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Straight Arrow
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A Case for Using Only Pea Shooters

Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:23 am

Looking for a bear, fox, ape or any of the other brilliant Narnian refugees that populate this forum.

I'm a big fan of Gray Fox and his case for Artillery divisions. But, while messing around in EAW's Terrain Overlay, I noticed there might be a case for just using pea shooters when operating in mountain areas.

Why? The range in a mountain area is not the normal 99, as in all other areas, but rather a tiny 4.

I gather that this severely reduce the number of times guns fire before the melee phase, thus making medium and heavy artillery in the support line almost useless.

Is this the case?

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DrPostman
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Re: A Case for Using Only Pea Shooters

Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:39 pm

A division of only 12 pounders? Not fond of the notion. :confused:

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pgr
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Re: A Case for Using Only Pea Shooters

Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:07 pm

Do you mean 6lbs as pea shooters? Having bigger, rifled guns in arty divisions isn't really a question of range for me. The first round of battle is the only one where range really matters, every other round starts at range 1. The bigger issue is that larger guns have better base stats = better hit chance. Plus, I believe the big guns can inflict 2 hits of damage per hit.

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Gray Fox
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Re: A Case for Using Only Pea Shooters

Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:30 pm

So called "mountain" Divisions traditionally have mortars or howitzers of lighter calibers so they can fire over intervening elevation. These also have lots of sure-footed mules to move the lighter guns instead of horses. The game doesn't really reflect this and a Division of 20 lbers can keep up as well as "pop guns". However, the Artillery Division should not be wasted in poor terrain. Put your best troops together under your best leader with supplies and good intel, then attack at the place of your choosing in terrain to your advantage.

I'm a big fan of Straight Arrows' Points to Know.
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Pocus
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Re: A Case for Using Only Pea Shooters

Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:31 am

Although the range decreases by one each subphase until it fluctuates between 1 and 0, so you can fire several time with a high range.

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Captain_Orso
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Re: A Case for Using Only Pea Shooters

Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:58 am

I think Frontage is one of the most confusing thing in the game, bc it is not apparent, and not intuitive. It is however logical.

The first aspect of frontage is that it's like a yardstick; a ruler 3 feet long. Now, don't start assuming this is how much room you have to put your troops in, bc it's not. Depending on the terrain, you can only deploy into so many inches of the yardstick. In clear terrain with clear weather you might be able to use the entire yardstick. But the more restrictive the terrain--starting with hills and forest, and ending with swamps and mountains--the less of the yardstick you can use.

But that is only the first aspect. You don't get to simply put one element per inch, oh no. Depending on terrain and weather, some elements require more than an inch, and some far less, which means within the constraints of how wide your frontage-width is (eg a hypothetical 24 inches) heavy artillery might take up 1.5 inches per battery/element, while 6lb artillery might only take up 0.75. This again will vary per terrain and weather, but the principle is, the lighter and more maneuverable the element, the less room within the frontage-width it will take up.

So in mountains, with a very restrictive frontage-width, each heavy artillery battery will take up more of the width, than light artillery, thus allowing for far fewer batteries within the frontage, while the light artillery will take up far less of the width per battery, which allows for far more light artillery batteries within the width.

This is why light artillery is more advantageous in poor terrain.

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pgr
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Re: A Case for Using Only Pea Shooters

Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:40 am

Does ingame light arty have a smaller frontage quota than other types?

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Gray Fox
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Re: A Case for Using Only Pea Shooters

Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:58 pm

I just checked and all artillery have a frontage in open terrain of 4 and in closed of 10, even coastal batteries, except horse artillery which have 2 and 9.
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Straight Arrow
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Re: A Case for Using Only Pea Shooters

Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:15 am

When placing the mouse arrow over an area and pressing 7, the text at the bottom of the tool tip states:

Frontage Width (in points)
Line O:48 – D:48 Support O:48 – D:48

Does this mean that up to a total of 48 line units and 48 support units can be counted in a battle?
Or does it mean that a frontage length of 48 is possible in both the front and rear lines?

If it the latter, which I think is the case, how does one find how many points of frontage a unit uses?

Also, does weather affect frontage as well as range?

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pgr
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Re: A Case for Using Only Pea Shooters

Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:42 pm

Straight Arrow wrote:When placing the mouse arrow over an area and pressing 7, the text at the bottom of the tool tip states:

Frontage Width (in points)
Line O:48 – D:48 Support O:48 – D:48

Does this mean that up to a total of 48 line units and 48 support units can be counted in a battle?
Or does it mean that a frontage length of 48 is possible in both the front and rear lines?

If it the latter, which I think is the case, how does one find how many points of frontage a unit uses?

Also, does weather affect frontage as well as range?


So the frontage width is the total frontage value for the terrain type. It does not change (although in "open" terrain a commander's offensive/defensive rating plus rank can provide a bonus that ups the quota). Each unit type has a base frontage quota. All infantry is 4, for example (cav is 2 etc). So with normal weather, a 48 frontage would allow for 12 infantry elements. (To find out the element frontage quota, look at the element info (combat information...or mobility...cant remember)
Now bad weather, the element quotas go up. If you look at the terrain data files, you can see how the quota changes per unit type for mud, harsh weather etc. The weather effects can be dramatic, harsh weather in woods ups the quota for a cavalry element from 2 to 12 for example.


Feel free to check out the wiki on frontage: http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/index.php? ... ction=edit

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Captain_Orso
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Re: A Case for Using Only Pea Shooters

Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:17 pm

Firstly, I believe I had let myself be fooled by the notion that light artillery could be deployed better in poor terrain than heavier. After looking for support of this notion, I can find none. All I've really been able to find is what GF stated, that ALL artillery, with the exception of Horse Artillery, use the Wheeled movement rate. The only real difference I can find between 6-lb-er's and Siege Artillery is their 'Move Ratio' in the model files, which appears to be a coefficient. The former has 100 and the latter 70, which explains, why Siege Artillery is so slow compared to other Artillery.

Next, to help understand Frontage I believe one really must look at the Terrain tables in the database files: CW2 Excel Database. These consist of Excel files which can easily be viewed using OpenOffice Calc, or MS Excel if you're Bill Gates of course :siffle:

pgr wrote:
Straight Arrow wrote:When placing the mouse arrow over an area and pressing 7, the text at the bottom of the tool tip states:

Frontage Width (in points)
Line O:48 – D:48 Support O:48 – D:48

Does this mean that up to a total of 48 line units and 48 support units can be counted in a battle?
Or does it mean that a frontage length of 48 is possible in both the front and rear lines?

If it the latter, which I think is the case, how does one find how many points of frontage a unit uses?

Also, does weather affect frontage as well as range?


So the frontage width is the total frontage value for the terrain type. It does not change (although in "open" terrain a commander's offensive/defensive rating plus rank can provide a bonus that ups the quota).


As we used to say in my company, "just to f*ck with the Russians"... each terrain type has its own table for each Weather type: Fair, Mud, Snow, Harsh Weather, and Very Harsh Weather, with a set of coefficient tables for each range plus a difference between Offensive and Defensive posture, so we are playing 3-dimensional chess here :blink:

pgr wrote:Each unit type has a base frontage quota.


NO - the Quotas are the 4 base Frontage values, one for each Offensive and Defensive, and Combat Units and Support Units (Artillery, Supply, Engineers, etc.).

Each Terrain type has it's own set of Quota usage per Movement Type: Ranger, Light Foot, Medium Foot, Heavy Foot, Light Horse, Medium Horse, Heavy Horse, and Wheeled.

This is where the major difference between regular Artillery and Horse Artillery comes into play. Regular Artillery all use the Wheeled Movement Type, while Horse Artillery uses Medium Horse.

In Clear Terrain with Fair Weather the Quota Usage for Wheeled is 4, while for Medium Horse it is 2, so--if you had that many--you could put twice as many Horse Artillery Batteries into the Frontage in one battle round as normal Field Artillery.

pgr wrote:All infantry is 4, for example (cav is 2 etc). So with normal weather, a 48 frontage would allow for 12 infantry elements.


Light Foot: Bushwhackers, Partisans, Skirmishers, and Unionists
Medium Foot: Light Infantry, Sharpshooters, and Pioniers
Heavy Foot: Line Infantry, Militia, etc., etc.

In Clear-Fair Med and Hvy are both 4 usage.

In Mountain-Fair:
Light Foot = 10
Medium Foot = 16
Heavy Foot = 18

So in the mountains you could get nearly twice any many irregulars into frontage as regulars, but try to get a division of irregulars together ;)

pgr wrote:(To find out the element frontage quota, look at the element info (combat information...or mobility...cant remember)
Now bad weather, the element quotas go up. If you look at the terrain data files, you can see how the quota changes per unit type for mud, harsh weather etc. The weather effects can be dramatic, harsh weather in woods ups the quota for a cavalry element from 2 to 12 for example.


Feel free to check out the wiki on frontage: http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/index.php? ... ction=edit


So, for Artillery, apparently--other than slow artillery--nothing matters. They all work the same.

Since the only units with Light Infantry are those which start out with LitInf-Mil-Mil one can simply not coordinate the usage of Light Infantry to make-up some units which would be exceptionally good in for example West Virginia.

Irregulars might do pretty well in very poor terrain on paper, but in the field things will look different. The Combat Unit Quota for Mountain-Fair is 100, so Line Infantry--see above--could fit 5 Regiments into frontage. Irregulars will only gain an advantage in frontage once they have more than 5 elements to put into frontage, otherwise the point is moot. Other combat factors might also play a role, but I'm not sure at the moment what those might be.

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Re: A Case for Using Only Pea Shooters

Mon May 07, 2018 8:03 am

Straight Arrow wrote:Why? The range in a mountain area is not the normal 99, as in all other areas, but rather a tiny 4.


Oi, good Sir Arrow. Sadly, due to life kicking me in balls several times, I haven't had the time to touch an ageod game since our last bought...

As far as i can recall, other terrian types also have a limited range of 4. Swamps and Forests (or is it woods?). Or bad weather could drop range to 4. But ya, I think you are correct in your theory: big guns are better left to other terrain types. If an event gives you a 6 pounder, sending it to the mountains or swamps may be the best place for it.

Really, the two games you mentioned, CW2 and the WW1 game, are probably the two ageod games where this bad terrain frontage concept matters the least. In Birth of America 2 or AJE, you have much better resources to take advantage of frontage limits. And in those games, concentrating your light elements, say, under Francis Marion in the swamps will probably earn you a nickname if a British column happens to wander your way. :indien:

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Straight Arrow
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Re: A Case for Using Only Pea Shooters

Tue May 08, 2018 4:02 am

Cardinal Ape wrote:
Straight Arrow wrote:Why? The range in a mountain area is not the normal 99, as in all other areas, but rather a tiny 4.


Oi, good Sir Arrow. Sadly, due to life kicking me in balls several times, I haven't had the time to touch an ageod game since our last bought...



My friend, it's good to hear from you; life is kicking you in the balls, eh?

I suggest yelling, "Fu**k you, I'm Millwall," and fight the knife wielding assassins off with your fists. While doing this, try chanting, "No one likes us. We don't care."

If that doesn’t grab you, go Gurkha. Follow in Bishnu Prasad Shrestha’s footsteps, sit quietly and hand over your wallet when asked. But if the thugs threaten the young lady beside you, stand up and take out your kukri.

https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles ... in-robbery

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