Insight into History

[Durk]

I have really been enjoying this game. It has filled a hole in my gaming of history. What a nice study of this horrid time.

[Highlandcharge]

I agree, it led me to read Antony Beevors book on the subject, I didn't realize how much of a testbed the Soviets and Nazi's used the war as...

I am trying to do an AAR of a game with John, the game deserves it

[Erik Springelkamp]

I just finished Antony Beevor as well. Left a bitter taste in my mouth.

Anyway, I started to play the game with the Northern scenario, and to my surprise, by just assembling the forces and attacking towards Bilbao, I got a sudden death victory in May.

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[ERISS]

Antony Beevors book on the subject

Resume of the book (extracts):
More politically adroit handling or more gradual introduction of the reforms by the government might have softened the harsh reactions. But given the left's intense pressure and extreme and unquenchable demands, and the sclerosis of the vested interests on the right, it's doubtful the government could have forged a compromise among the polarized interests.

The Socialist government did compromizes: They promised reforms to please the people, but they made only half of what they were elected for to try to please the Fascists: so, none were alright.

The fact that the anarchists were among the best organized of the dozen or so constituent Republican parties indicates the extent to which the Republicans suffered from disarray. (...)
Many of the Republican parties commanded their own militias, further complicating a centralized military command. They were generally poorly trained and many were sent into battle with shotguns and little or no food, bullets, maps or other supplies. The military structure, increasingly communist-controlled, would only supply communist-led battalions.

At very first, militias had supply, comming from their revolution way: letting people do. But as soon Anarchists let the left-bourgeois parties (the Republicans*) survive, the parties command went only supplying the socialist units and beggin forbidding the democracy born behind anarchist collumns. Following Commies copied and harden the Republican (majority Socialists, by representatives, not by people..) way.

the anarchists were among the (...) constituent Republican parties

Theorically it should be wrong. But as anarchists let people decide that the Republican parties should survive, their CNT main union decided not being a competitor, and agreed sharing of their power to the governement.
People coolness killed the anarchist way. Let's hope for peoples the remembering of the lesson for an at last future true democracy.

The majority of Spaniards resided in the political centre and supported some or all of the Republic's reforms.

It should be said: The majority of in voting parties Spaniards (CNT unionists almost all times advised not to vote).
The bigger 'party' was the 'anarchist' CNT union: the Left had to do with it if they want to be elected, the whole Left (including Center) needed CNT union rare votes to do reforms. Anarchists believe true democracy is the way to go to democracy, voting for some bourgeoisy is a lure. So, the Left was not mistifying people as usual and could not be elected without the neutrality of the CNT.

[ERISS]

Extract of an other book resume:
The vacuum was filled by local committees, loyal to the parties that had created them rather than to the state. The journalist Franz Borkenau reported, ‘All the villages and towns we passed through, though passionately guarding their own territory, had not sent a single man to the front.’ With no regular army at the disposal of the government, the improvised militia columns were likewise loyal to the parties that had formed them.

This writing is about the State parties:
The anarchists of the CNT left their village and saved the hated republic at first: the republicans did not move from their villages to defend their beloved State and Republic!

[ERISS]

Some supporters of the Republic still believe that a victory of the left in Spain would have defeated fascism and saved Europe from the horrors to come.

I don't think so: In Germany 1919, Socialist Party had the power, and they used Nazies-to-be to crush the revolution. A state needs some fascism to survive against freeing people.

Nationalists, on the other hand, argue that the civil war, almost a world war by proxy, was in fact the opening round of the Cold War between western civilisation and Soviet dictatorship.

I agree, but not in their plea meaning: Cold war was used against democracy by both sides, all pleaing saving people from their East/West competitor. CIA is as 'democratic' as KGB.

[Leibst]

I just finished Antony Beevor as well. Left a bitter taste in my mouth.

Anyway, I started to play the game with the Northern scenario, and to my surprise, by just assembling the forces and attacking towards Bilbao, I got a sudden death victory in May.

Let me check this Erik.

[Erik Springelkamp]

Let me check this Erik.

It was not meant as a complaint. The Nationalists won two major battles and got Bilbao. I think reinforcements for Bilbao were diverted by an indecisive spoiling attack from the South. But I was surprised that it would be so straightforward. Two hops and it was over.

(I have the complete saves if you think this is strange)

[Leibst]

No, it is not needed, i've reproduced the game and the same happens to me. It seems that it is so early in the game that taking Bilbao and thus provoking the surrender of the Basque army means a great loss of VP for the reps and as you have much more VP than the reps you get automatic Victory. I'm goint to look for a soluion to fix this.

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

ERISS, my friend, good insight as usual, I think the Anarchist forces are not given enough credit for saving the Republic in 1936. Let me ask, does your knowledge on this subject come from personal involvement, interest, or are the schools in Europe really that much better than the United States?

This war is almost unheard of on this side of the Atlantic except among only the leftists, I wonder if this is the same in Europe?

[Erik Springelkamp]

This war is almost unheard of on this side of the Atlantic except among only the leftists, I wonder if this is the same in Europe?

It is a sad story, that doesn't fit into the victor's tale after the war.

For me the role of the UK, which effectively supported the Nationalists strongly, was a dark revelation.

In the Netherlands we generally only heard about it being the testing ground for German panzer and the Luftwaffe, and the attact on Guernica, and the fellow travellers, a little bit about the Republican infighting, but the international diplomatic picture was never taught clearly to me at school.

[Carnium]

In the Netherlands we generally only heard about it being the testing ground for German panzer and the Luftwaffe, and the attact on Guernica, and the fellow travellers, a little bit about the Republican infighting, but the international diplomatic picture was never taught clearly to me at school.

Still better that what we were taught in the ex-Yugoslavia. The official line was that Spain was first battleground against Nazism and that there the brave communists (no mention about anarchists) from all around the world have joined to stop them. They initially failed, but many got valuable experience that they could use in the forthcoming struggle.

[Ace]

And you never heard anything how Stalin effectively sabotaged the anarchist movement. I guess every side told its side of the story.

[ERISS]

ERISS, good insight as usual,

Beware, don't believe me easily, I even sometimes correct my propaganda when I see I'm too kind with anarchists.

I think the Anarchist forces are not given enough credit for saving the Republic in 1936.

But in a wargame it is not easily simulated. In AGE engine, it is easier to start when mainly anarchists already bring back many military in Republican side, by force (where F.Ascaso died) or truth: Fascist had lied to military troops saying them they revolted to save the Republic (and not their goal to destroy it), but anarchists could directly counter Fascist propaganda in many barracks as they had some sympathizers in the troop. Republicans would only talk to the troops through hierarchy, which was mainly in Fascist side...

Let me ask, does your knowledge on this subject come from personal involvement, interest, or are the schools in Europe really that much better than the United States?

My interest started with reading encyclopedias. I even believe anarchy is the true followers of Les Lumières (when started encyclopedias and rationalism) and liberalism. Nowadays liberalism has since long been corrupted by young bourgeoisy which, against aristocracy & far-Right, had allied with State socialists: the Left was born, in fact a bourgeois party system, now since long a symbiosis of 'liberal' bourgeoisy and State 'socialists'. It is funny that this bourgeoisy, and socialists who helped them, now spit on more corrupted than them who went farther in making liberalism its contrary.
Reading History bring me sometimes in personnal involvement, yes. That's often though.

This war is almost unheard of on this side of the Atlantic except among only the leftists, I wonder if this is the same in Europe?

It's almost the same. This just seems the small (and then too long) war of sneakers men against some small fascist units.

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

Without getting too much into politics, I do want to say again about how history is really written by the victors. I mean, Republican Spain left no descendants in history (ideologically, I mean, not literally). Only a few exiles that went to Latin America managed to continue their political tradition. I'm not saying at all that the Republic was ideal, but it is true that Spain was totally unique in history.

Stalininsm, that survived a while longer. Nazism was of course refuted in the War, but it still survives in some forms and is extremely well known. Capitalist Democracy survives completely, and they write history since they are the victors. But what about Republican Spain? What should we think of this as? They have no legacy, except as an obscure failure of the far Left. Here in California, people are mostly center-left, but among the far-left minority the Republic is seen as a sort of tragic ideal, something that almost worked but never could. Besides this opinion, what could we think of the nonexistent legacy of Republican Spain?

[Ace]

Looking from outside, I feel Spain is very much divided country, so SCW left its scars that can be seen even now.

[caranorn]

Oh the Spanish Repubic sure has a legacy, though maybe it does not range as far as California, it's certainly still alive among western European leftists...

P.S.: Certainly not all aspects, but considering how at least the extreme left is cooperating more these days many aspects are indeed remembered..

[TheDoctorKing]

I was certainly aware of the Republic growing up in America, of course my father knew all those people and was active in the American government's relationship with Franco and with Spanish leftists in the 1960s. But I think that other American leftists know about the Republic. Anti-communist leftists like my dad saw the Republic as a glorious cause that was betrayed by Stalin (and by the French Socialists) but could still serve as a possible model for future evolution of a democratic left. When I was a little kid, I remember my father telling me that July 18th was the "day God died in Spain".

[Durk]

Issues of the American Civil War were still active when I was much younger, though they have faded today (or gone underground). It is fascinating to me to see how raw issues of the Spanish Civil War are still present today. While my connection to the Spanish Civil War are purely literary, the more personal connection reflected in this thread are engaging. Gentlemen all, I am enjoying this discussion.

[ERISS]

Anti-communist leftists like my dad saw the Republic as a glorious cause that was betrayed by Stalin (and by the French Socialists) but could still serve as a possible model for future evolution of a democratic left. When I was a little kid, I remember my father telling me that July 18th was the "day God died in Spain".

Yup, the spanish leftists wanted to destroy the religion despite they often were true believers,
for the Right was (is still?) far more Gold believers than God ones, they were hypocrites capitalist on God belief.
Leftists tried to destroy the temples, which had become house of corrupt priests, merchants of religion.

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

I was certainly aware of the Republic growing up in America, of course my father knew all those people and was active in the American government's relationship with Franco and with Spanish leftists in the 1960s. But I think that other American leftists know about the Republic. Anti-communist leftists like my dad saw the Republic as a glorious cause that was betrayed by Stalin (and by the French Socialists) but could still serve as a possible model for future evolution of a democratic left. When I was a little kid, I remember my father telling me that July 18th was the "day God died in Spain".

Yup, but I imagine that living in Oregon your father was not the only Leftist. This is sort of what I mean, here in northern California the people of the far-left have similar views that the fall of the Republic was tragic. Beyond them, I don't think anyone remembers it. But I suppose the culture is very similar between Oregon and northern California, it is the Pacific Coast.