lightbrave
Lieutenant
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Location: Jackson, Georgia

Military Control

Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:16 am

So I have a corps just east of Memphis and my opponent has an army across a small river. I'm entrenched and have 100% military control. His force crosses the river, there is no battle and now he is just sitting there on defensive posture in my region. I still have 100% military control and I'm not dislodged from my entrenchments. How can this happen? I was under the impression that if I have a force in a region with 100% military control and an enemy enters the region then they MUST shift and attack. What am I missing?

Also, I asked my opponent and he said he moves in with Orange/Orange anyways

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Straight Arrow
Brigadier General
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Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:44 pm
Location: Washington State

Re: Military Control

Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:36 am

Did he use a Cavalry Screen card? When I was desperate enough to insanely attack across a river in the face of the foe, I've pulled the same trick off twice.

I thought the success was due to dumb luck and the card masking my forces, but I really don't understand the game mechanics enough to know how it happened.

Has anyone else experienced this?

Majorc28
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Location: Iowa

Re: Military Control

Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:36 pm

What level of activation are you using? If the General was not active I don’t think any battle can happen as he couldn’t change to orange/orange.

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Captain_Orso
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Location: Stuttgart, Germany

Re: Military Control

Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:58 pm

Why do you say he's in defensive posture? You cannot see that unless you have FOW turned all the way off, if then.

The stack is not in DP, it is in PP. Since your stack was in DP, and his in PP, he could cross the minor river, and enter your region, without triggering automatically going to OP. But, he also gains no MC, which you have already noted.

What you do now, is quickly send another stack with lot's off Police Value, like cavalry in OP into the region he just vacated to as quickly as possible gain as much MC as possible, for when his MC has gone down, there is now where he can move OR ROUTE to. He can never gain any MC without first going to OP and attacking, and if there is no adjacent region where he has high MC, his stack cannot leave your region, and will never gain any supplies.

Your only worry is if another stack from the same army becomes adjacent, and could MTSG. Otherwise, the ball is in his court. He must attack, or starve.

lightbrave
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Location: Jackson, Georgia

Re: Military Control

Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:38 pm

Straight Arrow - My opponent says he didn't use any cards and entered the region orange/orange.

Majorc28 - Not sure what his activation of the commander is but ill try and find out. Even if he missed his roll i thought you must attack if you enter a region with 100% military control. If activation roll is the reason, then it might be a good idea to cross a river with a commander who has a low activation stat. That way when you move the rest of the army in there will be no river crossing penalty. Doing that could be a bad idea for many different reasons but maybe if the situation is right it could be beneficial.

Captain_Orso - I know he was in defensive posture because my opponent told me he was as we are trying to figure this out together. I assume you viewed my other post as i think your referring to him trying to leave on Defensive posture. This post is referring to him entering the regions a few turns before on orange/orange

So based on your second paragraph an entire Army can cross a river and enter my 100% MC region without having to attack. This makes hiding behind rivers pretty much useless. And by the way as stated in my original post, he went in orange/orange as i was told by him.

I do get what your saying about moving cavalry behind him to cut off retreat but again based on your second paragraph he could just go green/green evade and enter the region anyways.

Let me know if i am misunderstanding you..... especially in regards to your second paragraph.

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Captain_Orso
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Location: Stuttgart, Germany

Re: Military Control

Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:39 am

lightbrave wrote:8<
...

Captain_Orso - I know he was in defensive posture because my opponent told me he was as we are trying to figure this out together. I assume you viewed my other post as i think your referring to him trying to leave on Defensive posture. This post is referring to him entering the regions a few turns before on orange/orange


Plain and simple, if the stack entering the region was in OP (Offensive Posture) there should likely have been a battle. The only exception to this, with regards to fairly large stacks, which these were, might be, if the moving stack arrived on the very last day, and there was no time for a battle to start because of the 'battle delay' set in options by the player executing the turn.

Even if that were the case, during the next turn, the game engine checks the status of MC and ROE (Posture) on day one. If the enemy stack has less than 5% MC, unless in PP (Passive Posture), it will immediately gain 5% MC, and be changed to OP; with all the consequences associated with that, which would most certainly mean battle.

lightbrave wrote:So based on your second paragraph an entire Army can cross a river and enter my 100% MC region without having to attack. This makes hiding behind rivers pretty much useless. And by the way as stated in my original post, he went in orange/orange as i was told by him.


Yes, that is the situation, which is not to say, there are no consequences for being in that situation. I am not advocating for the rule, only reporting on it.

lightbrave wrote:I do get what your saying about moving cavalry behind him to cut off retreat but again based on your second paragraph he could just go green/green evade and enter the region anyways.


No, you cannot block a stack from moving into a region by having your own stack in the region. You might do battle with it, but you are already in the stack's region doing battle, so it would be questionable, although in some circumstances, it might be a good move. It would really depend greatly on the situation.

What I was getting at is the ZOC Rule (Zone Of Control): Explain Zone of Control...

An enemy stack in your region requires enough MC in a region in order to move into that region. The rule basically is meant to prevent an enemy stack from simply moving through your region and out the other side into a region where it has little or no MC.

If the enemy loses enough MC in the region of origin of the enemy stack, the enemy stack will not be capable of moving or routing into that region.

lightbrave wrote:Let me know if i am misunderstanding you..... especially in regards to your second paragraph.


See above.

lightbrave
Lieutenant
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:39 am
Location: Jackson, Georgia

Re: Military Control

Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:33 pm

[quote="Captain_Orso"][quote="lightbrave"]8<
...

Plain and simple, if the stack entering the region was in OP (Offensive Posture) there should likely have been a battle. The only exception to this, with regards to fairly large stacks, which these were, might be, if the moving stack arrived on the very last day, and there was no time for a battle to start because of the 'battle delay' set in options by the player executing the turn.

That actually makes sense if that is the case.


Even if that were the case, during the next turn, the game engine checks the status of MC and ROE (Posture) on day one. If the enemy stack has less than 5% MC, unless in PP (Passive Posture), it will immediately gain 5% MC, and be changed to OP; with all the consequences associated with that, which would most certainly mean battle.

Ok this does not make sense then. He remained in the region for at least 2 turns (maybe 3 i cant remember) with my military control being 100% the whole time. He was losing supply each turn so im sure the game was "aware" he was there so there has to be some other factor to this. Maybe moving has something to do with triggering offensive posture because the 2 or 3 turns he was there he didnt move and there was no shift to offensive but when he tried to withdraw (on defensive posture) he triggered a battle.

If there is no factor to explain this then i assume there actually is a glitch or bug in our game, but then again what are the odds of this glitch happening 3 turns in a row even after the fact that he got in without attacking in the first place. Either the game system (whether just our game or everybody's game) is bugged or there must be some factor to these rules that is unknown.

I guess this needs to be tested. If some of you would test this as well, that would be great. I am going to have my opponent move a stack on green/green/evade into my area again (in a different area). If i can successfully do this within 10 tries or so, then ill test just sitting there a few turns.

Otherwise i am at a loss of what to do

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Cardinal Ape
General of the Army
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Re: Military Control

Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:02 am

While a lack of military control causes a force to flip to offensive posture it does not guarantee that a battle will take place.

I would guess that your opponent is getting messages about how his force successfully managed to retreat before battle. Perhaps from being overpowered by a decent margin his force is refusing to commit to battle, and since no opposing force in the region is in offensive posture the retreat is automatically successful. This retreat before battle does not count as a defeat so it will not put the force into passive posture; it is allowed to stay in defensive posture.

In essence your opponent's force is refusing to commit suicide against your superior force.

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pgr
General of the Army
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Location: Paris France (by way of Wyoming)

Re: Military Control

Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:19 pm

I'm looking at this post in conjonction with your other post regarding the resulting battle.

I think the most likely answer is that there was a battle but he retreated before the battle started. (The message log would reflect this as x decided to retreat before the battle) . The stack would have gone passive and tried to retreat. If not enough days remain for him to get to the place he is retreating to, he starts the next turn in your province and you have 100% MC because he was passive through the last days of the turn.

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Captain_Orso
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Location: Stuttgart, Germany

Re: Military Control

Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:34 am

Without the Saves from the turn before the move and the turns until the actual battle, one can only guess what happened and assume that the reports of the situation were 100% correct. I've seen many reports which investigations repute to put much more thought into this.

Retreating from a battle before the first round of battle is a general possibility, but it only occurs if one side it has a far greater relative power than the other. The descriptions do not support this was the situation.

Either the reports of the situation are inaccurate or a bug occurred.

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pgr
General of the Army
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Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:33 pm
Location: Paris France (by way of Wyoming)

Re: Military Control

Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:13 am

Captain_Orso wrote: Either the reports of the situation are inaccurate or a bug occurred.


That about sums it up....

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