0
SetName = Corpo de Voluntari
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Garibaldi2
SetName = Giuseppe Garibaldi
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Inf_1850M_Div
SUFlavorName = 1° Rgt. Volontari |2° Rgt. Volontari |3° Rgt. Volontari |4° & 5° Rgt. Volontari
SetLevel = 4
SetName = Division de Voluntari
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Inf_1850L_Bde
SUFlavorName = Bersaglieri genovesi |Rgt. Guide
SetLevel = 4
SetName = I Cacciatori delle Alpi
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Pio_Pio1850
FlavorName = Paolo Griffini
SUFlavorName = 1° Cp. zappatori del Genio |8°Cp. zappatori del Genio
SetLevel = 5
SetName = Zappatori del Genio
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Sup_Sup1
SUFlavorName = 1e Cia|2e Cia|3e Cia|4e Cia
SetLevel = 3
SetName = Volunteers Supply
Apply

EndEvent

Now the simple problem there is the Sicily Garibaldi is not dead, so what is needed to be added is (Should note this is less important if the full chain works out but it doesn't):

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
SelectSubUnits = Region $Sicilia;FactionTags REB
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill

beneath the good to kill off the Bourbon units in Calabria.

Now we only have 1 Garibaldi (and as anyone who has read my AAR will agree -this is a good thing)

But we hit another problem. That tells the 1000+ rebels to consider Naples as there next target. But it doesn't, or its not strong enough to trigger an intervention. So I'd suggest, make:

AI.SetLocalInterest = $Napoli;300;

a lot bigger ... here we come to the problem that is in a lot of Christophe's work, how does the AI interpret such an instruction. Is:

AI.SetLocalInterest = $Napoli;900;

enough?

Now what happened in reality is that a lot of Bourbon troops deserted and the King entrenched just north of Naples with around 25,000. Garibaldi had much the same and there was an inconclusive 2 day battle. The campaign was resolved by the regular Piedmontese army turning up. Here its worth noting that Cavour was prepared to fight Garibaldi if it came down to it.

In game, the rebels won't attack. 1-1 even against a low morale opponent is not good odds in PoN. So the event is good history but doesn't really work in game turns. My personal assumption is that by this stage, its game over for the Bourbons.

All this is important as the next event in the chain:

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Napoli
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860|Event-img_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860|$Napoli|NULL

Conditions
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860;=;1

SelectFaction = $REB

EvalRgnOwned = $Napoli
MinDate = 1860/07/01
MaxDate = 1863/07/01
Probability = 75

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860

SelectFaction = $ITA
AbsorbFaction = SIC;100;100;100;100;100;75;100

SelectRegion = $Marche
ChangeRgnOwner = REB

SelectRegion = $Napoli
ChangeRgnOwner = REB

SelectRegion = $Puglia
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
SelectSubUnits = Area $Area_Southern_Italy;FactionTags REB
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill
ChgVPCount = 20
ChgRgnDecisionFP = $rgdProposeUnificationITA;1

EndEvent

kicks in the unification south of the Po but relies on the rebels holding Naples.

Note also at this stage, all the rebels get removed.

For game purposes, what I'd suggest is to simplify that event to:

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Napoli
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860|Event-img_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860|$Napoli|NULL

Conditions
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860;=;1

SelectFaction = $REB

MinDate = 1860/11/01
MaxDate = 1863/07/01
Probability = 75

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860

SelectFaction = $ITA
AbsorbFaction = SIC;100;100;100;100;100;75;100

SelectRegion = $Marche
ChangeRgnOwner = REB

SelectRegion = $Napoli
ChangeRgnOwner = REB

SelectRegion = $Puglia
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
SelectSubUnits = Area $Area_Southern_Italy;FactionTags REB
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill
ChgVPCount = 20
ChgRgnDecisionFP = $rgdProposeUnificationITA;1

EndEvent

What I'm suggesting is that the event chain simply ends in November with a high probability of the Bourbon's falling. To improve on this, lets add a second condition, if Sardinia sends an army down then:

SelectFaction = $ITA

SelectFaction = $SIC
RegInit = 1
SelectSubUnits = Region $Napoli;FactionTags SIC;Domains $Land

SelectFaction = $ITA
RegInit = 2
SelectSubUnits = Region $Napoli;FactionTags ITA;Domains $Land

RegEval = 1;>;2

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860

SelectFaction = $ITA
AbsorbFaction = SIC;100;100;100;100;100;75;100

SelectRegion = $Marche
ChangeRgnOwner = REB

SelectRegion = $Napoli
ChangeRgnOwner = REB

SelectRegion = $Puglia
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
SelectSubUnits = Area $Area_Southern_Italy;FactionTags REB
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill
ChgVPCount = 20
ChgRgnDecisionFP = $rgdProposeUnificationITA;1

EndEvent

That will mean that if a Sardinian army is in the province and its bigger than the Neapolitan one then its game over. We still have the small problem of a rebel force if the prime event fails. For which I think we need a new event:

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Napoli
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_EndofRebellion|1|2|Null|Null|$Napoli|NULL

Conditions
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860;=;0

SelectFaction = $REB

MinDate = 1860/11/01

Actions

SelectRegion = $Puglia
ChangeRgnOwner = SIC
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
ChangeRgnOwner = SIC
SelectSubUnits = Area $Area_Southern_Italy;FactionTags REB
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill

EndEvent

So here, Garibaldi fails. lets assume that the battle was the historic stalemate and Garibaldi's force melted away when it is clear that Piedmont won't intervene.

I think this gives a more than likely chance of the historic outcome, the player (or AI) the chance to make this inevitable, and some chance the Bourbons face down the challenge. They are doomed in any case by the mid-1860 alternative event chain.

[loki100]

So what I suggest is the events in the unification folder are replaced by:

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Napoli
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_KingOfSiciliesDied1859|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_KingOfSiciliesDied1859|Event-img_ITA_KingOfSiciliesDied1859|$Napoli|NULL

Conditions
MinDate = 1859/05/22
MaxDate = 1869/05/22
EvalRuler = $ruler_SIC_Francesco2;1;NOT
Probability = 50

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_KingOfSiciliesDied1859

SelectFaction = $SIC
ChangeFacMorale = -10

EndEvent

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiSicily1860|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_GaribaldiSicily1860|Event-img_ITA_GaribaldiSicily1860|$Sicilia|NULL

Conditions
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_KingOfSiciliesDied1859;=;1
MinDate = 1860/04/01
MaxDate = 1861/04/01
Probability = 50

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_GaribaldiSicily1860
AddDiploItem = SIC;$diCBLong;CURRENT

SelectFaction = $SIC
ChangeFacMorale = -10

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
SelectSubUnits = Region $Sicilia;FactionTags SIC
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill

SelectFaction = $REB
SelectRegion = $Sicilia

SelectFaction = $REB
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
CreateGroup
Posture = $Defensive
SetKind = $Land
FixType = 0
SetName = Corpo de Voluntari
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Garibaldi2
SetName = Giuseppe Garibaldi
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Inf_1850M_Div
SUFlavorName = 1° Rgt. Volontari |2° Rgt. Volontari |3° Rgt. Volontari |4° & 5° Rgt. Volontari |Artigliera Volontari
SetLevel = 5
SetName = Division de Voluntari
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Inf_1850L_Bde
SUFlavorName = Bersaglieri Genovesi |Rgt. Guide
SetLevel = 4
SetName = I Cacciatori delle Alpi
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Pio_Pio1850
FlavorName = Paolo Griffini
SUFlavorName = 1° Cp. zappatori del Genio |8°Cp. zappatori del Genio
SetLevel = 5
SetName = Zappatori del Genio
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Sup_Sup1
SUFlavorName = 1e Cia|2e Cia|3e Cia|4e Cia
SetLevel = 3
SetName = Volunteers Supply
Apply

EndEvent

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860|Event-img_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860|$Sicilia|NULL

Conditions
MinDate = 1860/04/01
MaxDate = 1861/04/01
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiSicily1860;=;1
Probability = 50

SelectFaction = $Reb
SelectRegion = $Sicilia

SelectRegion = $Sicilia
ChangeRgnOwner = SIC

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
SelectSubUnits = Region $Sicilia;FactionTags SIC
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill
SelectSubUnits = Region $Sicilia;FactionTags REB
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
ChgVPCount = 20

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
CreateGroup
Posture = $Defensive
SetKind = $Land
Entranch = 4
InCS = 1
FixType = 999
SetName = Palermo
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_FortArt_1840
NumCreate = 1
SUFlavorName = 1st Co 1st Brigade
SetLevel = 3
SetName = Fortress Artilley
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Gar_1840_Rgt
NumCreate = 1
SUFlavorName = Palermo Fortifications Garrison
SetLevel = 3
SetName = Fortress Garrison
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Inf_1840M_Bde
NumCreate = 2
SUFlavorName = 11e Carabinieri|12e Carabinieri
SetLevel = 3
SetName = Sicilia Carabinieri
Apply
ChangeLoyaltyFac = $Area_Southern_Italy;25
ChgRgnDecisionFP = $rgdProposeUnificationITA;1

EndEvent

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Calabria
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860|Event-img_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860|$Calabria|NULL

Conditions
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860;=;1
MinDate = 1860/06/01
MaxDate = 1862/06/01
Probability = 75

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860

SelectFaction = $SIC
ChangeFacMorale = -10

SelectFaction = $REB
AI.SetLocalInterest = $Napoli;900;

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Calabria
SelectSubUnits = Region $Calabria;FactionTags SIC
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill
ChangeRgnOwner = REB

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
SelectSubUnits = Region $Sicilia;FactionTags REB
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill

SelectFaction = $REB
SelectRegion = $Calabria

SelectFaction = $REB
SelectRegion = $Calabria
CreateGroup
Posture = $Defensive
SetKind = $Land
FixType = 0
SetName = Corpo de Voluntari
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Garibaldi2
SetName = Giuseppe Garibaldi
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Inf_1850M_Div
SUFlavorName = 1° Rgt. Volontari |2° Rgt. Volontari |3° Rgt. Volontari |4° & 5° Rgt. Volontari
SetLevel = 4
SetName = Division de Voluntari
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Inf_1850L_Bde
SUFlavorName = Bersaglieri genovesi |Rgt. Guide
SetLevel = 4
SetName = I Cacciatori delle Alpi
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Pio_Pio1850
FlavorName = Paolo Griffini
SUFlavorName = 1° Cp. zappatori del Genio |8°Cp. zappatori del Genio
SetLevel = 5
SetName = Zappatori del Genio
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Sup_Sup1
SUFlavorName = 1e Cia|2e Cia|3e Cia|4e Cia
SetLevel = 3
SetName = Volunteers Supply
Apply

EndEvent

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Napoli
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_Ga ribaldiNaples1860|Event-img_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860|$Napoli|NULL

Conditions
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860;=;1

SelectFaction = $ITA

SelectFaction = $ITA

SelectFaction = $SIC
RegInit = 1
SelectSubUnits = Region $Napoli;FactionTags SIC;Domains $Land

SelectFaction = $ITA
RegInit = 2
SelectSubUnits = Region $Napoli;FactionTags ITA;Domains $Land

RegEval = 1;<;2

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860

SelectFaction = $ITA
AbsorbFaction = SIC;100;100;100;100;100;75;100

SelectRegion = $Marche
ChangeRgnOwner = REB

SelectRegion = $Napoli
ChangeRgnOwner = REB

SelectRegion = $Puglia
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
SelectSubUnits = Area $Area_Southern_Italy;FactionTags REB
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill
ChgVPCount = 20
ChgRgnDecisionFP = $rgdProposeUnificationITA;1

SelectFaction = $REB

MinDate = 1860/11/01
MaxDate = 1863/07/01
Probability = 75

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860

SelectFaction = $ITA
AbsorbFaction = SIC;100;100;100;100;100;75;100

SelectRegion = $Marche
ChangeRgnOwner = REB

SelectRegion = $Napoli
ChangeRgnOwner = REB

SelectRegion = $Puglia
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
SelectSubUnits = Area $Area_Southern_Italy;FactionTags REB
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill
ChgVPCount = 20
ChgRgnDecisionFP = $rgdProposeUnificationITA;1

EndEvent

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Napoli
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_EndofRebellion|1|2|Null|Null|$Napoli|N ULL

Conditions
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860;=;0

SelectFaction = $REB

MinDate = 1860/11/01

Actions

SelectRegion = $Puglia
ChangeRgnOwner = SIC
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
ChangeRgnOwner = SIC
SelectSubUnits = Area $Area_Southern_Italy;FactionTags REB
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill

EndEvent

the rest of the chain - absorb the Papal states et al is fine as it is.

I'm not sure about how to combine the two 'Naples' steps - ie the certainty if Piedmont intervenes and the probability if left to Garibaldi, is that better as two events?

[Jim-NC]

How does the Piedmontese army get to Naples?

[loki100]

How does the Piedmontese army get to Naples?

You'd need to do a DOW on the Papal States - which tends to have no protectors. So odds on the AI is not going to do that - something else to think over

[loki100]

Carrying on musing on this, I think there are too many probabilities in the chain. At the moment (assuming the non-Piedmontese arrival) the chance of it all working are .5 (King dies), .5 (G to Sicily). .5 (G to Palermo), .75 (G to Calabria), .75 (G to Naples). Unless the maths is worked in a particular way that is about a 8% chance of really working.

I'd suggest remove the death probablity, keep the .5 to Sicily (the whole thing could have failed and relied on a lot of odd events, like the RN playing along), scrap the next probabilities (Bourbon control was weak) and keep the last (ie does G win the final battle). That gives a chance of .5 * .75 ~ roughly 40% of the entire expedition working. Maybe better to make the first .75 to, so we end up with .75*.75 ~ 50% for the actual outcome?

[Christophe.Barot]

excellent work, loki - I couldn't do as well, am somehow familiar with the Austrian/Italian part of the show (and further Italian diplomatic musings, which I personally would not name erratic, they have their logic), but way less to the southern part, I'm enthusiastic about the job your're doing (as well as Kensai alternate German history, I guess the "Habsburg outcome " is right what we need, and intend to incorporate results of an Austrian victory into the German chain of events)

I'd suggest you make your choosings on probability and, well, implement them - as no major power is implied (chances a gamer want to play kingdom of Naples are somehow remote, and then he's likely to have the basic knowledge to create his own mod, or tinker with events- I had a look on Serbia in a 18 player setting- yikes, to keep to be able to play it, but never to play actually, you've a small army and nothing else- a pity I couldn't set Bulgaria playable, does anyone knows how to set playable a nation which is likely to appear later in game), I'd say, try to insure Garibaldi will success at least 80% of time, - I'd even suggest 90% as a natural 10% of failure is enough random for me. If Austrian, French or british player want to prevent this, they have enough military muscle to do that - it's a pity (and a shame that Italy never forms) Italy should form most of time, barring a competent Austrian player - else where is the challenge (and where's the fun for a Piedmontese player)

in short, just (re)write the chain of events the way you think they should, then test them and have Kensai validate them and propose them to Philippe and Pocus



- and, yes, 1st step is having historical outcome happen [color="#FF0000"]most [/color]of time
and really most in 2 cases - unifications, and explosions/appearances of new nations (I mean Balkanic event) - those are really turning points - in ideal settings a competent player should be able to prevent historical outcome, but natural trend of AI should be to have them happen most of time
- then (only) randomization
- then (need a lot of studying of real history) generalization of randomization

- for example, sporadic revolts leading to balkan states and bulgaria+ bosnia surging, not just a one way shot/event which can fail - true for bulgaria which will never exist if Russia does not win in 1877 (till 1920 game was not over, lots of further wars and revolts happened), true for Italy (not getting venezia thanks to prussian threat was just a delay, what Italy didn't get at villafranca http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_de_Villafranca - sorry exists in french or german, not English on wiki , or in first independance war, she got in 1867), true for Germany - Olmutz wasn't the end as Bismarck proved it

ditto, old feuds live forever, and revive - with ups and downs, reshuffles of diplomacy (Bulgaria, Serbia) and turning points,
- balkan wars, struggle of influence between Austria and Russia was really settled with the Great War
- Alsace-Lorraine was a long French awaiting of either revanche, or a reparation throught right (arbitration), here too, ended in WWI, France could "wait with dignity", but never forgot (since Louis XIV, Alsace andLlorraine population had long forgotten her old belonging to German Empire, but could't forget being French citizens in 40 years) - german nationalism did not allow a reconcilation peace like Austria's, French one couldn't ever forgive or forget, by realism colonial expansion could allow both a diversion and a preparation ("you take two children from me, and offer 20 servants in compensation"), but not change priorities, diplomatic dices were frozen, and, unlike British rivalry which could and was settled, Russian regime uncompatibilities which could be ignored and discarded, german understanding a total impossibility
- ditto, Irredentist claims were too deep , in territory, to allow something else than an uncomfortable and temporary alliance between Italy and Austria, Tunis could be forgoten and forgiven, not Milano, Venezia, or even Trieste

- last and final triumphant step would be to incorporate the correct factors into code for a "spontaneous" AI historical behavour

it's a long, difficult process, painful I guess (for Pocus I mean), and which requires, like chess where masters program directly moves, and not only standard subroutines, a huge historical factors input INTO code (avoid war with Britain at all costs if you are italian, look natural allies and avoid war if you are too weak, but attack if you're strong enough, anticipate future wars)
it needs to know :
- what are natural objectives (goals)
- priorities and shift of priorities
- anticipating ratio of forces (what to build and when)
- who are your opponents to those goals
- who are your opponents'opponents (so who to court)

as one can notice, it's a full goal/army forces/alliances process, nature of regime is secondary, present relations are secondary, who is ahead (badboy) is secondary - goals/targets (objectives) to conquer or keep (or allies to keep), alliances and conflicting goals, correlation of strength (ratio of strength) are the determining factors

of course, ideology determines goals too, that's what panslavism and pangermanism are for -that's what AI Diplobias is for, but they of course have an effect on goals/objjectives

[Christophe.Barot]

tell me what you think about it
I make Plombieres stop before 1/1/1860 as there is a reset of diplobias then
I force it a bit (even worse than revolt), but, well, Nice and Savoy aren't something an Emperor can turn off


SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Piemonte
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_TreatyOfPlombiere1858|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_TreatyOfPlombiere1858|Event-img_ITA_TreatyOfPlombiere1858|$Piemonte|NULL

Conditions
MinDate = 1858/07/21
[color="#40E0D0"] MaxDate = 1859/12/31
// after the diplobias lasts til 1870[/color]
Probability = 50
[color="#40E0D0"]// may be increased but should fire in 1858 anyawy, with 2 x 50% each month[/color]
EvalIsAtPeaceWith = FRA
EvalIsAtPeaceWith = AUS

SelectFaction = $AUS

EvalRgnOwned = $Lombardia

EvalRgnOwned = $Venetia

SelectFaction = $ITA

EvalRgnOwned = $Nice

EvalRgnOwned = $Savoie
EvalDiploItem = AUS;$diDefensiveTreaty;NOT

SelectFaction = $FRA
EvalDiploItem = AUS;$diDefensiveTreaty;NOT
[color="#40E0D0"] EvalFacRelationships = AUS;<;25
//eased the relation part, because of uncontrolled events[/color]

SelectFaction = $ITA
[color="#40E0D0"] EvalFacRelationships = AUS;<;25
EvalFacRelationships = FRA;>;0[/color]

[color="#40E0D0"]// ditto, relations should be bad because Austria owns Italian lands, period, if they aren't they become
// one does not play with relations to prevent irredentism - Italy owns Milano, period, no Italian ned habsburg excuses about that
// for France, France has revisionist goals, that's intrinsic - Napoleon III thinks Prussia can share revisionist objectives,
// as she may want to change situation - while Austria is an obstacle, both in Italy and Germany
// and without change of Italy, no new French subjects (Savoie, Nice) with their consent - so Piedmont-Italy cooperation is needed
// ditto Napoleonic revisionism is not an option but a given - Empire is not "peace", as Napoleon told, but glory
// and without glory, regime won't hold , which is suicide - period ! any French Imperial player has to play "revisionnist"[/color]

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_TreatyOfPlombiere1858
ChgFacRelationships = FRA;25
ChgFacRelationships = AUS;-25
AddDiploItem = FRA;$diDefensiveTreaty;CURRENT
AddDiploItem = AUS;$diCBLong;CURRENT
ChgRgnDecisionFP = $rgdProposeUnificationITA;1

[color="#40E0D0"]SelectFaction = $ITA
AI.SetDiploItemBias = AUS;*War*;400
AI.SetDiploItemBias = FRA;*Military*;500
SelectFaction = $FRA
AI.SetDiploItemBias = AUS;*War*;500
AI.SetDiploItemBias = ITA;*Military*;500[/color]

[color="#40E0D0"]//is even rasher than this, but guess we want a massive effect - still the intrinsic strength of Austria should Crimean war actually happen, is not adressed[/color]
// [color="#FF0000"](and a serious problem unless using the "life saving in battle Mac naughton mod)"[/color]
// http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?33861-PON2-scripting-recurrent-revolt-events-Milanese&p=300369#post300369

EndEvent

[loki100]

Hi Christophe

I think this is good - just wish we understood what shifting the diplo bias really achieves. The gap is that somewhere in the chain you have to have the possibility of the British spoiling Napoleon's and Cavour's fun. They came very close to diffusing the crisis by pushing Austria to accept a federal Italy structure, in the end Austria decided to resolve it all by war instead - probably inspired by its success in crushing the 48-49 revolts, but it should be a possibility somewhere in the chain.

Roger

[Christophe.Barot]

here it is

[ATTACH]25994[/ATTACH]

[color="#40E0D0"]// will work at once if at any point Austria loses control of Lombardia - Prussia is supposed to threaten to intervene, and France to cautiously react accordingly
// I dropped the "central Italy restoration of legitimate rulers" which was never implemented[/color]


SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Lombardia
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_VillafrancaArmistice1859|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_VillafrancaArmistice1859|Event-img_ITA_VillafrancaArmistice1859|$Lombardia|NULL

// http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Villafranca#The_peace

Conditions
MinDate = 1858/01/01
MaxDate = 1865/12/31

SelectFaction = $AUS
EvalIsAtWarWith = FRA
EvalIsAtWarWith = ITA

EvalRgnOwned = $Lombardia;NOT
[color="#40E0D0"]
// avoid checking if Lombardia is controlled by France Piedmont or Rebels, Austria could not hold it and lost it
//- they are therefore beaten period ![/color]

SelectFaction = $ITA

EvalRgnOwned = $Nice
EvalRgnOwned = $Savoie

EvalDiploItem = FRA;$diDefensiveTreaty

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_VillafrancaArmistice1859

SelectFaction = $FRA
ChgFacRelationships = ITA;-5
ChgFacRelationships = AUS;10
RemDiploItem = ITA;$diDefensiveTreaty
ChangeFacMorale = 10
ChangeVPCount = 100

SelectRegion = $Nice
ChangeRgnOwner = AUS
ChangeRgnOwner = ITA
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
ChangeLoyaltyFac = 100
SetControl = 100

SelectRegion = $Savoie
ChangeRgnOwner = AUS
ChangeRgnOwner = ITA
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
ChangeLoyaltyFac = 100
SetControl = 100

[color="#40E0D0"]// no compulsory chain of events needed, if they didn't agree beforehand at Plombieres, they agree now
// this is the price for French support, and Napoleon does not offer "free philanthropic rides"[/color]

SelectFaction = $ITA
RemDiploItem = AUS;$diCBLong
ChgRgnDecisionFP = $rgdProposeUnificationITA;1
ChangeFacMorale = -10
[color="#40E0D0"]// feel betrayed, still gains Lombardia[/color]
ChangeVPCount = 100

SelectRegion = $Lombardia
ChangeRgnOwner = AUS
ChangeRgnOwner = FRA
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
ChangeLoyaltyFac = 100
SetControl = 100

SelectFaction = $AUS
SettleWhitePeace = FRA
SettleWhitePeace = ITA
ChangeFacMorale = -10
ChgObjective = $Lombardia;0

SelectFaction = $ITA
AI.SetDiploItemBias = PAP;*War*;200;*CB*;200
AI.SetDiploItemBias = SIC;*War*;200;*CB*;200
AI.SetDiploItemBias = PAR;*War*;200;*CB*;200
AI.SetDiploItemBias = TOS;*War*;200;*CB*;200
AI.SetDiploItemBias = AUS;*War*;200;*CB*;200;*Military*;0
AI.SetDiploItemBias = FRA;*War*;50;*Military*;100
[color="#40E0D0"]
// those are 1860 values in anticipation[/color]

SelectFaction = $FRA
AI.SetDiploItemBias = AUS;*War*;100;*CB*;0;*Military*;50
AI.SetDiploItemBias = ITA;*War*;100;*CB*;50;*Military*;200

EndEvent

[sagji]

I think dropping the diplomatic relations between France and Italy required by the treaty of Polombiers from 25 (slightly friendly) to 0 (neutral) is wrong. I don't think it is in any way difficult for a player to achieve. A better solution would be to add events that make shift the relations that way - with a greater number when the nations are AI controlled.

You removed the requirement for the Treaty but you left in the penalty on France Italian relations for France failing to honour the treaty. The VillaFranca treaty did not include the transfer of Nice and Savoy - these were the price France was to be paid for Lombard and Venice, but when France settled for only Lombardy without agreement from Piedmont then France didn't get them. There were handed over to France later as its price for non-intervention in the dismemberment of the Papal states and formation of Central Italy.

The formation of Central Italy chain should only happen if Italy wins the war with Austria - historically it was a consequence of Italian occupation of the states during the war and the inability of Austria to do anything about it during or afterwards.

Garibaldi started when he did partly as a consequence of the transfer of Nice (there were concerns that he would try to retake it from the French so he was steered towards Sicily) So without Nice there should be a chance of non-appearance and a chance of a later start. More significant without a successful Piedmont would not hand Sicily over to Piedmont - he was actively opposed to an Italian monarchy, what he wanted was an Italian Republic. Piedmont's success convinced him that only Piedmont had a chance of uniting Italy.

[Christophe.Barot]

I think dropping the diplomatic relations between France and Italy required by the treaty of Plombiers from 25 (slightly friendly) to 0 (neutral) is wrong. I don't think it is in any way difficult [color="#FF0000"]for a player[/color] to achieve. A better solution would be to add events that make shift the relations that way - with a greater number when the nations are AI controlled.[color="#40E0D0"] - totally right, but complexifies script uselessly imho and is not foolproof - fact is usually relations will be OK, removing requirements only avoid unwanted unexpected effects like penalizing AI or unaware player forindirect effects of Germany active diplomacy, French improving Austrian-French relations regarding Germany or Balkans[/color]

You removed the requirement for the Treaty but you left in the penalty on France Italian relations for France failing to honour the treaty [color="#40E0D0"]- no, transfer happen, the two lines are there-[/color]. The VillaFranca treaty did not include the transfer of Nice and Savoy - these were the price France was to be paid for Lombard and Venice, but when France settled for only Lombardy without agreement from Piedmont then France didn't get them. There were handed over to France later as its price for non-intervention in the dismemberment of the Papal states and formation of Central Italy. [color="#40E0D0"]- right, I took detail liberty with history - detailed infra-
[/color]
The formation of Central Italy chain should only happen if Italy wins the war with Austria - historically it was a consequence of Italian occupation of the states during the war and the inability of Austria to do anything about it during or afterwards. - [color="#40E0D0"]possibly but usually it doesn't fire at all, and I recently discovered that due to external events and game mechanisms (level of losses, rate of military rebuilding - mechanisms - mobilization- too favourable to Austria), FP alliance may actually lose it - even independantly of extended Russian or Prussian ahistorical commitment - that makes REALLY too many gameplay factors against historical outcome, so I think SOME streamlining is in order - lest never see Piedmont take anything - presently Rome fires and that's all- didn't check in detail if FPW was for something[/color]

Garibaldi started when he did partly as a consequence of the transfer of Nice (there were concerns that he would try to retake it from the French so he was steered towards Sicily) So without Nice there should be a chance of non-appearance and a chance of a later start. More significant without a successful Piedmont would not hand Sicily over to Piedmont - he was actively opposed to an Italian monarchy, what he wanted was an Italian Republic. Piedmont's success convinced him that only Piedmont had a chance of uniting Italy.[color="#40E0D0"] once again, you right, but chain is so long and brittle that without streamlining it is bound to break at some point imho[/color]

You're absolutely [color="#40E0D0"]right historically[/color] - my intent was in terms of [color="#40E0D0"]gameplay[/color], and, I'd add [color="#40E0D0"]AI gameplay[/color], to ensure a "clean" northern situation by most efficient (internal mechanisms wise) meaning that :
[color="#40E0D0"]- Lombardy matter is settled[/color]
[color="#40E0D0"]- Nice-Savoie transfer is settled[/color]
[color="#40E0D0"]- France is free to defend Rome if must be, or remove her troops if other circumstances require it [/color](basically at least Prussian war, possibly Mexico expedition), then France is no longer here
-[color="#40E0D0"] Italy is free to proceed to other southern (i.e non Austrian lands) expansion (if possible independantly)[/color] - this no longer requiring France help and not drawing Austria opposition (we can write an event drawing Austria opposition (which imho should be) before Piedmont getting Lombardia and another when acquisition of Lombardia takes place (without Lomnbardia Austria has less of interest/involvment but for keeping her - rebellious- Italian buffer provinces - namely Venezia and Udine, further Rrent Trieste and Dalmatian coast - partly Italian)
[color="#40E0D0"]- Italy is free to ally Prussia against Austria [/color](which should usually condition her gain of Venezia-Udine - plus Lombardia would 2d unification war fail, which can very well happen even with french help - I forced the war, Piedmont then France surrendered in 3 turns - Austria had a ratio of strength of 2:1 against F-I alliance) [color="#40E0D0"]without French alliance interfering [/color](in my game bad prussian relations with France, or not good enough, made it extremely difficult

you must keep in mind that problem is not a French player getting Savoie-Nice (he'll not weaken Austria, he'll not wait a broken chain of events never fire or exceptionally fire), he'll go, attack Piedmont right away, take Nice or Savoie or both, and let weakened Piedmont never achieve Italy unity - we'll have a full game without Italy united, as are most of campaign games (and I'd bet all games with AI Italy/Piedmont)

It is not an Italian player one, who'll micromanage game and Piedmont then Italy industry like hell so that soon or late he'll have the material basis to win a war against Austria by his own means (a gaming feat, as it requires constant micromanaing precise play, but is feasible, but an absolute historical impossibility - question is not Italian soldier individual courage, is just Piedmont and even united Italy wasn't of size against Austria - no chance, in a duel, wasn't a 50/50 or even 33/66, was a zero chance of win ! period !) not hand Savoie Nice to France obviously, and then turn against ? France ? Britain ? Russia ? Prussia (Germany will hardly unite under AI) ? USA ? with such an Italian power, we've shifted to sandbox open unpredictable un-AI- manageable area - which is bound to happen anytime a player achieve ahistorical astounding successes - which a player naturally strive to do - in such case, you'll have a united Italy, and no Savoie-Nice transfer
[color="#40E0D0"]
problem is[/color] [color="#40E0D0"]AI managed Piedmont with AI managed France, because AI chain of events does not fire [/color]- don't expect AI make extensive use of support like a player do (at least me). What is easy for a player is uncertain , and unable to correct for AI - In my prussian game, my strong relations with Italy worsened by billiard-like effect Italian relation with France and prombieres never fired ! I had to force Plombieres (was testing the chain too, as well as playing a German game) - which is technically a cheat (from a Prussian point of view, lol). and after forcing it and in spite of a sound diplomatic effort, getting Italian alliance was a hell - how can you give Italy Venice and Udine in such conditions !

so what is easy for a player is out of reach for AI !

so it seems to me we have the [color="#40E0D0"]dilemna [/color]:
[color="#40E0D0"]
- either sticking to the exact chain of events, seing them never to fire [/color](Id bet with certainty that nobody has ever seen AI Italian unification happen in his games, ever ! - but forcing it, taking Italy, making a script ..) - I'm very much interested in any feedback of your games to you all

- or[color="#40E0D0"] streamlining events, taking detail[/color] (question is of course what level of detail is acceptable) [color="#40E0D0"]liberties with history[/color], and see the [color="#40E0D0"](new) chain of evens happen most of time with some globally historical look and internal game logic[/color] - but yes you slightly alter the logic in its details- you'll see garibaldi attck Sicily and hand it to Piedmont, you'll see Italy get Lombardy with French help, get Rome, and give Savoie+Nice to french (because I don't think Napoleon III would have let Italy form as a potential competitor without getting them first or at least simultaneously) but internal logic will have been somehow altered in details

[color="#40E0D0"]it was this script spirit, and so was the Austrian-Prussian peace script[/color], as the designer can not be reasonably sure of even Italy participation of 1867 war (or even occurence of it, in my Prussian game, NGF formed naturally thanks to my efficient diplomacy - no need of a war - that imho AI will rarely even risk - APW is not like FPW, here no numbers advantage for Prussian, and AI will test that - so I saved to have an APW war battle test one day, but proceeded my unification without worsening relations with Austria, needless and stupid as I will have to repair relations later - needless to say my 1878 Bismarckian system is foolproof and with Industrialization germany has already won the game at this stage - with Germany it's easy )

- third possibility, as a remainder, is forcing the events to happen 100% of time, but I discard it, as it is not suitable to a game, imho

of course I may be wrong in details - I was under impression that the Savoie-Nice was delayed (yes, wasn't at Villafranca) compensation for Lombardy help , and that French withdrew from Rome when forced by other events, and not under Italian pressure - so my event reasonably makes rather likely that both transfers will happen, with internal logic respecting historical trends (yes, not the details, i agree, and we'll have the same for principalties crisis, as Russia does not need to go through Wallachia or Moldavia to go to ottoman throat through Adrianople - Dobrudja is enough ! will have to tinker with that - matter of design priorities) and yes, disregarding the exact letter of treaties

I am absolutely open to improvements and suggestions, and grateful for you for your input (I wish I had more in other subjects)
[color="#40E0D0"]
so, what do you suggest ! [/color]- as the present historical chain does not fire, and because of game mechanisms is likely seldom to fire at all
- In my game, Italians got Rome, Plombieres never happen, Sicily, Tuscany, Austrian held Italian lands never will be Italian


cheers
Christophe

[loki100]

The formation of Central Italy chain should only happen if Italy wins the war with Austria - historically it was a consequence of Italian occupation of the states during the war and the inability of Austria to do anything about it during or afterwards.

I'd actually disagree here (sorry). What happened was that after the war started, a series of Republican (more than Nationalist) revolts broke out in Parma, Firenze and Bologna. By the time of Solferino these, esp in Parma, were well on the way to full blown social revolutions.

Now, none of Cavour, Louis Napoleon, the local rulers or the Austrians, wanted that outcome. It was one reason why L-N pulled the plug on the war as he feared this uprising would trigger a return to the spirit of 1848 as well as directly threaten the Pope. Cavour was keen to suppress the social revolutionary aspect.

In the south, the same dynamics worked out. The Piedmontese army took the surrender of the Bourbon troops that were at the Volturno (after the essentially drawn battle with Garibaldi) and to disarm Garibaldi - something that Cavour would have done by force if need be. Equally once it was clear that all Cavour had done was to remove the King but leave the entire social system intact. This is the logic of the classic line in il gatopardo about allowing the illusion of change in order to keep everything the same. The tragic result was a massive peasant revolt that lasted 4 years and saw more Italian soldiers killed than had fallen in the battles of 1859-61 (as ever no-one bothered to count the dead peasants).

For the game, I'd say keep it simple though. I've discussed this with Christophe elsewhere and a good rule of thumb is 'could you imagine the world of 1910 without this' - which means I would tend to make the historical Italian and German unifications and the decline of Ottoman power in the Balkans happen almost by default. Its not an argument that what happened was the most likely outcome at the time, but that if it hadn't happened when/how it did, it would still have occured. If 1859-61 had failed, Italian nationalism (in all its forms) was not going to give up, equally if Bulgaria et al hadn't escaped Ottoman rule in the crises at the end of the 1870s then that too would have happened at some time.

edit - when I say 'by default' I mean in situations when it is AI vs AI, if a player is involved you make your own luck.

[sagji]

But part of the wars outcome was that Austria was unable to intervene to restore the Status Quo. If Austria had won the war that would not be the case.

This isn't to say that there should not be other events later - such as a similar effect during the 7 weeks war.

If Central Italy is a recurring problem, and Garibaldi is busy trying to form an Italian Republic I can see Austria accepting Piedmont's occupation and annexation of the states as the lesser evil compared to them joining Garibaldi's republic.

I agree that the historical outcome should be the dominant result - but I think it needs to cope better with different outcomes for the various events. I think player action should be more about when Italy forms and what structure it has. So formation by Piedmont and Garibaldi result in different forms of Italy but it is still a unified Italy.

[Christophe.Barot]

OK I took note of Sagji objections, and checkd, so, still to streamline events, here are my proposals

1) Villafranca - only Lombardia change hands, for now




SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Lombardia
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_VillafrancaArmistice1859|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_VillafrancaArmistice1859|Event-img_ITA_VillafrancaArmistice1859|$Lombardia|NULL

// http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Villafranca#The_peace

Conditions
MinDate = 1858/01/01
MaxDate = 1865/12/31

SelectFaction = $AUS
EvalIsAtWarWith = FRA
EvalIsAtWarWith = ITA

EvalRgnOwned = $Lombardia;NOT

// avoid checking if Lombardia is controlled by France Piedmont or Rebels, Austria could not hold it and lost it
//- they are therefore beaten period !

SelectFaction = $ITA

EvalRgnOwned = $Nice
EvalRgnOwned = $Savoie

EvalDiploItem = FRA;$diDefensiveTreaty

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_VillafrancaArmistice1859

SelectFaction = $FRA
ChgFacRelationships = ITA;-5
ChgFacRelationships = AUS;10
RemDiploItem = ITA;$diDefensiveTreaty
ChangeFacMorale = 10
ChangeVPCount = 100

SelectFaction = $ITA
RemDiploItem = AUS;$diCBLong
ChgRgnDecisionFP = $rgdProposeUnificationITA;1
ChangeFacMorale = -10
// feel betrayed, still gains Lombardia
ChangeVPCount = 100

SelectRegion = $Lombardia
ChangeRgnOwner = AUS
ChangeRgnOwner = FRA
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
ChangeLoyaltyFac = 100
SetControl = 100

SelectFaction = $AUS
SettleWhitePeace = FRA
SettleWhitePeace = ITA
ChangeFacMorale = -10
ChgObjective = $Lombardia;0

SelectFaction = $ITA
AI.SetDiploItemBias = PAP;*War*;200;*CB*;200
AI.SetDiploItemBias = SIC;*War*;200;*CB*;200
AI.SetDiploItemBias = PAR;*War*;200;*CB*;200
AI.SetDiploItemBias = TOS;*War*;200;*CB*;200
AI.SetDiploItemBias = AUS;*War*;200;*CB*;200;*Military*;0
AI.SetDiploItemBias = FRA;*War*;50;*Military*;100

// those are 1860 values in anticipation

SelectFaction = $FRA
AI.SetDiploItemBias = AUS;*War*;100;*CB*;0;*Military*;50
AI.SetDiploItemBias = ITA;*War*;100;*CB*;50;*Military*;200

EndEvent

[Christophe.Barot]

basically I checked more in depth details (always had in mind the original deal / Nice+Savoie versus Lombardia+Venezia transforming into versus Lombardia only, the remaining being "mopping up" in my mind) found this in Wikipedia, sorry it's in French, will translate

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronologie_de_l%27unification_de_l%27Italie#1859

1er mars : Napoléon III réclame officiellement les compensations (le duché de Savoie et le comté de Nice).
11-12 mars : Par un plébiscite, les habitants de Parme, Modène, des Légations et de Toscane votent leur réunion au royaume de Sardaigne.
24 mars : Au Traité de Turin entre la France et le royaume de Sardaigne, la Savoie et Nice sont données à la France.

[color="#00FFFF"]so everything happens in a short time span, I'll ven shorten for game need, maning a link
1 march, Napoleon officially demands compensations - Nice-Savoy
11-12 march, series of plebiscites (perhaps as rigged as Nice one, perhaps way less- saw "Il gattopardo- intersting") central italia joins united Italy
24 march, treaty of Torino and transfer[/color]

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Piemonte
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_Torinotreaty_and_sequels|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_VTorinotreaty_and_sequels|Event-img_ITA_Torinotreaty_and_sequels|$Piemonte|NULL


Conditions
MinDate = 1859/03/01
MaxDate = 1865/12/31

[color="#00FFFF"]// we can link move to either Italian having Lombardia (Austrian lost) or war not happening (Austrian chicken), any of them working
// or drop the conditionality
[/color]
SelectFaction = $ITA

EvalRgnOwned = $Nice
EvalRgnOwned = $Savoie

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_Torinotreaty_and_sequels

[color="#00FFFF"]// to make[/color]

SelectFaction = $FRA
ChgFacRelationships = ITA;10

SelectRegion = $Nice
ChangeRgnOwner = AUS
ChangeRgnOwner = ITA
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
ChangeLoyaltyFac = 100
SetControl = 100

SelectRegion = $Savoie
ChangeRgnOwner = AUS
ChangeRgnOwner = ITA
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
ChangeLoyaltyFac = 100
SetControl = 100

[color="#00FFFF"]// rationale, is compensation for a free hand to Piedmont- with protection - to unite Italy[/color]

SelectFaction = $ITA

ChgRgnDecisionFP = $rgdProposeUnificationITA;1

SelectRegion = $Toscana
ChangeRgnOwner = AUS
ChangeRgnOwner = FRA
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
ChangeRgnOwner = TOS
ChangeLoyaltyFac = 100
SetControl = 100

SelectRegion = $Po
ChangeRgnOwner = AUS
ChangeRgnOwner = FRA
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
ChangeRgnOwner = PAR
ChangeLoyaltyFac = 100
SetControl = 100

SelectRegion = $Romagna
ChangeRgnOwner = AUS
ChangeRgnOwner = FRA
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
ChangeRgnOwner = PAP
ChangeLoyaltyFac = 100
SetControl = 100

AbsorbFaction = PAR;100;100;100;100;100;100;100
AbsorbFaction = TOS;100;100;100;100;100;100;100

EndEvent

[color="#00FFFF"]// so basically we take act of reality, that is control by Piemontese (little states were no match and Austria being no match or choosing not to fight
// (which often happens when French army hasn't been bled white by another conflict - saw that in Crimean war, + Austrian mobilization, impressive !)
// remains Lombardia, won or not, Rome and Kingdom of two sicilies - Lombardia fate is treated above[/color]

[Christophe.Barot]

checking Rome, actually French prevented Italians to unite with Rome way earlier, but not then, and Rome unification was done when Garibaldi closed to rome
to avoid complications with both any idea of republicanism or with catholics (well, 99% of Italy was catholic you know, even in Piedmont, even united Italy patriots)
Piedmont chose to move and take control before garibaldi did

well, I suggest we just assume Piedmont is a bit more visionary and takes control earlier - as soon as Garibaldi takes foot in Sicily, "just in case, one is never too cautious"
and " we can't really take chances with the Pope you know, too important, for his own good, who know what the hordes under Garibaldi would do to him"
so, as soon as Garibaldi set foot in SDicily, Piedmont moves and takes Rome ! - plesbiscite (rigged or not, anyway, it's yes or yes,
and was a time with enthusiasm where there was no place d for doubt - Northen league is a recent thing - so Rome is united ! period !

[ATTACH]26039[/ATTACH]


remains Two Sicilies and Garibaldi events - I let Loki tune this up finely - and Lombardia-Venetia

here is Rome




[color="#40E0D0"]// Roma falling as soon as Garibaldi set foot in Naples
// we can anticipate considering that Piedmont "protect" Rome earlier, as he "fears" Garibaldi comes up from Sicily
// remains to set Two Sicilies event right - Loki ?[/color]

SelectFaction = $CMN
SelectRegion = $Lazzio
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_Roma_e_Italia|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_Roma_e_Italia|Event-img_ITA_Roma_e_Italia|$Lazzio|NULL

Conditions
MinDate = 1859/01/01
MaxDate = 1871/01/01
Probability = 50
[color="#40E0D0"]// JUST TO GIVE A DELAY BUT INTERVENTION OF PIEDMONT WITHOUT POWERS - FRA -AUS INTERVENTION IS A CERTAINTY[/color]

EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiSicily1860;=;1
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_Torinotreaty_and_sequels;=;1

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_Roma_e_Italia

SelectFaction = $ITA

ChgRgnDecisionFP = $rgdProposeUnificationITA;1

SelectRegion = $Lazzio
ChangeRgnOwner = AUS
ChangeRgnOwner = FRA
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
ChangeRgnOwner = PAP
ChangeLoyaltyFac = 100
SetControl = 100



AbsorbFaction = PAP;100;100;100;100;100;100;100

EndEvent

[sagji]

For Turin you are ignoring the possibility that Italy chickens out, or that a French player would prefer Italy not unified so doesn't participate, or that there is a was and it ends in stalemate. Also if details of the Polombiers treaty had leaked then Austria would have been able to justify not starting the war as it was being orchestrated by France. All of these leave Austria willing and required to prevent the annexation. The way I see it the only Way Turin can happen at this point is if Italy wins.

If Piedmont gains Lombardy later - say from intervention in the Austro Prussian war - then it would trigger later.

If Piedmont doesn't gain Lombardy then Garibaldi would not hand over Sicily and start trying to form an Italian Republic - if Garibaldi takes Rome then Austria should get the option to hand over Lombardy to Piedmont (triggering Turin) as a lesser evil than letting Garibaldi get them. Probably in exchange for Piedmont dropping claims to Venice.


Historically Savoy and Nice were France's price for not intervening in support of Rome.

I think moving forward the Piedmont occupation of Rome is wrong - historically they declared war on the Papal States and defeated the Papal army just to get their army to Naples to support Garibaldi. They then went home leaving the Papal States extant. There was significant concern at the time that the attack would bring substantial international support for the Papal States. Annexation of the Papal States six months earlier simply wasn't an option.


You also are ending up with unification as some minor event that just happens. It should be the main focus of Piedmont's activity for the first decade or two of the game, and players should be choosing Piedmont just to play the unification.

[Christophe.Barot]

For Turin you are ignoring the possibility that Italy chickens out, or that a French player would prefer Italy not unified so doesn't participate, or that there is a was and it ends in stalemate. Also if details of the Polombiers treaty had leaked then Austria would have been able to justify not starting the war as it was being orchestrated by France. All of these leave Austria willing and required to prevent the annexation. The way I see it the only Way Turin can happen at this point is if Italy wins.

If Piedmont gains Lombardy later - say from intervention in the Austro Prussian war - then it would trigger later.

If Piedmont doesn't gain Lombardy then Garibaldi would not hand over Sicily and start trying to form an Italian Republic - if Garibaldi takes Rome then Austria should get the option to hand over Lombardy to Piedmont (triggering Turin) as a lesser evil than letting Garibaldi get them. Probably in exchange for Piedmont dropping claims to Venice.


Historically Savoy and Nice were France's price for not intervening in support of Rome.

I think moving forward the Piedmont occupation of Rome is wrong - historically they declared war on the Papal States and defeated the Papal army just to get their army to Naples to support Garibaldi. They then went home leaving the Papal States extant. There was significant concern at the time that the attack would bring substantial international support for the Papal States. Annexation of the Papal States six months earlier simply wasn't an option.


You also are ending up with unification as some minor event that just happens. It should be the main focus of Piedmont's activity for the first decade or two of the game, and players should be choosing Piedmont just to play the unification.

many true things - a few enlightments though :

- preventing Italian unification AND getting Nice and Savoy is an ahistorical - in sense of it is an un-Napoleonic choice
- as Napoleon wanted to play nationalisms against established (anti french barrier) holy alliance order, basically it is an anti metternichian approach
- renewing the napoleonic (glory, grandeur) and revolutionary ambitions (Empire did certainly not meant peace, that was propaganda) while drawing lessons from past (allying with foreign nationalism rather than fighting it, not antagonizing britain at any price) was Napoleonic strategy, it worked well in Italy, did not work with Germany were Napoleon confronted another revisionism which proved uncompatible with his own, and a partner even more devious than him.

I do not wish to give France much options barring support Italy for the following reasons, which pleads for mmore automatism :

The risk is indeed to have historical constraints not formulated ingame (and have only a half historical game, where starting situation is there, but not the motivation) and a devious but logical french PLAYER drop Italy, or worse, try to obtain by war what should ONLY be given by agreement (Savoy and Nice taken by France by force would no doubt have provoked a large anti French coalition), with the second thought that a stronger Austria will efficiently repel a Prussian unification.

Ditto there is the risk that an Italian player plays an ahistorical game (not in the sense that the outcome isn't the same, that's inherent to game) but in sense of not having same constraints and priorities (Savoy and Nice being way less important than Lombardy, Venetia , and the rest of Italy, or even Lombardy and a benevolent french attitude towards central Italy) to keep Nice-Savoy because they would have an ahistorical value compared to Lombardy

all this for me pleads for some automatisms * if certain conditions happen

- removing ahistorical Austrian chicken play (as, idiocy factor aside, Austria was NOT aware of Plombières- I don't see the point in privileging ahistorical knowlegde/spy hypothesis)
perhaps we should then keep treaty secret and add automatically alliance and war declaration (if Plombieres fires)
- Lombardy cession (Villafranca) immediate would Franco-Pedmontese control it at ANY stage
- not blocking Italian unification process if something goes wrong, which may be totally unrelated to historical logic and player/AI game, but may come from a complex chain of events breaking, and if possible, with a logic in events and a simple chain

Idea is that if things goes wrong in the chain of events (2 games, one Russian, one german, none of even an attempt at taking Lombardia, this is not good, this is not acceptable a situation) absence of Lombardia must not block the unification process (especially as Prussia may now create NGF without Austrian war, or that initial conditions did not include Italian ally transfer of venetia)

Turin treaty was aimed at allowing Italy to proceed to unification (and getting more military muscle) would the complex chain break - central Italy being no match
- streamlining this had a logic - France ensures Italy from a support (France got Nice-Savoy as a "pourboire") -either Italy has Lombardia or Austria has chickened from France threrat - I assume then that she'll chicken again from French deterrence that I make automatic (that was the price to pay for Nice Savoy, and i guess this time Napoleon pays it fully, no war to wage, just preventing a war with Austria, and no, historically, and realistically that is not an option I want to give to a French player, ahistorically backstabbing Italy after getting his compensation, as it didn't happen - just streamlining, so, yes, I favour automaticity)

* I don't think it's placing the player into historical Napoleonic (III, the nephew) boots to give him ahistorical hindsight Thiers got after sadowa - so anti Austrian schemes must, imho, remain hardcoded as much as Italy at least is concerned (preferably, a German status quo should cost the French victory imho, else). As I don't want to script tons of complicated rules for realistic coalitions taking in account extremely numerous and complex situations, I settled for a [color="#40E0D0"]simpler scheme "Italy tries for Lombardy - if she succeeds or Austria doesn't move and so nothing happens in Lombardy, it doesn't block unification"[/color] - that was the first of proposals (the other one was, we launch it anyhow)

// we can link move to either Italian having Lombardia (Austrian lost) or war not happening (Austrian chicken), any of them working or drop the conditionality

I take note you plead for keeping conditionality - OK

so yes it is a simplification, but what is the alternative ? I mean for an Italian AI - Italy never forming, even if likely.

While an Italian player will normally play for unite Italy, may succeed by long patience and abnormal long war, he still may encounter obstacles his historical counterpart never met, namely (Identified two in the short span of italian events ) :

- French player may drop the Italian thing (as the real french player won't be a carbonari, and Pocus, Philthib and myself won't head towards his home to shoot him in the head or bomb him if he doesn't help the Italian player, it's already good he bouight the game ..), for already ahistorical motives infra
- French player may not not stand a chance - forever "as AI won't have recovered from losses (saw that, French army must have been bled white in Ukraine, Crimean war you know)

so what is already abnormally hard for a player will be a total impossibility for the AI - and as a consequence of several things - chain of events broken, unexpected billard-like consequences of other alliances or other wars - and giving a plain illogic (from the Italian point of view) situation.

So [color="#40E0D0"]my proposal[/color] has been to take a few minor liberties with chain of events to allow the trend to follow her historical effects, with internal game logic :

a) making war with Austria more likely (which is the real situation, the abnormality is Austria chickening from ) - needs either automaticity (frustrating for a war) or perhaps simulating the effects of secret treaty (that is Plombieres wasn't communicated to Austrian ambassador) -[color="#FF0000"] but still, no Austrian player will declare war except in military superiority on France[/color]

b) making loss of Lombardy automatic (Villafrance armistice) [color="#FF0000"]if [/color](it's a big if) controlled by FRA/ITA at any point

c) trying to make good for miss of Lombardy in 1867 -[color="#FF0000"] but that assumes a 1867 war, which is not certain[/color]

d) as all of this is not certain, depends on other nations actions on outside theater, allow Italy to beef up a bit, especially if AI, both for balance, and for historicity
balance is obvious, historicity is that most central Italy was rather favourable, or even enthusiastic about unification, and that an open French support (as i said, not for free) would clearly have deterred Austria to intervene - that is an historical situation - [color="#FF0000"]Austria wouldn't have risked a war with France[/color] for lland not her own (she actually declared war on Piedmont, not knowing France would follow)

the advantage : giving something to the player to boost his nation (even with central Italy resources, confronting Austria in a dual - as in this hypothesis

which makes certainly central Italy, and possibly Rome ...

we have then several choices :
- make central Italy an independant process from Lombardy , without incorporating Rome (there is surefire an historical backing - it didn't happen that way - but the trade off ... was the Turin treaty which is historically a reality, and central Italy was ripe, this too is not a departure from historical conditions)
- make central Italy, Rome included, an independant process from Lombardy - was my most extreme proposal, you underline several drawbacks (an important one is it was historically way more difficult than described, ok, another one is frustrating Italian player from an important task - I fully sympathetize with both) - problem of course is that Garibaldi event seems broken - other know better than me, but I never saw it succeed
- binding central Italy to Lombardia - certainly the most satisfactory ... [color="#FF0000"]if it worked[/color], but here several chains are broken

for :
- [color="#FF0000"]war between Austria and France is not a sure thing,[/color] and even war between Austria and Italy isn't - of course we could offer the Austrian player a choice with options, but incorporating an idiocy factor may be histoirical and gamwise, but won't work ... with an Austrian player - either you force the war, or Lombardia and Villafranca won't happen
- [color="#FF0000"]victory of Franco-Italian[/color], which was historically not certain, but while likely for qualitative factors [color="#FF0000"]may be totally jeopardized[/color], not by normal player talent or just normal chances, but by game mechanisms out of Italian theater whose correcting is somehow beyond my scripting abilities (that is attrition due to Crimean war, and mobilization capability of Austria, not France), which is not historical at all

so I try to correct a gamey anomaly by altering - as slightly as possible- the flow of events, which looks preferable for me to a massive arti ficial build up (I can add 20 French corps on the map, but am very reluctant to do that, seems a really worse solution)

in ideal situation, Garibaldi chain wouldn't be broken, and Austria would make war to France and Piedmont and lose 75% of time (minimum 66%), but things are not so and Italy never forms (but for Rome in my current game, thanks to Philippe's regional decisions ) and france don't get Savoy-Nice either - both detrimental both for historicity and game balance imho

so, awaiting some steps can be taken to reduce Crimean french attrition consequences when happens, and coder take mobilization problem, I'd suggest not linking central Italy to Lombardia - but will comply to consensus

for Rome, let's help Loki can fix garibaldi events ....

I'm still concerned by present situation which is Italy artificially prevented from uniting (especially AI ) which looks for me worse than anything,

anyway, rest assured it wont be a personal decision of mine, and go on reacting - I wish lots did like you

and now, [color="#FF0000"]its time,[/color] [color="#00FFFF"]happy and merry[/color] [color="#FFFF00"]new year for [/color][color="#00FF00"]you all and family[/color]

[loki100]

Again, think its worth thinking over what we want here.

First what is the connection between Garibaldi's actions in the south from the question of an Piedmontese (+ French) - Austrian war.

My reading is it followed from the limited gains in the war (which is how it is scripted in game), we know that a sizeable chunk of G's 1000 (or far more) was actually Piedmontese soldiers and there is the dubious actions of the British fleet. But there was also a bit of Cavour giving in to something he couldn't stop, so its not simply in the gift of a S-P player or AI.

So I think the G in the south chain (which I will rework soon) is best seen separate. In that case there should be an event chain that I think ends 3 ways. A Bourbon victory (not as impossible as myth would tell us), G setting up a Republic or Cavour intervening. For game reasons I don't like the independent Republic outcome and a Bourbon victory is handled by the game with the alternative Italian unification chain.

I actually think something would have happened even if S-P had been beaten - in a way the radicals and republicans would have seen that as proof that Cavour's conservatism and desire to take the Prussian road was a failure. So I guess here I am arguing that the Garibaldi in the south chain is independent of the Piombieres chain.

Second, assuming we are looking at dynamics between AI controlled countries (S-P, France, Austria) then I tend to pushing the actual outcome as the most likely result. This is not a historical/political analysis, just that, as with German unification, its hard to see a realistic late nineteenth century without Italy. If players are involved, well S-P must still work hard to prepare, a French player can weigh their interests, is Nice-Savoy worth the outcome. Equally such a player would probably manage their relations with the new Italy better than in reality. An Austrian player can try to fly the flag for reaction, but even so will find it hard to control events south of the Po (the alternative event chain).

As a compromise what I like is:

We have or don't Austrian war
G does his thing - ends with victory or defeat
S-P gives up Nice and Savoy for the right to intervene in Rome
I like the idea of sagji of Austria settling its dispute with S-P by handing over Milan in order that Cavour feels confident to go and end the Republican menace

sorry this is more suggestions and questions than contribution, but I come back to my basic question do we want/need a historical Italy (perhaps no Veneto) by the 1880s or not?

[Christophe.Barot]

very quickly from me :

I would tend to side with your views - making at least Central Italy gain (perhaps Rome) automatic if Italy is AI controlled (AI isn't bright/scripted/coded enough to dispense of this jhelp I fear)

keep south independant perhaps even for AI

Rome integrated to your chain of elements and not automatic, at least if there is a player - if there is no player, you see, in my game there was no Garibaldi but Rome is Italian by play of regional decisions - so all in all, I think at least for AI , an automatic trade off Toscana+Po+Romagna+Lazzio looks less ahistorical than present programming

btw Austria didn't move either - of course, I (Prussia) had probably a defensive alliance with her then, but, anyway, there is no provisio for Austria being Italy's gendarme anyway. - perhaps I should write some, in the mood of Austria reacting in Germany, but and if I do that, I want both Austrian reaction in Germany validated and Italian chain of event sorted out first

[loki100]

Here's a revision to the Garibaldi chain - I've simplified it a bit down to a yes/no decision on the Volturno as my goal is to make the as provided chain work. We need to think about integration with the rest of the Italian events (incl the alternative unification option) and I'll make a suggestion about that elsewhere. So:

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Napoli
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_KingOfSiciliesDied1859|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_KingOfSiciliesDied1859|Event-img_ITA_KingOfSiciliesDied1859|$Napoli|NULL

Conditions
MinDate = 1859/05/22
MaxDate = 1860/10/22
EvalRuler = $ruler_SIC_Francesco2;1;NOT
Probability = 75

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_KingOfSiciliesDied1859

SelectFaction = $SIC
ChangeFacMorale = -10

EndEvent

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiSicily1860|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_GaribaldiSicily1860|Event-img_ITA_GaribaldiSicily1860|$Sicilia|NULL

Conditions
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_KingOfSiciliesDied1859;=;1
MinDate = 1860/04/01
MaxDate = 1860/08/01
Probability = 50

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_GaribaldiSicily1860
AddDiploItem = SIC;$diCBLong;CURRENT

SelectFaction = $SIC
ChangeFacMorale = -10

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
SelectSubUnits = Region $Sicilia;FactionTags SIC
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill

SelectFaction = $REB
SelectRegion = $Sicilia

SelectFaction = $REB
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
CreateGroup
Posture = $Defensive
SetKind = $Land
FixType = 0
SetName = Corpo de Voluntari
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Garibaldi2
SetName = Giuseppe Garibaldi
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Inf_1850M_Div
SUFlavorName = 1° Rgt. Volontari |2° Rgt. Volontari |3° Rgt. Volontari |4° & 5° Rgt. Volontari |Artigliera Volontari
SetLevel = 5
SetName = Division de Voluntari
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Inf_1850L_Bde
SUFlavorName = Bersaglieri Genovesi |Rgt. Guide
SetLevel = 4
SetName = I Cacciatori delle Alpi
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Pio_Pio1850
FlavorName = Paolo Griffini
SUFlavorName = 1° Cp. zappatori del Genio |8°Cp. zappatori del Genio
SetLevel = 5
SetName = Zappatori del Genio
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Sup_Sup1
SUFlavorName = 1e Cia|2e Cia|3e Cia|4e Cia
SetLevel = 3
SetName = Volunteers Supply
Apply

EndEvent

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860|Event-img_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860|$Sicilia|NULL

Conditions
MinDate = 1860/04/01
MaxDate = 1860/06/01
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiSicily1860;=;1
Probability = 50

SelectFaction = $Reb
SelectRegion = $Sicilia

SelectRegion = $Sicilia
ChangeRgnOwner = SIC

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
SelectSubUnits = Region $Sicilia;FactionTags SIC
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill
SelectSubUnits = Region $Sicilia;FactionTags REB
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
ChgVPCount = 20

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
CreateGroup
Posture = $Defensive
SetKind = $Land
Entranch = 4
InCS = 1
FixType = 999
SetName = Palermo
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_FortArt_1840
NumCreate = 1
SUFlavorName = 1st Co 1st Brigade
SetLevel = 3
SetName = Fortress Artilley
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Gar_1840_Rgt
NumCreate = 1
SUFlavorName = Palermo Fortifications Garrison
SetLevel = 3
SetName = Fortress Garrison
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Inf_1840M_Bde
NumCreate = 2
SUFlavorName = 11e Carabinieri|12e Carabinieri
SetLevel = 3
SetName = Sicilia Carabinieri
Apply
ChangeLoyaltyFac = $Area_Southern_Italy;25
ChgRgnDecisionFP = $rgdProposeUnificationITA;1

EndEvent

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Calabria
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860|Event-img_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860|$Calabria|NULL

Conditions
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiPalermo1860;=;1
MinDate = 1860/10/01
MaxDate = 1860/11/01
Probability = 75

Actions
DescEvent = evt_desc_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860

SelectFaction = $SIC
ChangeFacMorale = -10

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Calabria
SelectSubUnits = Region $Calabria;FactionTags SIC
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill
ChangeRgnOwner = REB

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
SelectSubUnits = Region $Sicilia;FactionTags REB
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill

SelectFaction = $REB
SelectRegion = $Calabria

SelectFaction = $REB
SelectRegion = $Calabria
CreateGroup
Posture = $Defensive
SetKind = $Land
FixType = 0
SetName = Corpo de Voluntari
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Garibaldi2
SetName = Giuseppe Garibaldi
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Inf_1850M_Div
SUFlavorName = 1° Rgt. Volontari |2° Rgt. Volontari |3° Rgt. Volontari |4° & 5° Rgt. Volontari
SetLevel = 4
SetName = Division de Voluntari
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Inf_1850L_Bde
SUFlavorName = Bersaglieri genovesi |Rgt. Guide
SetLevel = 4
SetName = I Cacciatori delle Alpi
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Pio_Pio1850
FlavorName = Paolo Griffini
SUFlavorName = 1° Cp. zappatori del Genio |8°Cp. zappatori del Genio
SetLevel = 5
SetName = Zappatori del Genio
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_ITA_Sup_Sup1
SUFlavorName = 1e Cia|2e Cia|3e Cia|4e Cia
SetLevel = 3
SetName = Volunteers Supply
Apply

EndEvent

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Napoli
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiWins|1|2|Null|Null|$Napoli|N ULL

Conditions
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860;=;1

MinDate = 1860/11/01

Actions

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Puglia
ChangeRgnOwner = SIC
SelectRegion = $Sicilia
ChangeRgnOwner = SIC
SelectSubUnits = Area $Area_Southern_Italy;FactionTags REB
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill

EndEvent

SelectFaction = $ITA
SelectRegion = $Napoli
StartEvent = evt_nam_ITA_Garibaldifails|1|2|evt_txt_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860|Event-img_ITA_GaribaldiNaples1860|$Napoli|NULL

Conditions
EvalEvent = evt_nam_ITA_GaribaldiCalabria1860;=;0

SelectFaction = $SIC

SelectSubUnits = Area $Area_Southern_Italy;FactionTags REB
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplyToList;Kill

SelectFaction = $SIC

SelectRegion = $Sicilia
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
SelectRegion = $Puglia
ChangeRgnOwner = REB
EndEvent

What I've done is given the key event: 'GaribaldiCalabria1860' 2 chances to fire in November 1860 at a 75% chance each time (so a probability of 92.5%), If it fires, Italy takes control and the rest of the event chain gives them central Italy. If it fails, then we assume the Voltuno was a Bourbon victory and that regime limps on for a while - unless S-P takes advantage against a much weakened enemy?