hattrick
Lieutenant
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:09 am

Military control bug

Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:10 am

Hello Pocus, :hat:

Can you please look at this save.

When you load the save you need to move Hooker from Escambia Fl. to Sparta AL. then run the turn.

There should be a battle between Taylor and Hooker, Hooker should lose. After the battle Hooker is still in Sparta but without any military control. If you run the turn again he will go into attack posture and attack even if you change the posture or try to move him out of the region.

I believe you will see whats wrong easily.

Thanks!
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Hooker vs Taylor battle bug1861 RebsvsYanks~USA.zip
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Pocus
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Location: Lyon (France)

Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:40 pm

I'll check that this week.
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Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

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Gray Fox
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Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:53 pm

As a learning example, let's look at the situation from your point of view.

Taylor's force has at least two Divisions that you can ID. Other CSA Divisions that you can recon more clearly elsewhere on the map have an average of 500+ power. So Taylor might have 1000 power. However, some CSA Divisions have 700+ power, so the worst case scenario is that you may be going to attack at 1:1 odds.

[ATTACH]33323[/ATTACH]

By the icon for his force, he seems to be entrenched to at least level 1, since Hooker's force has the same icon. Hooker would need 12 days to entrench to level 2. It's going to take 7 days to get to Taylor's force, so hopefully he will not have entrenched further. However, sometimes delays randomly occur. The worst case scenario is that Taylor might be entrenched to level 2. Thus, you might expect about 19% of all of your hits will ricochet off the entrenchment to no effect.

[ATTACH]33325[/ATTACH]

By clicking on Hooker's force and pressing the "7" key you get a terrain overlay. If you cursor over Sparta AL you can see that your regular troops (infantry) will only be at 85% effectiveness, your cavalry at 80% and your artillery at 90%. The max range for the battle will be 4 and Hooker can command 22 combat (infantry/cavalry) and 7 support (artillery) elements. All of Taylor's force will be better off.

[ATTACH]33324[/ATTACH]

Now as to Hooker's Corps, Rickets Division is not at full strength and some of his regiments are at about half of their cohesion. A quarter of McArthur's Division are Conscript's that already have lower cohesion. Granger's Division is missing 14 hits. You don't know how strong Taylor's force is. Also, Butler has one Division for your reserve but the CSA has two Divisions in Mobile with McLaws to punish any mistakes you make.

Summary: Hooker may only have 1:1 odds against Taylor. Almost one fifth of Hooker's fire may be lost to Taylor's entrenchments. Hooker 's Corps will be further weakened in the attack by the difficulty of the terrain and is not at 100% to begin with. You don't have good intel on Taylor or McLaws.

Seeing this, would you still attack? Is the problem really about MC?
Attachments
Entrenched.jpg
terrain.jpg
Lesson.jpg
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

bommerrang
Sergeant
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:40 am

Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:48 pm

Gray Fox wrote:As a learning example, let's look at the situation from your point of view.

Taylor's force has at least two Divisions that you can ID. Other CSA Divisions that you can recon more clearly elsewhere on the map have an average of 500+ power. So Taylor might have 1000 power. However, some CSA Divisions have 700+ power, so the worst case scenario is that you may be going to attack at 1:1 odds.

[ATTACH]33323[/ATTACH]

By the icon for his force, he seems to be entrenched to at least level 1, since Hooker's force has the same icon. Hooker would need 12 days to entrench to level 2. It's going to take 7 days to get to Taylor's force, so hopefully he will not have entrenched further. However, sometimes delays randomly occur. The worst case scenario is that Taylor might be entrenched to level 2. Thus, you might expect about 19% of all of your hits will ricochet off the entrenchment to no effect.

[ATTACH]33325[/ATTACH]

By clicking on Hooker's force and pressing the "7" key you get a terrain overlay. If you cursor over Sparta AL you can see that your regular troops (infantry) will only be at 85% effectiveness, your cavalry at 80% and your artillery at 90%. The max range for the battle will be 4 and Hooker can command 22 combat (infantry/cavalry) and 7 support (artillery) elements. All of Taylor's force will be better off.

[ATTACH]33324[/ATTACH]

Now as to Hooker's Corps, Rickets Division is not at full strength and some of his regiments are at about half of their cohesion. A quarter of McArthur's Division are Conscript's that already have lower cohesion. Granger's Division is missing 14 hits. You don't know how strong Taylor's force is. Also, Butler has one Division for your reserve but the CSA has two Divisions in Mobile with McLaws to punish any mistakes you make.

Summary: Hooker may only have 1:1 odds against Taylor. Almost one fifth of Hooker's fire may be lost to Taylor's entrenchments. Hooker 's Corps will be further weakened in the attack by the difficulty of the terrain and is not at 100% to begin with. You don't have good intel on Taylor or McLaws.

Seeing this, would you still attack? Is the problem really about MC?


This is the "refuse to retreat" problem. What you are seeing in this save is after Hooker has lost 2 or 3 times for being frozen and is why he needs to retreat but the game design keeps changing retreat back to attack.,,

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Cardinal Ape
General of the Army
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Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:18 pm

hattrick,

I had to run the turn 5 times in order to see Hooker lose. Once he did lose I had no problem setting him to passive posture with evade orders to walk back home to Pensacola, even in the mud. I suspect that you are not putting your forces into passive posture when conducting retreats.

bommerrang
Sergeant
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Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:40 am

Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:28 pm

thanks for your help Cardinal but we are setting to green/green, etc. and has not worked for 3 turns. But it doesn't matter as Pocus has confirmed it is a design issue. Let's let him fix the problem that myself and Hattrick and many others are having. I'm very surprised about the number of replies on this issue and large number of players who have the identical problem. We were hoping it was just a bug with our installed version.
I'm a beta tester for Matrix World in Flames so I know how design intentions can have unintended results.

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Pocus
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Location: Lyon (France)

Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:37 pm

I'm not too sure what the problem is. After he lost the first battle, he was in defensive without MC. I switched him to passive and he proceeded in retreating toward Pensacola. I would say here that what you got is that you switched him in passive (right, right? ) but he was still targeted by Taylor and engaged.

A force can't be targeted the turn it is sent to retreat from a defeat, but here this is not what has happened. Passive don't let you avoid combat, but it let you avoid being forced to attack even without MC. As for the original thread title, do we have a MC bug? It seems, to my surprise, that we don't have one. You get the minimal 5% MC in a region only if you are cityscape defenders and have no MC. I don't think that right and I'll give these 5% MC to any factions having non passive forces in a region, because the men must be somewhere!
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Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

bommerrang
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Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:45 pm

Pocus - I'm a little confused about your posting. I mean, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Perhaps the saved game is not a good example. We encountered the same problem, not being able to retreat, in two other major battles. One took 4 turns to unfreeze and it only happened with a major loss and retreated. The other 2 are still frozen. All we are saying is that switching to green/green and the defender NOT targeting the stack and not in attack mode will freeze the losing stack and still change status to attack. Other posters have also seen this so there is a problem that must be fixed.
Take a look at what the Captain wrote on the other thread. His suggestion is the correct solution.

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Captain_Orso
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Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:30 am

I ran the turn a couple of times. Both times Hooker's Corps lost the battle, but remained in the region and at the start of the next turn was in DP but Union MC in the region was 0.

If I understand correctly, if they remain in the region and were not forced into retreating to outside the region, they should gain the minimum 5% MC so that they won't auto-change to OP if they remain. That seems to be an issue.

It may be that when Hooker's Corps loses the battle, the Union loses all their MC. Then the retreat rules say that they don't have to retreat from the region and puts them into DP, but then forgets to give them the minimum 5% MC, or however much they should earn during the rest of the turn while they are standing in DP.

--

bommerang, any time an infantry/artillery stack, which is not in Passive Posture (PP) is in a region in which they have <5% MC they will automatically change to Offensive Posture (OP), which causes them to attack any enemy defending units.

As Pocus stated, if you change such a stack to PP, they will not auto-change to OP, and unless the 'defending' stack changes to OP, there will be no battle.

The only thing I can see not working is that Hooker's stack isn't gaining a minimum of 5% MC .
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Pocus
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Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:07 am

Yes, this is a problem that I have fixed. The 'you are assured to get a minimum 5% MC' was not working all the time, since some years even!
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Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

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