Glitch
Conscript
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:50 pm

Use of artillery

Thu May 31, 2018 4:56 am

So,

As the union I've been rolling corps with 1 division of artillery, but I have been neglecting artillery in my infantry divisions? Is this a mistake? I have been doing this for two reasons: 1) not enough artillery do roll a full artillery division and provide artillery in my infantry divisions; and 2) artillery frontage may inhibit my artillery division from maximizing cohesion hits.

Thoughts?

User avatar
ArmChairGeneral
AGEod Grognard
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Re: Use of artillery

Thu May 31, 2018 5:38 am

Divisions with only combat elements (no arty) outperform those with support elements (arty). As long as you have plenty of arty in the frontage (from your artillery division) your combat divisions are better off without arty integrated into them if you can help it (you usually can't, stupid 6 lbers!).

User avatar
Gray Fox
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1477
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:48 pm
Location: Englewood, OH

Re: Use of artillery

Thu May 31, 2018 4:02 pm

For the best results, an artillery Division should have one of your better Generals and be in a stack with one of your best Army/Corps commanders along with a General who has the artillery specialist ability. As such not every stack needs an artillery Division. If you try to even out your artillery among your stacks, then all of your stacks will be weak. The reason for an artillery Division is to mass your big guns at the point of decision. Organize your Army into a high/low mix. Divisions destined to hold the line in entrenched positions can make do with the brigades containing 6-lbers. Stacks with these don't need an artillery Division. Your elite force should be an Army with infantry Divisions containing line infantry with a sharpshooter, one high cohesion brigade and a marine/sailor, supported by the artillery Division. You'll want as many elements in one stack as your commander can lead in battle. So don't have three stacks each with an artillery Division if only one artillery Division will max the frontage. You can estimate this by clicking on a stack and then pressing the "7" key. This brings up the terrain overlay. Cursor over the region where you plan to attack with that stack and you get a menu of how many combat/support elements can fight there. Your commander's abilities also affect this number. You want your attack force to have the most firepower so you can do the greatest damage. Good luck!
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

lightbrave
Lieutenant
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:39 am
Location: Jackson, Georgia

Re: Use of artillery

Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:55 am

Well I am just all confused then. In CSA points to know it says a well rounded division is 2 cavalry, 4 artillery, 1 sharpshooter, 10 infantry and a leader. Iv been trying to form all my divisions as such. I am actually the opponent of the guy who posted the question. Do the same rules apply when your on the defensive or is this formation best for an offensive only?

User avatar
Gray Fox
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1477
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:48 pm
Location: Englewood, OH

Re: Use of artillery

Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:27 pm

The formation I posted is for the offensive. I prefer to put all the best tips together in one stack at the point of the spear. It's also easier for the Union to make Divisions without 6-lbers due to the ability of McClellan/Sigel/Halleck to train up militia to line infantry.

The philosophy of "a little bit of each" in a Division is a hold over from the AACW game forum. The reason for it was that 4 artillery loose cost 4 CP's, so why not put them in the Division with some infantry and a dash of cav for the same 4 CP's. This didn't take into account frontage for artillery (support) that might be filled out with brigade 6 lbers randomly pushing out any heavy guns. Also, in AACW the 6 lbers upgraded to 12 lbers, which is no longer the case. Now, four "mixed" Divisions in a stack pretty much means that the artillery support is going to be 6 lbers. If these are entrenched in a defensive position, then they get a "to hit" bonus and you get the most out of them. Of course, you can play the game and never worry about any of this. However, the artillery Division simulates actual artillery brigades/battalions used by both sides. In RL, armies since Napoleon had massed artillery at the point of decision.
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

User avatar
Ace
Posts: 3498
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:33 pm
Location: Croatia

Re: Use of artillery

Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:33 pm

Speaking of, why do brigades contain cav and art regiments in the first place. I thought artillery was handled at divisional level and cav was also not under brigade commander control?

User avatar
Gray Fox
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1477
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:48 pm
Location: Englewood, OH

Re: Use of artillery

Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:43 pm

The large TN and VA brigades are a plus in 1861 before Divisions can be formed. Granted, this is not of much use. I usually use loose cav for recon/counter recon, so brigades with cav are still useful in Divisions to give a stack some pursuit/screening capability. You can't get away from the embedded 6 lbers easily, so at least if they are entrenched they can hit something. The mixed brigades don't have a lot of fans, though.

I did find this:

http://essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/ ... ation.html

"At the outset of hostilities, it was not uncommon to see a brigade that consisted of infantry regiments and cavalry regiments."

and...

"Both sides organized their batteries into groups of two or more batteries called brigades by the Union and battalions by the Confederates. These units would be ideally commanded by colonels or lieutenant colonels but majors, captains and even lieutenants could sometimes be found at their helms.

Despite having their own organization, brigades and battalions were often connected to an infantry regiment or brigade with the commanding officer of that infantry unit having authority over the artillery commanding officer. The batteries or battalions grouped as “reserve” artillery, reported directly to their army’s chief of artillery, usually a brigadier general."

Finally, this is always a good reference for Union artillery:

https://www.c-span.org/video/?320927-1/ ... -artillery
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

User avatar
ArmChairGeneral
AGEod Grognard
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Re: Use of artillery

Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:05 am

lightbrave wrote:Well I am just all confused then. In CSA points to know it says a well rounded division is 2 cavalry, 4 artillery, 1 sharpshooter, 10 infantry and a leader. Iv been trying to form all my divisions as such. I am actually the opponent of the guy who posted the question. Do the same rules apply when your on the defensive or is this formation best for an offensive only?


The short version is that that is a good setup if you do not have an arty division in the stack. The artillery division was discovered (by Gray Fox, IIRC) long after the game was published, and the setup you refer to was the old conventional wisdom. It still applies when, for whatever reason, you do not have an arty div to work with.

If you do have an arty division, and setting aside how you want to deploy your cavalry, a division with more line infantry can deal more damage and take more hits (hearts) than one that has artillery taking up combat slots. You will almost never be able to get a division with 17 line infantry in it (easier as the Union) due to all the mixed brigades, but a theoretically best stack will have an arty division, enough other arty to fill out the frontage mixed as evenly as possible into the other divisions (or even better left loose in the stack if you have CPs to spare), and as many combat units as you can cram into the non-arty divisions. Sharpshooters are a little weak but give other benefits to their division, so it is always nice to have one, (no more than one) but are not strictly necessary.

Cav have a bunch of weird properties in and out of combat and are worthy of a separate discussion, but are considered combat elements like infantry, rather than support elements like arty. In Corps scale battles they are safer mixed in with infantry than in an all-cav division, but are (mostly) not as good as infantry, element-for-element, so tend to water down a division's combat performance if there are too many in a single division.

I try to get at least 13 line infantry in each tip-of-the-spear division (assuming there is an arty div available) but "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want" as the man once said.

User avatar
Captain_Orso
Posts: 5766
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:02 pm
Location: Stuttgart, Germany

Re: Use of artillery

Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:45 am

Ace wrote:Speaking of, why do brigades contain cav and art regiments in the first place. I thought artillery was handled at divisional level and cav was also not under brigade commander control?


Historically in the US brigades were the largest units in the military; armies being organizations and not units. Thus they were setup to be more or less self-sufficient, with their own artillery and cavalry. When the military adopted divisional units, it did not immediately drop the brigade as a unit, and thus brigades were still the units created by both the regular military as well as the volunteer military (actually two completely independent organizations), and divisions were created by army commanders.

Glitch
Conscript
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:50 pm

Re: Use of artillery

Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:09 am

Thanks all!

Return to “Civil War II”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests