Goodmongo
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Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:26 pm

First off apologies if this was already answered. I did read a few threads on promotions but couldn't find an answer to my question

What I would like to know is if giving a general a promotion will actually hurt the stats of the general. Say I have a 5-3-4 one star division commander and he can be promoted to 2 stars. I may still only use him as a division commander but would hate to have lower stats than the 5-3-4. So do general lose stats if promoted?

On the flip side can generals gain stats if promoted? Giving that third star to Longstreet for instance. He'll still be a corps commander. BTW, I know there are NM or VP costs for promoting or giving an army assignment out of line. These aren't the costs I'm interested as the game warns me of those.

Finally, do traits change on promotion?

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pgr
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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:39 pm

I have never lost stats when promoting. However, you can pick up some unfourtnate traits. Off the top of my head, a 3 star Jackson gets a "quickly angers" trait, which is most unfourtnate.

On the whole, promoting leads to good things, but a few leaders have nasty suprises.

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DrPostman
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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:05 am

I know several Union generals lose attributes when promoted. Not sure about stats.

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Captain_Orso
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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:08 am

Yes, but only if it is specifically modeled in the game. It doesn't happen by game rules.

A few examples:

Nathaniel Lyon
* 5-2-2 Bg.Gen. Abilities: Charismatic, Occupier, and Hotheaded
** 5-2-2 Maj.Gen. Abilities: Charismatic, Occupier, and Hotheaded
*** 4-2-2 Lt.Gen. Abilities: Charismatic, Occupier

Joseph Hooker
* 4-4-2 Bg.Gen. Abilities: Good Army Admin
** 4-4-2 Maj.Gen. Abilities: Good Army Admin
*** 4-2-2 Maj.Gen. Abilities: Good Army Admin

Ambrose Burnside
* 3-1-2 Abilities: Militiaman, Recruiting Officer
** 2-2-3 Abilities: none
*** 2-2-3 Lt.Gen. Abilities: Dispirited Leader

Fitzjohn Porter
* 3-1-3
** 2-1-3
*** 2-1-3

and many more...

On the Confederate side:

James Longstreet
* 5-3-6 Abilities: Entrencher
** 5-3-6 Abilities: Entrencher
*** 3-2-6 Abilities: none

Thomas Jackson
* 5-4-4 Abilities: Very Fast Move, Strong Morale, Surpriser
** 5-4-4 Abilities: Fast Move, Strong Morale, Surpriser
*** 5-4-4 Abilities: Fast Move, Strong Morale, Surpriser, Quickly Angered

Edmund K. Smith
* 4-3-2 Abilities: Forager
** 4-3-2 Abilities: Master Logistician
*** 3-2-2 Abilities: Good Pop. Admin, Strategist

and many more...

Of course there are many leaders who gain lots of characteristics and/or abilities when ranking up, like U.S. Grant, William T. Sherman, John F. Reynolds, John C. Breckinridge, and Richard Taylor, to name a few.

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pgr
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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:18 am

And of course, half the fun is the surprise you get when you hit the promote button!

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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:08 pm

ummm... in such cases, my motto is - It's a Game. Players who know the game well, already know which leaders will let you down if you promote them too far *cough*cough*Lyon*--my first big surprise while learning the game :cuit: --*cough*.

*GAHHH!!* :blink: I was about to post a link to the thread with the Generals Lists in PDF format to download, but I see that the the download links are dead; to be found here-> Updated Generals Lists 1.15 Legacy Patch :grr:

Very well then, here for anyone who doesn't have these files already. Free to download. If there are any issues with these links, please PM me.

The lists are not 100% up-to-date. They are based on AACW (CW1), so leaders added in CW2 are not in the lists.
AACW Commanders Confederate 1.15.pdf
AACW Commanders Union 1.15.pdf

Players who have played the game often, have learned most of the things hidden under the hood--mostly leaders and events--and will play accordingly. New players get to--have to--learn 'The Hard Way™'. I think these things should be published for players who wish to play 'the game' and not necessarily the history; just IMHO.

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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:15 pm

So I decided to promote a bunch of CSA generals and UGH was I in for a shock. I really found out the hard way on the 6 guys I promoted. Not a single one got better and 5 of the 6 got worse.

Not just the stats but even the traits got worse or some good ones disappeared. And to compound things it appeared that the promoted generals lose their bonus stats from XP gains.

While it is true that not knowing is part of the game I also found it terrible. So what I will do if I don't read that list is to ignore all promotions on generals that have good stats or traits and only promote those 3-1-1 guys with bad traits. The Peter Principle is in full effect now. :bonk:

Thanks for the link as that will help.

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ArmChairGeneral
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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:22 pm

This is slightly off-topic, but one of the reasons that the Peter Principle is a logical outcome in the real-world (and not just a cynical joke) is that you promote a person who is good at their job into a completely different job (managing other people that do their old job) which they may or may not be good at. I am very good at writing SQL queries and SAS programs, but that doesn't mean I will be good at getting the most out of a group of OTHER analysts.

In-game, I may be a great divisional leader in combat, but those skills don't necessarily translate to managing a Corps or an Army, since that is a different task.

From a role-playing perspective, the degradation could be thought of as reflecting people just getting tired and worn out over time from the mental and moral demands of a seemingly endless and increasingly destructive war. How many boys can you send to their deaths, and how many civilians can you leave without food and shelter before it begins to affect your decision making and leadership? Based on historical documents, this was a common problem for many leaders of the era (of course in all wars, but in the US Civil War it is poignantly well-documented).

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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:39 pm

That's very true, what you said, but most of the human-factor is not really fit into the game. While some (many?) commanders did raise to their level of incompetence--my best example is Burnside--some had 'break-downs', which might not have happened. I don't think one can validly say, Hooker was destined to lose his nerve on his army coming in contact with Lee's, but maybe it is; IDK.

Some leaders were destined to be great, and their qualities were obvious to many at the time, or at least Time-Life-history(1) says this. But on the other hand I think some leaders must have demonstrated their leadership qualities over time for those witnessing it to see.

I've had discussions about how "unknown" leadership might be put into the game, other than the random role-the-dice solutions, but most don't understand the issues on an historical nor a game-play perspective, and I've found myself talking to the wall, so what's the point *sigh*.


(1) Time-Life-history is the trashy, propaganda propagated by such publications. it's vague, populist, and un-nuanced, and often wrong on important point. In Time-Life-history the Union enjoyed a major victory at Antietam.

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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:38 pm

Well promoting from someone doing SQL or coding to a management position is only the first promotion. So your analogy only fits a small part of the possible promotion scenarios. Once you go to say PM, then manager, then senior manager, director, VP these are no longer based on technical knowledge.

You analogy only applies to the first part of going from a doer to someone managing things. Plus there is another reason why those promotions don't happen. If you are really great in your job and have extensive knowledge you become a victim of your expertise. The company wants to keep you in that position because they don't want to "lose" that knowledge that a promotion would usually result in. That's why many actually change jobs for that promotion step.

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Gray Fox
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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:17 pm

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a259133.pdf

During the CW, the two nations' armies grew phenomenally in numbers, but not so much in organizational skill. An army the size of a town or a city or a metropolis needs most of what those urban areas need every day. In addition, the army must be mobile. A leader's ability to "reach out and touch" what needs to get done right now becomes less the case with each promotion. A brigade commander might quick time to a regiment in trouble and save the day. A Corps or Army commander has too much going on to hope to be in the right place at the right time. A military staff system was created and evolved to meet the tasks of getting things done so the commander could lead. However, this was a slow process. Even in 1864, the day of the battle Grant was known to stand under a tree and smoke cigars. So a good Division commander may not become a good Corps or Army commander. But he might just be better than anyone else and someone has to take the bull by the horns.
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Goodmongo
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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:52 pm

Yes that is true. But at the end of the day this is a game and a game that has results predetermined. So after either reading about the promotions or playing a game you know what to expect.

So that means you won't be promoting some great generals because you don't want to lose those stats and traits. Longstreet goes from near god to an above average guy. So we won't do it.

Now what might be interesting is if promotions were out of your control. Once they reached certain criteria they are automatically promoted. Not sure how I would feel about that but it could result in interesting strategies.

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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:39 am

Promotions were not a given in that era. You didn't get promoted, because you had been at your rank for so-n-so long and did your schooling and training, so they gave you a promotion. People were promoted to fulfill the requirements of a position. Often they were simply brevetted; that is, they got to wear the rank, and actually got the pay of a higher rank than they actually held. Brigades were supposed to be lead by Brigadier Generals--which is where the name comes from--but very often they were actually lead by Colonels. Divisions by Maj.Gen.s, Corps by Lt.Gen.

Longstreet and Jackson, under Lee's organization both lead Corps under Lee. Actually, each first lead a 'wing' of Lee's army, because in '62, Lee was not authorized by congress to organize his army into Corps. As always, and on both sided of the war (and still today) all such organizational changes to the structure of the army, had to be approved by Congress. Lee got approval to promote both to Maj.Gen. after the Peninsula Campaign, and then reorganized the army into 'corps', but called them left and right 'wings',until congressional approval was granted, but he was allowed to make informal command assignments. When the Confederate Congress approved the Corps. command structure, the names were simply changed, and they became official, although both Jackson and Longstreet were still Maj.Gen.'s, so they were brevetted until they were officially promoted to Lt.Gen. in early '63. This was a very common practice during the war.

At the General ranks, promotions were very political. Often relations between generals and politicians played a huge role, and often other generals were dragged along by higher ranking Generals. Everybody did it. Lee threw out Holmes and some other division commanders--he actually promoted them out of his theater to some backwater parts of the war, and dragged Longstreet and Jackson along on his coat-tails. McClellan did it. Hooker did it. Grant did it.

The game uses seniority and a leader's political influence trait to represent the political costs to the president were he to press an out-of-seniority promotion through.

Maybe a couple of things might be changed though. Maybe if a leader became promotable, but his seniority would cause a political ruckus (NM and VP looses), instead the player could choose to advance his seniority by a huge amount. Currently if you don't promote a leader, after the timer runs out, he goes up 2 or 4 points in seniority, but maybe it ought to be more.

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Gray Fox
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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:49 pm

"So that means you won't be promoting some great generals because you don't want to lose those stats and traits. Longstreet goes from near god to an above average guy. So we won't do it."

Or that means you do promote him and play the hand you're dealt. In another game, football, you don't take points off of your scoreboard willfully. So don't give up NM/VPs promoting less senior Generals. You're going to need Corps and Army commanders. Everything works, if you let it.
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Goodmongo
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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:24 pm

Not promoting a general because you know he gets worse is no different than many other things you learn from the game. How is it OK to pre-position some troops of ships because you KNOW the AI will do X vs it not OK to not promote?

For example many people playing CSA buys a few conscript units because they have Cooper (I think that's his name) for a few turns and will train them to line units. You're taking advantage of what you know will happen. So it's not consistent to claim its OK to make some decisions based on our knowledge of the game and not other decisions.

For argument sake let's say some obscure 3-0-0 general with a bad trait turn into a 6-6-6 army general with genius traits after two promotions. Now if you didn't know this the chance for you to even use the guy is slim. There are many 3-1-1's with no bad traits that you would select over him. So the odds he gets the XP to get promoted are slim to none. But because you know he will be great you force use him and willingly pay the costs in VP's and NM to promote him.

If we really should not do these choices then the only way the game should be played is with random generals so you have no clue how good they are or what their promotions will bring each and every game.

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Gray Fox
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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:34 pm

When Cooper shows up, you should find out his abilities and take advantage of them. Rail in some units for him to train. That's "playing the hand you're dealt". Not promoting someone so that he is a stumbling block for any other promotions is quite dubious. The CSA player is already the underdog. That's not advice I would give. However, let us know how it works for you.
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

Goodmongo
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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:10 pm

How it works for me is to not promote if the results are worse. I'm playing the hand that I know what is right and what decisions make it worse. As you said the CSA is already the underdog so why make things worse.

A purist should use random generals.

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pgr
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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:09 am

I wonder how hard it would be to create a "hidden leadership" setting. (Like hidden activation) . All leaders start as showing as 3-1-1, but they need to fight a battle as a division, stack, or army commander for their true stats to appear. That kind of setting with leader randomization would truly make the player find good leaders through trial and error.

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ArmChairGeneral
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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:42 am

Goodmongo, I know that your point was that you should play using the knowledge you have and make decisions accordingly, and I generally agree with that and avoid promoting generals that I know will get worse. But in any case where I would have to lose NM to promote around him, I find it more advantageous to accept the stat loss.

On a side note, random generals almost always favors the Union, often decisively. One of the CSA's primary advantages is their early leadership quality, which is very likely to be negated as now Jackson and Longstreet may or may not be good, and who else do you have to command your Corps? The Union has a larger volume of leaders at every rank, so it is likely that at least some early 2 and 3 star generals can be substantially more active than the 2 STRAT campers the Union is normally saddled with.

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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:05 pm

I admit I have never played with random leaders. Heck, I've only actually finished two campaign games so far. But I thought random meant that the same perc4entages and types show up except for different guys. So there is a Longstreet except it might be one of the 3-1-1's in the pool.

Otherwise I agree totally that this would screw over the CSA too much.

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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:37 pm

Random stats on leaders is simply crap. I tried it once, but never again. A 0-0-6 leader, or a 6-0-0 leader (I saw both, IIRC) are just ridiculous.

Aside from how ludicrous the results are, it can easily make the game completely unplayable thru random luck. Imagine the Union gets McDowell as 6-5-5 and the Confederacy gets Beauregard and Johnson as 3-0-0 and 4-0-0. The game will be over in '61 without the Union player having to put a great amount of effort into the game.

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Re: Promotions Can They Change Stats or Traits?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:24 pm

Thanks for the tip on how random generals work. I'll definitely stay away from that option.

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