lightbrave
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Union Gold

Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:58 pm

Iv seen several times that it is worth going after the 3 Union held regions with gold. Iv actually succeeded in getting the gold in Colorado for while but could not hold it indefinitely. Is there a Veteran Confederate player that would be willing to personally talk to me through email because im sure that you have game "secrets" or "strategies" that you maybe just do not with to share on the forums but i need the help. Id say my opponent and I have almost the same knowledge of the game mechanics and how they work (he may know a little more) so im already at a disadvantage. Back to the gold though. How do i get all 3 regions without pouring badly needed beginning resources into the Far West? Is there a strategy on this? Is it worth going after against a competent Union player because im sure there is a counter for whatever Southern strategy there is?

lightbrave
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Re: Union Gold

Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:12 am

LOL, so nobody has any input or strategy on this?

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Gray Fox
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Re: Union Gold

Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:37 am

If you held all three for a game year that would only be $780. You could get that by raising taxes, selling bonds etc. much easier. Besides, extra cash isn't the problem for the CSA. It's WS and you can not buy a whole lot of it.
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ArmChairGeneral
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Re: Union Gold

Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:48 am

Colorado gold is interdictable, but not permanently capturable, IMO. The other gold fields are speculative at best; some people have posted reasonable sounding California strategies, though.

A Ranger rush on the Colorado gold fields from the build-point in north Texas is possible; you have to soften them up with RGDs first but you can easily infiltrate and capture them. Holding them is another story, as the Denver build point next door can provide enough firepower to kick you out if the Union commits.

A more profitable Ranger rush instead targets the two stockades in southern Colorado on the trail from Denver to Taos for destruction. Without them the Union cannot reliably relay supplies or march artillery or other units built in Denver to the Rio Grande Valley. Unless and until the Union forces the California column through, their forces in Rio Grande will be cut off from help for the first half of the game.

Once the stockades are down I exfiltrate the Rangers east, fort busting along the line of stockades leading from Denver with my goal being to break the stockade chain to Denver and eventually help contest the Ft. Supply / Ft. Arbuckle area (which stops raiding into North Texas and allows CSA raiding into the Indian Territories and Western Kansas/Missouri.)

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Gray Fox
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Re: Union Gold

Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:39 pm

Assuming that the Union player doesn't use RGD's in '62 to land sailors (4 total) and strip cannon from the Pacific fleet (2x12 lbers) while adding White Unionist militia units (8 total). With the makings of a Division or two to stomp a Ranger offensive, Virginia City and CA gold mines are secure. Athena may not do this, but I would.
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ArmChairGeneral
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Re: Union Gold

Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:06 am

Sorry, I was talking about the Colorado Gold fields, landing cannon on the Pacific wouldn't stop a Ranger rush to Denver. (?) Denver itself will be able to build more than enough stuff to chase Rangers or Cav in Golden away after a few turns.

Getting back to the OP's question, no I don't think it is viable/important to try to capture any of the gold fields in the Grand Campaigns. I have had some success harassing Denver and the gold fields in some of the other scenarios, but that has been more from keeping Denver busy while I win in the Rio Grande Valley than any $$ I got from the gold fields.

I don't think the Pacific fields are even worth considering, money isn't the bottleneck for the CSA as Fox points out, so the resources you would have to spend don't warrant the payoff.

Cutting the stockade chain between Denver and Taos and breaking the Union reinforcement/supply route is a far more useful task for early Rangers than the benefit you could get from rushing straight at the Colorado Gold.

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Captain_Orso
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Re: Union Gold

Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:43 pm

Gray Fox wrote:Assuming that the Union player doesn't use RGD's in '62 to land sailors (4 total) and strip cannon from the Pacific fleet (2x12 lbers) while adding White Unionist militia units (8 total). With the makings of a Division or two to stomp a Ranger offensive, Virginia City and CA gold mines are secure. Athena may not do this, but I would.


I believe you cannot use the RGD's on locked ships.

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Gray Fox
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Re: Union Gold

Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:13 pm

I'm working late and only have my laptop with the 2015 version, but all of the RGD's work on the west coast. I'll try it at home with the latest version.

Everything works with the latest version as well. The sailors RGD only plays in Virginia City, but they do show up.
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Cardinal Ape
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Re: Union Gold

Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:49 am

Capturing that gold is a fools errand. :leprechau

Destroying the two gold mines in Virginia City and Colorado can be done against a human. You need to get partisans with the RGD cards. Partisans have the pillager trait and will auto destroy the mines if they take the region. Though, they will only destroy the mines if the region is loyal to the USA. So don't play demonstration cards on the regions to increase their loyalty, normally one would play those if they wish to capture the mines with cavalry and irregulars.

To hit Golden City, CO, partisans can be recruited in two regions to the south... In South Park.

For Virginia City you can send partisans up from Western Arizona and the two Southern California regions - it may not be obvious that those regions are adjacent to Virginia City.

The icons of the gold mines on the map won't be removed when they are destroyed. Check the tool-tip for the city to see if the mine is present. You will also get a note in the message log when the mine gets toasted.

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Re: Union Gold

Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:12 am

Ape, why not against Athena?

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Cardinal Ape
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Re: Union Gold

Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:58 pm

Capturing those gold mines against Athena is a possibility so I wouldn't be so quick to burn and run. She isn't too good at cutting those thin supply lines needed to hold those mines like a human would be. Also, if I played demonstration cards on the gold mines against a human they would immediately start to build defenses in those regions, effectively killing the attempt. Athena won't do that.

Those copperhead and partisan RGDs don't come until January of '62. With a good ranger rush you could have the fields in hand before destruction is even an option. However, once you increase the loyalty of those mines then destruction is no longer an option. Sadly, one can't manually destroy the mines with the raze structure order.

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ArmChairGeneral
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Re: Union Gold

Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:37 am

Thanks Ape, that is very sound analysis.

On a related note, will Partisans destroy enemy Farm Fields\Plantations in the same way they can destroy the mines?

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Gray Fox
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Re: Union Gold

Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:37 am

For what it's worth, I just used the Scorched Earth RGD to lower Unionist loyalty in Golden City in July 1861. I had moved the infantry there from Denver. Therefore, the mine still produces, but is no longer a pillager's target for destruction. Nevada and Northern CA are also garrisoned with troops from the west coast.

ACG, I believe the farms are only pillaged for a season by pillagers.
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Re: Union Gold

Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:38 am

Fox,

That's an elegant counter-play; stationing a couple of Vols in Golden after that is trivial for the Union and probably a good idea anyway if the CSA is active in Colorado.

So Farm pillaging is just normal region supply-pillaging behavior (like when there are no buildings or structures) which recovers in the next growing season?

But the Farm/Plantation itself isn't destroyed? What would happen with an Arsenal or Powder Mill or something? Could a Pillager destroy those by passing through unopposed, because if not, how come they can destroy a mine? If there were more than one building (Plantation, Mine, Arsenal, Shipyard, etc.) would the Pillager destroy all of them or only one each turn?

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Gray Fox
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Re: Union Gold

Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:41 pm

Thanks! This establishes the window of opportunity. "Pillagers" would have to get to Golden City prior to late July '61. After that, a Ranger operation may still get the gold mine (temporarily), but Goldfinger's Operation Grand Slam, I mean Cardinal Ape's mine busting plan, won't work because the citizens will only be about 10% loyal to the Union.

Virginia City will have a west coast infantry regiment by that date and soon thereafter another, a cav squadron and a 10 lber battery. CSA pillagers would have to dislodge them to do any pillaging.

Northern CA has several locked brigades that the Union can entrench in the region with a supply wagon for extra firepower. Even I would find that difficult to overcome.

So with one RGD used and no other expense, the gold mines are safe from destruction. The sailor/cannon/militia RGDs give the Union a strong force for defense of the west that can eventually retake CO.

Here's what's left in the Wiki about pillaging:

*Your forces will automatically capture any supply stockpiles from enemy structures which fell into their hands during movement. They will first replenish their own supply reserves, the remaining supplies stay on map and change ownership. Structures also remain intact and change hands.
*Forces assigned the “evade fight” special order will burn all supply stockpiles in their path except in their destination region. Structures remain unharmed and simply change hands.
*To destroy a depot or fort, a force must start its move in the target region and use the “destroy depot” and/or “destroy fort” special order. This will take some time and will be resolved before any planned movement.
***
*Indians and raiders are special units identified by their “*pillage*” model [[attribute]]. They destroy all structures NOT defined by the parameter '''PillagerCanCapture = 1'''.
*The probability of successfully carrying out such operations depends on the pillage value of the force, or if the force contains elements with the [[*Pillage*]] Attribute.
***
*Last but not least, in Advanced [[supply]] games, marauding raiders block supply transport through the region they are located in.

Ciao for now!
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

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Cardinal Ape
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Re: Union Gold

Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:42 am

Farmfields can be destroyed. Like mines, the farmfields on map icon will not be removed but its destruction can be seen in the message log and the region ledger. I'd assume plantations can be destroyed too but I can't recall for certain.

And with that ends the glory days of bushwhacking with Quantrill. 75 supplies and 1 recruit a pop, good times.. Now every mine and farm will be garrisoned before they get burnt. 'tis now a lost cause. So sad.


Using scorched earth on the gold mines definitely works to prevent burning. Though, it seems a bit excessive. The CSA doesn't get access to the partisans cards until Jan '62. That is more than enough time to build a traditional defense. Even so, the idea of scorching your own gold mine is amusing, nice evolution of chess moves on that one.

It would pain me to use the scorched earth card in such a way, wasting the 20% cohesion gain to 50 elements. In my opinion its best used to pursue a defeated force. I always try to keep one in reserve, it can be a real bacon saver.

Really, these mine and farm burning plans are easy to stop. But still, the CSA should check to see if the defense have been built in time. One should not assume they are defended just because they are easy to defend; you gotta keep your opponent honest. Let your opponent know early that if he skimps on his backline defenses you will make him pay for it.

lightbrave
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Re: Union Gold

Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:59 am

Thank you all for your input. It is definitely noted

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