Goodmongo
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Suicide of Bad Generals

Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:25 pm

So I want to promote a general that has some really good stats to be an army commander. I have two problems. This first is that he has other in from of him with more seniority and it would cost too much NM and VP's to do it. The second is the limited number of army commands. Basically there are two more guys in front of him than sports.

I'm the union and two of the guys are real losers. Their stats and traits are just very bad. So I had a thought. What if I sent these two losers of a general deep into enemy territory with say just a militia unit. Perhaps they will be killed or captured if I did this. Then theoretically that moves the guy I want farther up in seniority and less of an adverse impact if I make an army with him.

Is this a good idea and can it work?

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Captain_Orso
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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:52 pm

They could be killed, but it's very unlikely; only a 2 or 3% chance. They cannot be captured in open combat. They will be wounded if their unit is destroyed and immediately be moved to the closest (in movement costs (rail, river and naval included(1)) friendly city, where they will be locked for a number of turns, and even in their wounded status, block your promotion.

(1) I haven't seen it myself, but I did hear a report of it happening. A Union force invaded at New Orleans, and the commanding army general was wounded. Since they had bypassed the forts in the delta, the leader had no close-by city to be brought to, and was brought back to New York City IIRC.

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:55 pm

What happens if I click the surrender icon that tells the stack to surrender? What happens to the general? I may have to experiment with that one.

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:11 pm

IIRC you can only use surrender with besieged units. I've never used it, so....

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:38 pm

Darn. Another good idea that most likely can't be done. Yet in a single game playing as CSA I had both Forrest and Longstreet killed in battles. But considering how many times I destroyed the AI's single stack with a general and having the general not have a red slash through him my losses were just real bad luck.

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:32 am

You do know what constitutes a siege, right? Anytime your force is inside a location (fort, stockade, city, etc) without any friendly good-order (not in PP) forces outside the location but in the region in which the location is located, and with good-order enemy forces in the region, the forces inside the location are under siege.

I've lost Meade as commander of the AoP to a stupid attack on the fort across from Fisher, and I've lost Grant in '61, which means Sherman never recovers from his depression and leaves the army, ie without Grant he doesn't spawn. Sometimes life sucks. In both these case, the first against AI, the second in PBEM I still won. As they say, it's not over until the fat lady sings.

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:31 pm

No. What's a siege.

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:39 pm

Captain_Orso wrote:I've lost Meade as commander of the AoP to a stupid attack on the fort across from Fisher, and I've lost Grant in '61, which means Sherman never recovers from his depression and leaves the army, ie without Grant he doesn't spawn. Sometimes life sucks. In both these case, the first against AI, the second in PBEM I still won. As they say, it's not over until the fat lady sings.


I did not know that Sherman doesn't spawn if you lose Grant. Never lost him so.....

Good to know. :hat:

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Gray Fox
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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:54 pm

Another option is to win battles with the General you want promoted. His seniority may eventually surpass the two less capable Generals. IIRC, you also get about 3 more available Army commands to assign each year.
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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:30 pm

Key word is eventually. I was trying to find a very quick solution that would take one or at most two turns.

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:02 pm

Goodmongo wrote:No. What's a siege.


I just described in detail when a siege exists.

In Siege Combat, very basically, the offensive artillery value of the besieging forces is compared to the defensive artillery value of the besieged forces. The better the offensive value vs defensive value, the more likely to score a breach, or if already breached, cause the defenders to surrender.

In far more detail: Siege Combat from the AGEod Wiki

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:18 pm

Captain_Orso wrote:
Goodmongo wrote:No. What's a siege.


I just described in detail when a siege exists.

In Siege Combat, very basically, the offensive artillery value of the besieging forces is compared to the defensive artillery value of the besieged forces. The better the offensive value vs defensive value, the more likely to score a breach, or if already breached, cause the defenders to surrender.

In far more detail: Siege Combat from the AGEod Wiki


OK Thank you. I thought a siege was when a fort, castle or town was surrounded and cut off from supplies and the attacking side would wait till they starved to death. Sort of like what Julius Caeser did during the Battle of Alesia.

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:01 pm

Siege doesn't require a fort, but it will likely last longest there. If a location is besieged and it has an unblocked harbor, it can still get supplies through the harbor, and will not likely surrender. As long as every besieged unit has supplies, there is a 90% chance they will not surrender, regardless of how badly they are besieged.

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:06 am

Gray Fox wrote:Another option is to win battles with the General you want promoted. His seniority may eventually surpass the two less capable Generals. IIRC, you also get about 3 more available Army commands to assign each year.


This! Go forth and conquer with the good ones so they can promote and gain seniority. Besides, even the bad union genrals are good at something. Butler and Freemont have loyality boosting traits, so park them in some place that needs martial law. Halleck and MaC can train up those Vols . Banks can go north and recruit.

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:20 pm

Of course to all of those, but those pesky varmints still block promotions.

Sometimes you just have to consider taking the hit, as bad as it is. A few patches ago, it was easy enough to simply give Grant and another Maj.Gen. Corps under Halleck, who was parked in St. Louis. Halleck was far enough away to not instill his poor traits onto Grant & co., but Grant still had a Corps with which he could kick some behind, with some support.

Now, if a corps is outside the command radius of the army, there is an automatic hit to strategic (and other?) ratings :non: , which screws that strategy, might as well keep Halleck within range ... or take the hit. If you are quick with Grant, you can recover the NM hit fairly quickly. It really depends on the exact situation though.

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:01 pm

See here's the problem on the wait and level up a general strategy. In 1862 you have already fought a full year using a bunch of 3-1-1's. Then as 1862 goes by you get some really nice generals. Only problem is you can't make them a Corps leader or an army leader. You first have some rubes that have more seniority ahead of them.

So it might take till mid 1863 to get these guys experience and seniority. My idea and goal was to find a possible loophole around the "gaining experience" which I already knew as it was stated in the manual. I remembered having some generals killed so I had a thought about sending them on suicide missions to get killed. Give them a single sailor unit and land all over the south and proceed to places like Atlanta. They run out of cohesion and the unit would die fast. I was hoping so would the general as this was very far away from your lines and not like they could easily escape.

But alas it is not to be.

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:21 pm

The turn Grant shows up, rail him to Annapolis to be stack commander of a Division containing a Marine and commanded by someone else that you want promoted. Take Fort Clark on the NC coast in an amphibious assault. This has always got me Grant promoted with seniority enough to command one of the Armies in the summer of 1862. This also prevents CSA ironclads from sneaking up the coast when I am operating against VA. The coastal forts are sort of sitting ducks for anyone else you want promoted.
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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:53 am

Goodmongo wrote:8<

Only problem is you can't make them a Corps leader or an army leader.

8<


What are you talking about? There are no restrictions or penalties for making anyone a Corps commander, regardless of seniority. The leader must simply be Maj.Gen. or higher.

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:53 am



Now why didn't I think of that? :wacko:

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:04 pm

Gray Fox wrote:The turn Grant shows up, rail him to Annapolis to be stack commander of a Division containing a Marine and commanded by someone else that you want promoted. Take Fort Clark on the NC coast in an amphibious assault. This has always got me Grant promoted with seniority enough to command one of the Armies in the summer of 1862. This also prevents CSA ironclads from sneaking up the coast when I am operating against VA. The coastal forts are sort of sitting ducks for anyone else you want promoted.


Why a Marine? Unless the South has posted its garrison stack outside the fort, your invasion is automatically successful, and Athena never posts any garrison stacks outside of forts, and nearly all PBEM players won't do it either.

Better would be to give his division lots of 10lb-ers, a Siege Artillery, and his stack an Engineer (0 CP cost) and, if available, a leader with Siege Engineer, but I'm not sure you have any of those leaders available so early in the game.

After initially landing, sit and wait for a breach, and then assault. *BOOM* one friendly fort for the Union. Ofc Grant could die in the process, but he could be killed assaulting some rinky-dink town with a state militia garrison too, so...

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:57 pm

Captain_Orso wrote:
Goodmongo wrote:8<

Only problem is you can't make them a Corps leader or an army leader.

8<


What are you talking about? There are no restrictions or penalties for making anyone a Corps commander, regardless of seniority. The leader must simply be Maj.Gen. or higher.


Maybe because they are one star when they arrive in 1862.

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:08 pm

"Why a Marine?"

Grant's stack is set to Red/Red and Enter the Structure. So they exit the ships and then immediately assault the fort in the same turn. I thought that qualified as an amphibious assault.
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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:04 am

Goodmongo wrote:
Captain_Orso wrote:
Goodmongo wrote:8<

Only problem is you can't make them a Corps leader or an army leader.

8<


What are you talking about? There are no restrictions or penalties for making anyone a Corps commander, regardless of seniority. The leader must simply be Maj.Gen. or higher.


Maybe because they are one star when they arrive in 1862.


Please, give me some examples of good * leaders you get in '62, with lower seniority than 3-1-1 leaders you got in '61.

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Re: Suicide of Bad Generals

Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:12 pm

Gray Fox wrote:"Why a Marine?"

Grant's stack is set to Red/Red and Enter the Structure. So they exit the ships and then immediately assault the fort in the same turn. I thought that qualified as an amphibious assault.


ummm :confused: .... maybe?!? IIRC the Amphibious Invasion penalty is, the defender gets First-Fire the first two rounds of battle,, plus the invader cannot use cannons during this time, or for just the first round, and the attacker cannot retreat.

If you Assault a structure, you immediately go to range 0 (melee). Maybe the battle engine would actually combine those two, but it would be illogical, because the Amphibious penalty is supposed to represent fighting right from landing on shore, which has to be before an assault could take place.

Anyway, except in rare occasions, I'll wait for the breach.

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