lightbrave
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My opponent is pissed (and i dont blame him)

Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:04 am

Here is a screenshot of the map after turn in question.

https://i.imgur.com/6H1IV6i.jpg

Here are the battle results for said battle.

https://i.imgur.com/PiEAQ00.jpg

As expressed in an earlier post I asked how could a force 1700 power strong enter into a region controlled by my forces 100% with a corps of mine about 1400 power strong and entrenched. I asked if he played any kind of cards on that turn like Cavalry Screen or Deep Recon or something and he said he did not.

For a few turns his corps just sits there not attacking and me not attacking either. He is losing supply each turn so he decides to retreat back to Grant across the river. With me still in defensive posture, he decides to move. He said he put his corps on Blue/Blue with evade. Mind you I have 100% military control the whole time. So with nobody on offensive posture a huge battle occurs pretty much all but annihilating Grants army. Now the amount of men on both sides are almost even. I am at a level 5 entrenchment but have the worst Army commander I have in command. He has the best Army commander he has which is Grant who has an attack value of 6 I believe and my guy Johnston has a defense value of 1. He has good subordinates as well. If you look at the link of the battle statistics I posted you will see he got wrecked.
What should he have done? Is his corps just stuck there(which what is left of it still remains there) I suggested he might have wanted to detach the corps and go green/green with evade and that way if he didn't escape at least the rest of his army wouldn't follow him to destruction. What is the proper way to do this because he insists that it is a game glitch but I think there must be something vital that he did wrong(although I'm not sure what).

Why was his corps allowed to cross without attacking a few turns ago in the first place?

Why cant he cross back over (if I'm not on offensive posture) without attacking me. I did have the entrenchment bonus so I'm certain I was on defense.

I did play the cavalry screen card that turn in the battle region just for hell of it to maybe test it. Not sure if that has anything whatsoever to do with it.

On a secondary note, even if whatever he did made him have to attack, why was it almost a fight till you die battle. He lost upwards of 80% of his men before retreating. My opponent was on blue/blue.

Although its a great victory for me, I really don't want to win this way. I have a pissed off opponent (which I understand) who just doesn't want to play anymore (at least for now) because of something we cant figure out.

By the way the terrain and weather are as follows. Clear/Storm/Harsh Weather. I'm not sure if that too has anything to do with it.

Somebody please help us to figure this out. We are willing to answer any questions.

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Gray Fox
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Re: My opponent is pissed (and i dont blame him)

Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:25 am

Okay it's round 2 in the pic. Apparently, the MC finally kicked in when he tried to retreat and set his force to Offense. The Union troops have lost most of their cohesion, which would account for the cowardice icons and equate to not fighting well. Crossing a river is always a horrible idea in combat, so that would explain the Division getting destroyed.

Did he try to attack while on your side of the river without withdrawing? Did he try to bring in reinforcements?
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

lightbrave
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Re: My opponent is pissed (and i dont blame him)

Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:12 am


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Durk
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Re: My opponent is pissed (and i dont blame him)

Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:14 am

To get out of such a situation your opponent needed to do green/green with avoid combat selected. And, this is only a hope and a prayer.

Majorc28
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Re: My opponent is pissed (and i dont blame him)

Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:05 pm

Are you playing on Veteran Activation? If so I think the Union Corps commander never became active until the turn of the great battle. Gray Fox speculated that the military control kicked in and prompted the fight. I think this is the case also.

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Gray Fox
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Re: My opponent is pissed (and i dont blame him)

Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:41 pm

A detailed description of the battle exists as a temp file called !BattleLog. It's a long text file. It only exists until you fight another battle, so you may want to look at it if you didn't have any other combat. Mine end up in an additional folder under My Games/CW2/Logs. So it's not actually in the CW2 game folder. You may have to do a search to find it. Here's an exerpt from one I saved as a permanent file in another folder:

8:47:45 PM (Reporting) Battle in 225 Fauquier, VA Day: 11 Round: 0
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) Commit Chance 1008586 P. Kearny' Corps 100 %, Rolled: 73 Commited
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) GiveGroupsTargets 1008586 P. Kearny' Corps initiating fight against faction 1000002 engaging: 1002494 Manassas Guard
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) 1002494 Manassas Guard new target is 1008586 P. Kearny' Corps
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) Commit Chance 1003511 Army of the Potomac 100 %, Rolled: 52 Commited
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) GiveGroupsTargets 1003511 Army of the Potomac supports 1002494 Manassas Guard against 1008586 P. Kearny' Corps
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) Checking combat stance for United States of America in region 225 Fauquier, VA
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) Preliminary test: No need to retreat from this battle: OppPower: 1673 FacPower: 3443 .
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) Checking combat stance for Confederate States of America in region 225 Fauquier, VA
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) InCS %: 1 New Retreat Will %: 99
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) Ammo %: 100 New Retreat Will %: 99
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) Weighted average of Trench levels: 6
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) Power of opponents compared to us: 205.80 % Base Retreat Will: 40.00 %
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) Dice rolled: 59
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) => We want to stay in battle
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) 1008586 P. Kearny' Corps new target is 1002494 Manassas Guard
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) Commit Chance 1003511 Army of the Potomac 100 %, Rolled: 85 Commited
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) GiveGroupsTargets 1003511 Army of the Potomac supports 1002494 Manassas Guard against 1008586 P. Kearny' Corps
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) 1002494 Manassas Guard new target is 1008586 P. Kearny' Corps
8:47:45 PM (Reporting) <<<-----START----->>>

This gives a "Power of opponents compared to us: 205.80 %" line that the program works out. Numerically, Grant looks about equal to your force in the Battle Report, but this line of the !BattleLog file may show otherwise.

If you DL the CW2 DB from here...

viewtopic.php?f=340&t=35005

...you can check the Terrains file. Your defending force in Clear terrain gets a to-hit advantage for your regular infantry, artillery etc. Additionally, level 5 entrenchment gives your artillery a 1.6 factor in determining to hit, so +60% over Grant's guns. Basically, Grant should never have tried to cross the river and attack your entrenched force. I don't know why a battle did not happen right then, but the result most likely would have been the same.
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

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Captain_Orso
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Re: My opponent is pissed (and i dont blame him)

Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:24 pm

Read your thread on Military Control. Your answer is there.

--
For everybody:

1. A stack in PP (Passive Posture) has in, most case, no influence on the game. They will not block supply, gain MC, fight (mostly they just take hits and flail with their arms while getting kicked in the ass), or block movement. They can be moved, see thing, retreat, use supplies (they will forage if they have to), and be killed.

2. Any non-stealthy stack (I believe it has only to do with stealth, so cavalry, raiders, etc) entering a region, where it has <5% MC will automatically gain 5%MC and be changed to OP, unless already in OP or AP.

This is why when you move your stack in DP into an enemy region it always goes to OP, which generally causes a battle.

A stack in PP, will of course not doe this, because it is in PP.

Everything you've described is WAD and not the least bit surprising. You've simply not be paying attention to what PP means, and what affects it can have.

lightbrave
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Re: My opponent is pissed (and i dont blame him)

Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:51 pm

Thanks Gray, i will have to start looking into these battle log reports.

Me and my opponent (redoing the turn many times) figured out the best course of action which is for him to go green/green evade to exit the region. Also detach the corps in case a battle does ensue, that way the rest of the army does not come up and also get annihilated. This never explained how he got into the region in the first place as that is still an ongoing discussion for me. Captain_Orso says you can enter an enemy controlled region on green/green without attacking. I know you can easily do this with cavalry but i didnt think you could do it with a whole Army.

This other discussion is labeled Military Control. Please join in.

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Gray Fox
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Re: My opponent is pissed (and i dont blame him)

Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:17 pm

I'm also certain that a large stack cannot evade contact. What can be done is to break the Corps down into many small independent stacks of a few elements each. Specifically, a brigade size of three to four elements. Set these to Green/Green Evade contact and get out of Dodge.
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

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Cardinal Ape
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Re: My opponent is pissed (and i dont blame him)

Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:44 am

Using the cavalry screen and the disinformation RGDs can increase the hide value of all your regular troops by 4. These RGD's cannot be countered when played in hostile territory.

I've seen full sized corps escape using that combo of cards. Still, its best to break down the corps into smaller units like Fox says.

Seems like a good time for your opponent to have played the scorched earth RGD to regain some cohesion. I don't see a Union partisan in the area, but scorched earth does combo well with a partisan ambush: +20% cohesion to 45 of your elements and -33% cohesion to 15 enemy elements.

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pgr
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Re: My opponent is pissed (and i dont blame him)

Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:28 pm

Captain_Orso wrote:Read your thread on Military Control. Your answer is there.

--
For everybody:


2. Any non-stealthy stack (I believe it has only to do with stealth, so cavalry, raiders, etc) entering a region, where it has <5% MC will automatically gain 5%MC and be changed to OP, unless already in OP


I'm a bit suprised that the corps could have gotten into a region with out forcing a fight because the infantry would force the rule above.

I did notice that weather was snowy. I have seen stacks get stuck when the time to retreat is more than 15 days. When the next turn rolls around the green stance goes orange because of the 5% rule. Its possible he entered the reagion, the stack tried to retreat but couldent escape in that turn. The next turn your opponent cancels the retreat, goes defensive. A few turns pass with him defensive, and then when he moved, a stance change was forced. Extra long movement times can make weard things happen.

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Captain_Orso
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Re: My opponent is pissed (and i dont blame him)

Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:43 pm

Stacks in PP never start battles.

Movement is...weird.

Thought experiment

Imagine this real world situation. County A is a level open area, mostly open fields, with no large changes in the height of the landscape nor anything more than a small meandering creek. County B is equally as flat, but mostly swampy and marshy. Both are approximately 30x30mi square.

A corps is bivouacked about in the center of County A. In the morning it packs up and starts marching for County B where approximately in the center of County B it will stop to bivouac.

It takes a several days for the corps to reach the border between the two Counties, but once the lead formations enter the swamps of County B, the roads become smaller, softer, and fewer, slowing movement considerably.

Although it only took several days for the corps to march to the edge of County A, it took 2 times as long for it to march through the swampy landscape to reach its bivouac area in the center of County B.

So the most of the time marching the corps has spent in the swamps of County B.

Imagine these two Counties are two regions in the game.

A Corps Stack in A starts to move into B. The region's tool-tip tells us, it will take 18 days for your stack to make the move, At the end of the first turn, the Corps Stack is still moving, it has lost a small some cohesion for marching continuously for two weeks, and thus the move, which started off as 18 days of march is not listed as 24 days, and although the Corps Stack has been marching over clear terrain for 14 days, it sell hasn't started to enter the target hex.

After 24 days of marching, the corps arrives, and *BOOM* suddenly it is in the swamps and not clear terrain.

When it leave to return to County A, it will take 5 days, but these will all be spent in the swamp, and miraculously on the 5th day, *SNAP* the entire corps is in the center of County A.

Weird :blink:

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pgr
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Re: My opponent is pissed (and i dont blame him)

Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:07 am

Captain_Orso wrote:Stacks in PP never start battles.

I was going to disagree with this but then I decided to do an experiment before I put my foot in my mouth.

I went with the Gettysburg battle. Indeed, passive stacks do not start battles, and I was able to get Ewell, passive, into Yankee occupied Carroll MD without provoking a fight. (If I kept him on passive, with the Union on passive, I could extract him without a fight as well.)

The weird part, is that when I attacked with him....I got fight to the finish. He was wiped out. I'm attaching the battle log in an error report post, but the key part seems to be this : "Group 1001238 Stuart Div. will retreat in same region Carroll, MD." For all the rounds the CSA rolls retreat and then retreats in the same region. (Its also a bit weird that the battle happens at all, I was using hidden activation and Ewell was in reality inactive...so if you re run the turn half the time there is no battle, but if there is a battle, it is always to the death.)

Not quite sure what to make of it, but for whatever reason the retreat pathfinding couldn't see a way out (and there was a CSA 100%MC region right next door.)

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Captain_Orso
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Re: My opponent is pissed (and i dont blame him)

Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:59 pm

pgr wrote:
Captain_Orso wrote:Stacks in PP never start battles.

I was going to disagree with this but then I decided to do an experiment before I put my foot in my mouth.


I do this often myself :)

pgr wrote:I went with the Gettysburg battle. Indeed, passive stacks do not start battles, and I was able to get Ewell, passive, into Yankee occupied Carroll MD without provoking a fight. (If I kept him on passive, with the Union on passive, I could extract him without a fight as well.)


This test is too extreme. You will never find this in a real game. Ewell is leading a corps? I'm going to say the Union stack is Reynolds, just to put a name to it.

Put Ewell's stack in PP and Reynolds' stack in DP and repeat. Basically there will be no difference, as long as we are only talking about Carroll MD. A stack in DP is as effective as if it were in PP, if the enemy stack entering its region is also in PP.

- So nobody does anything; everybody has become Dunkers? Well, no, not exactly. The defending stack in the region is still defending, and maintaining the MC in the region. And this has a profound affect on the enemy stack's ability to move out of that region into another enemy controlled region. Namely, it will likely not be able to do it. This is how ZOC (Zone Of Control) works in AGEod games.

pgr wrote:The weird part, is that when I attacked with him....I got fight to the finish. He was wiped out. I'm attaching the battle log in an error report post, but the key part seems to be this : "Group 1001238 Stuart Div. will retreat in same region Carroll, MD." For all the rounds the CSA rolls retreat and then retreats in the same region. (Its also a bit weird that the battle happens at all, I was using hidden activation and Ewell was in reality inactive...so if you re run the turn half the time there is no battle, but if there is a battle, it is always to the death.)

Not quite sure what to make of it, but for whatever reason the retreat pathfinding couldn't see a way out (and there was a CSA 100%MC region right next door.)


You make it sound like it would have been preferable for Stuart's division to leave the region.

I'm not exactly sure at the moment, what determines whether a stack retreats to out of a region or retreats within it. I do recall doing RC (Release Candidate - for patch releases) testing on the new retreat rules, and one of the major issues was retreating across a river, which basically, if the defending stack(s) was strong enough could easily lead to the retreating stack being completely destroyed in one turn; and I am talking about a fat corps stack.

So IIRC Pocus put some code in to not so easily throw a retreating stack to outside of a battle region.

The question which remains in my mind, as long as one side can put a stack into PP and move it across a river and into an enemy occupied region without causing a battle *cough*cough*cough*AI*cough*, what can you do to defend against this tactic?

I haven't experimented with this, but the only thing I can think, of would be to put a small stack into OP in the region, a kind of picket, so that if an enemy stack in PP does come across the river your are defending, it will get attacked by your picket.

Once the game has discovered that there is a stack in OP which is aware of an enemy stack in its region, this is when a battle starts.

Without going into too much detail, as in our example above, Reynolds' stack is in Carroll MD in DP with Buford leading a cav. in OP, when Ewell leads his stack into the region in PP. Buford's stack starts a battle with Ewell's stack, but all stacks in the region can be called up to fight. This is not like MTSG. This is BEFORE the battle starts, so any other stacks in the region picked to fight, fight right from the very first round of battle.

Since Buford's stack is much smaller than it's target stack (Ewell's stack) it check for other friendly stacks in the region, not already targeting or being targeted, and ofc finds Reynolds' stack. So now Reynolds' and Buford's stacks are fight against Ewell, who is still in PP, although Reynolds is in DP.

The biggest issue with this, is that Buford might be at higher risk during the battle of being targeted, but I'm not sure.

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