breunorgamer
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Still Having Problems with VP's

Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:38 am

I'm having trouble figuring out the VP system. I read the Wiki article but it doesn't seem to be matching my game experience.

I'm trying the Western Scenario. I played with the Union, and was what looked like winning big time - but I could never seem to get more victory points than the Confederates; I started with 24 a turn, and they start with 33 a turn. I carved out a large part of the South but never could catch up on VP's/turn.

Btw, I'm using all default options.

I then tried the Confederates, figuring I could just hold on and win. But by the 4th turn they (US) were getting more VP than I per turn even though I was doing well in the war.

I was frustrated enough to try this real slow. I checked the victory regions by hitting the 3 key. I got it right, both players start with 17 victory regions .

The US stats with Dubuque, Des Moines, Council Buffs, Chicago, Cincinnati, Columbus, Indianapolis, Springfield Il, Leavenworth, Lexington, Louisville, Cairo, St Louis, Springfield Mo, Bowling Green, Nashville, and Sacramento.

The Confederates get El Paso, Houston, Galveston, Dallas, Fayetteville, Little Rock, Madison, Baton Rouge, New Orleans, Jackson, Memphis, Corinth, Mobile, Montgomery, Chattanooga, and Vicksburg.

When I hit F9, it says the Union gets 24 VP/s turn and the confederates get 33/turn. We both start with 50 so I have to get VP's either from taking these cities or other means.

On the first turn, I was pretty passive (really bad weather all around). We had two battles, I won both of them. Grant defeated Beauregard and Curtis defeated Van Dorn. The only are that changed control was that the Confederates took Fort Stanton.

I went to look at victory points. I now get 28 per turn (Ok that's good) but the CSA now gets 41/turn. What is happening? How can I determine how to win this game? I did notice that Tuscon was added to objectives – is Tuscon worth 8 VP's/turn?

It says Changes per turn (from objectives) 28.

In looking at the victory point tool-tip, it say 'changes from structure loss and capture (-6). Did I lose 6 VP's for Fort Stanton?

It then says 'Changes from objectives under control' 27. So I do have 99 VP's (I guess 50 to start plus 28 + 27 -6). I'm puzzled that the CSA also has only 99 – I'm guessing they played a card that cost VP's.

My 28 and 27 points speak to objectives. Are VP's only for the objectives listed on the F9 screen, or do they count the cities highlighted when I hit the 3 key?

Anyway, if anyone can help me out it would be good. Winning an instant victory by national morale is not realistic in this scenario, so I'd like to figure out the VP's.

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Captain_Orso
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:56 pm

You're never going to figure out why the South is gaining so many VP's without looking at the South's region list. This might seem a bit provocative, or like cheating, but it depends on what you do with it. I don't think it's cheating to see a list of where your enemy is gaining VP's; YMMV. Simply load the Confederate side of the game, hit <F8> to open the 'region list', click on the star over the far right column to sort by VP's granted per region, and look at which locations are giving the South VP's. If you don't want to be tempted to "cheat" by seeing any Units, simply scroll the map quickly to over the Atlantic where you cannot see any.

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Gray Fox
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:43 pm

IIRC, it's the objectives for the Western Campaign that give VP's. Those few city regions are what you have to take and hold. You also don't get VP's for regions where you have 50% MC or less. I don't have access to the game at work, so someone might check this.

P.S.:

http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/index.php? ... ction=edit

"Critical regions for awarding [[Victory points]] in the game."
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breunorgamer
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:34 am

Thanks Captain Orso and Grey Fox.

Captain Orso, I had done what you suggested; the only new objective on turn 2 for the Confederates that wasn't there on turn 1 is Tucson; is Tucson worth 8 points?

For me (USA), there are no new objectives - do the objectives have more victory points on different turns? Why do I get 28 a turn on turn 2 and 24 a turn on turn 1?

Grey Fox, then I guess there are no victory points for the 17 cities for each side that are highlighted when I hit 3? (If that is true, can maybe one of the designers say why they are highlighted when I hit 3?) Or does that link show the victory points from critical cities, but there can be another part of the code that gives VP's for other cities/regions?

I lost another fort on turn 2; again I had a -6 from areas lost. so I think the game is saying each fort is worth -6. Will I get this back if I retake the forts? This is important. In my sfirst game I took all buyt 4 objectives, but I did lose forts to small Confederate forces, maybe I need to pay mroe attn=ention to them. but it is hard to make the choice without knowing how the VP's work.

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Gray Fox
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:53 pm

I checked and the math is not making any sense. I start with 3 objectives that each give 20 VPs, but I only get a total of 24 VPs per turn for holding these. I also lost 6 VPs the first turn, even though no battles happened and no structures were lost. So the VP system does not appear to be working in this scenario as described.

Okay, it seems that objective cities affect National Morale when taken, so the VPs only come from holding certain cities, winning battles and taking structures. IIRC, battle losses accrue VPs as well. I normally play for the NM victory and I don't worry about VPs. However, in this scenario VPs are the main determinant for overall victory level. It's gamey, as you could concentrate on taking stockades, wiping out small CSA units and minimizing your own losses of these.
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Captain_Orso
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:31 pm

Hi GF :wavey:

I'm gonna have to disagree again :siffle:

Gray Fox wrote:IIRC, it's the objectives for the Western Campaign that give VP's. Those few city regions are what you have to take and hold. You also don't get VP's for regions where you have 50% MC or less. I don't have access to the game at work, so someone might check this.

P.S.:

http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/index.php? ... ction=edit

"Critical regions for awarding [[Victory points]] in the game."


You must to control the location in a region, generally a city, to gain NM and VP's for the region. For example, as the South you could besiege Washington DC and have well over 50% MC in the region, but as long as the Union holds the city, the Union player gets the VP's and loses no NM.

I wrote about this recently here: Crossed rilfes in Objective screen? Post #4

I learned about this when I bum-rushed Louisville, KY and left a Militia unit sitting in the region to slowly gain some entrenchments for my main force to jump into, if need be, while they marched off Lexington. I had exactly 50% Loyalty in Louisville, and I noticed in the objectives list that Louisville had the Crossed Rifles - Contested Control icon. That's when I read up on location control in the Wiki....... the .... Wiki :crying: ....... :pleure:

breunorgamer
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:00 pm

Thanks again!

Grey Fox, I'm the one who started the 'Crossed Rifles' thread, this is really a bit of a continuation. :)

This is what I'm GUESSING is going on after taking all of the evidence so far, but let's remember a few points:

First, there were only 2 battles, and I won both of them. therefore, I cannot be losing VP's for lost battles.

Second, although winning battles and capturing forts may give or lose VP's, they should not be changing the VP's/turn score which is the main source of my inquiry

Third, for each of the first two turns, I lost 6 VP's and I also lost one fort


My VP's went from 24/turn to 28/turn although I captured no strategic objective, or any city/region which flashes on the 3 key. My guess is that I garrisoned some town which I controlled but didn't have military control, or maybe more than one

The Confederates went from 33 VP's turn to 41 VP's/turn. Tucson appeared as a victory city (after the event that the CSA recognizes Arizona.) My guess here is that Tucson is worth some good amount (5?) and that they got another 3/turn from garrisoning some city, or some combination that adds to 8 about the value of Tucson and garrisons.

The Wiki is wrong and forts are worth 6 VP's, at least for the Western Scenario.

When I get a chance I can look across the 17 victory cities in the scenario and see which ones I don't have military control at start to try to confirm.

I'm not sure if there is anything else going on. like the value of cities changing, or if taking territory that isn't' lit up on hi :) tting 3 matters?

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Gray Fox
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:30 pm

Something else is going on. The VP menu at the top tells me I started with 50, gained 27, lost 10 and 6, but somehow then have 95 total. No battles were fought.
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Captain_Orso
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:18 pm

There are a bunch of RGD's which cost or earn VP's.

Earn:
Open Trail: 1
Roads: 3
Create Telegraph: 5
Develop Territory: 5

Cost:
Disassemble Industry: 5
Suspend Habeas Corpus: 3
Scorched Earth: 5
Partisans: 5
Muster Unionists: 5
Muster Copperheads: 5
Draft: 15
Requisitions: 1
Plunder: 5

These might be what is affecting totals. Maybe they're not all being counted, but IDK.

breunorgamer
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:02 pm

Captain Orso,

These RGD's impacted my first game (which I mentioned in crossed rifles) but at least for my totals in the new game first two turns, I played no RGD's. Moreover, they don't impact VP's/turn which is my main source of contention. They wouldn't get the Confederate total from 33/turn to 41/turn.

I checked the logs at the bottom right of the screen and it didn't seem like RGD's wre an impact on these two turns.

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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:54 pm

Yeah, but if you are playing the Union and trying to monitor the Confederacy, you certainly won't get a message for every RGD the CS AI plays.

It does seem like something is greatly amiss. Maybe something like Matagorda. I don't recall the details, but if the South holds certain location around Matagorda, he gets some income from across the boarder trade, and maybe VP's. I don't recall the details, but 11 VP's per turn difference between what is in the regions list and what is reported is A LOT.

breunorgamer
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:07 pm

I've spent quite a bit of time on this. I can confirm that (Western Scenario):

The computer is cheating on victory points. :crying:

We can see the points per region (per turn) from hitting F8 (regional census) and sorting on the last column, which is victory points.

For the Confederacy, at the start, 4 points are given for Memphis, Vicksburg, Mobile, New Orleans, and Little Rock. Chattanooga is worth 3. 10 other locations that are shown when '3' is hit are worth 1 each. That should be 33. When the Arizona special event comes then Tucson is worth 1.


The USA starts with 28. Louisville, Nashville, and St. Louis with 4 each and Cairo worth 3; they have 13 one point regions worth 13.


However, in my current game as the CSA the union is getting 32. I quit, and reloaded as the union and I am indeed getting 32 so it is now cheating in my favor. I checked again with F8 and I should indeed be getting only 28.

It also works the other way. If you pay the union, the CSA starts to get 41 points/turn when they should be 33.


This extra points makes playing the CSA pretty much impossible. After a few turns the CSA and USA get the same points/turn; that is with starting cities. It is very hard to hold on to everything.


Playing the union is possible but at 41 points/turn, you need to take 2 major cities to equalize, and you have to do it fast enough to catch up on points. This is doable (but not easy at least for me).


I can see the change to the CSA total being a game adjustment for balance, but playing the CSA, the extra union points seem crazy.


Can somebody explain what is going on? Is this an intentional point total change for balance or is it just a bug?



If it is intentional, is this also happening in other scenarios?

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Gray Fox
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:43 pm

Perhaps the difficulty setting affects VPs? I almost always play for the NM victory, so I can't say for sure.
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breunorgamer
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:04 pm

Makes sense. I'm playing on default which is a pretty low level I think. But I think it is the only explanation for why the computer generates a lot more VP's regardless of which side you play. Does anybody know the answer to this?


The whole issue is based on a fundamental set of related questions - are the scenarios designed to be competitive, and simpler than the campaign game? Or is the game design that the entire war scenario is the 'real' game and the scenarios are there really to get you used to playing aspects of the game?

For me, these lead to a practical question: Do I wait to make sure I can win the scenarios before moving on to the campaign? Or even should playing this kind of scenario be competitive on its own? Or did the designers really not care abut the victory conditions? I would think the one year campaign games should be 'fun' games on their own. So I don't know if I'm not winning because I'm playing badly and should get better in s simpler scenario, or if the design didn't worry about VP's and so I shouldn't wait to be able to win on victory points? It appears that people playing the campaign game never worry about VP's and worry only about NM.

If the designers didn't care about the victory conditions, then it is hard to use the game for gauging my progress. For instance, the AI likes to make small forces and capture forts in the rear areas, and these cost VP's if I lose them. If the game isn't calibrated to be competitive, how do I know if I'm really supposed to be opposing them? It appears campaign players only go for the NM cities and wouldn't worry about these, but is that the right way to play this scenario?

Thanks for everypne's input.

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Gray Fox
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:57 pm

Whatever you play, it should of course be fun. I once played in a chess tournament with our German allied unit. They had the draft, so the fellow I played was rated in the 2000s. I of course got shredded, but I will never forget that game! Each time you play, set your own goals and learn as much as you can. Give a campaign a try and see what you find out. You can also try PbeM to learn a lot. I believe that everyone here is a gentleman and a scholar. Good luck!
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

breunorgamer
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:56 am

Well happy to report that I won my last game big time; but I had fundamentally misunderstood a part of the scoring mechanism. Specifically, you get a LOT of VP's from battles . I had mixed up the VP's from winning a battle with the NM impact! So I thought you basically got 1 VP from winning a big battle, but you can really get a lot and they can mean more than holding cities (as they probably should).

So actually I think the VP mechanism IS doing what it is supposed to; as the Union you should try to stop the CFA from taking your forts in Missouri and Kansas; you have to fight on all fronts; and you have to trade off the side theaters with the combat between Grant and Johnston. these trade-offs make for a terrific set of hard choices.

The smaller scenario apparently (1862 Western theater) is apparently working as it is supposed to. After losses my first two times, I won by 500 points in my third. I don't think that will happen every time, I think I may still lose but I have clearly gotten better. (I think winning the key battles can snowball.)

I'll try the scenario as the CSA. I'm still not sure it is winnable, but maybe as it should be - hard to see any realistic way the CSA would win this campaign. anyway I'll try it soon.

But I want to give a shout out to the game designers, developers, and associated team; this was a wonderful game and experience! :) And I also want to thank the people of this forum, my skill increase largely came from understanding your pointers.

On top of all of this, it is fun!

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Gray Fox
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:45 pm

Congrats on a job well done!
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

breunorgamer
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:03 am

Well I was wrong again, I had a big victory as the Confederates. I think beating a human as the confederates in this scenario is very hard, but I can beat the AI (at least on Sergeant. Later will try a higher level).

breunorgamer
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Re: Still Having Problems with VP's

Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:20 pm

Thanks everyone, very helpful. I haven't had a chance to play much recently but looking forward to getting back soon!

I'll be trying new scenarios (i bought Bloody Roads South) so there will likely be more wuestions, you are really a tremendous help to (players like) me!

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