lightbrave
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Supply Wagons

Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:00 am

I recently played a game where I had a force in a fortified city in NM. The City of Mesilla. I had a force of about 192 and my opponent had a force with about 187. I had line infantry (with sharpshooters) and artillery with a leader. Next turn my guys surrendered. From what my opponent says, he regained cohesion I guess and he used a land mine so my redoubt had no benefit. However, my troops where still dug in since the beginning of the war. Lets say my guys had half the force my opponent had after my opponents cohesion recovery. Why would my guys just surrender? My opponent is of the opinion that its because I had no Supply Wagon. I had plenty of supply inside my city. Why would my guys surrender because they just don't have a Wagon to set the supplies in. The supplies are still there. What gives? This makes no sense. Someone please explain why they would just surrender?

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Gray Fox
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Re: Supply Wagons

Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:35 am

Unfortunately, the AGEWiki has apparently been hacked and gutted, so here is what I remember from the Wiki. A unit under siege with a Supply Unit only has a 5% chance to surrender. I always use a SU, so I don't remember the chance for not doing that, but apparently it's fairly high. The game mechanic specifies a SU so I don't use a Depot or a stack of supplies.
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

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Captain_Orso
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Re: Supply Wagons

Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:18 am

Firstly, the Wiki is still there, it's just very difficult to access the information; hard love, man :non:
Manual:Siege_combat When on the page, click the 'view source' tab to read the unformated text.

Supply Units and Depots, but also a fort's pull on supplies enhance siege survival through causing supply to be on-hand*. But even it you were sitting on the hugest pile of supplies, there is still a chance the defender will surrender.

The parameter controlling Siege Protection is in the 'GameLogic.opt' file:

Code: Select all

(patch level 1.06)
sieWagonDepotProtectChance    = 90       // Chance  that a non empty depot/wagon protects against surrender


* from Pocus
Depots, wagons, protect the exact same, if there is one of the two, they protect. But only if the defenders are still all in supply, i.e got supplied this turn. The moment one element fails to draw from the stock, the protection stops. So this is not a permanent bonus.


So, hiding inside a structure as opposed to defending against assault in the field has the advantage that the defender will likely take far less damage, but there is a chance they will lose their nerves and surrender. If the attacker has a great advantage in offensive artillery vs defensive artillery, the chances of surrender are far greater. If the defender has a low-quality of troops, the chances are also greatly increased.

Sieges are death-traps. With Mesilla, El Paso right next door. The besieger will be drawing supplies from there, so they can remain in place indefinitely. The defender will eventually surrender, and during this time, the besieger can extend his control over the land, while the defender is castrated. Why do that to yourself?

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Gray Fox
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Re: Supply Wagons

Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:30 pm

Thanks big bear, but when I click the link I get a blank page at the Wiki.
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

lightbrave
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Re: Supply Wagons

Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:03 pm

Thanks for reply Orso, but why would the Union draw supplies from El Paso when I control it as well? The first reply said when you have wagons there is only a 5% chance of surrender. I know its just "rules" of the game, but when your inside a city that has plenty of supply, there shouldn't be a greater chance of surrender just because I'm storing supply in a house instead of a wagon. I get how a wagon gives benefits to field armies being able to move supply around and what not, but in a fort or city it makes little sense to have to have one to decrease surrender.

lightbrave
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Re: Supply Wagons

Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:04 pm

Also, thanks for your reply as well Fox

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Durk
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Re: Supply Wagons

Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:27 am

lightbrave wrote:I get how a wagon gives benefits to field armies being able to move supply around and what not, but in a fort or city it makes little sense to have to have one to decrease surrender.


Conceptually in my view, having a wagon inside a city or port reflects the prudence of the commander to prepare for a long siege. That is, he gathers some supply.

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ArmChairGeneral
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Re: Supply Wagons

Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:37 am

The bottom line is that defending from within structures is extremely dangerous, since the enemy does not have to engage you unless they want to. When besieged (the enemy holds the region while you hold the structure) you have some percentage chance to surrender (and be completely destroyed) each turn, even WITH wagons. Without them, the percentage is much higher.

In the case of Mesilla/El Paso, you should have entrenched your force in the region and not the structure. When the opposing stack entered the region they would have been forced to attack you. If the power was roughly equal, they would have been at a disadvantage and probably lost.

Instead they entered the region for free and were able to lay siege, making you subject to surrender rolls each turn, and you failed one.

Takeaway: Don't try to hold a region by occupying the structure: instead entrench in the region. This forces the enemy to fight you in order to enter the region, and if you are beaten you can retreat to another region and not be subject to surrender rolls.

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Gray Fox
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Re: Supply Wagons

Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:50 pm

I prefer to use a Supply Wagon because your force gets a +10% combat bonus in addition to the lower surrender chance.

Two schools of thought exist for defense.

You can entrench a large force in the region. Of course, you won't have a large force available to defend every region, so you are limited in how many regions you can control like this. If you have 3 regions, then each might get a third of your total force strength. If these forces are an Army and two Corps, then you may hope that one will support a flanking region with MTSG. If beaten in battle, your force can always withdraw.

Alternatively, you could entrench a Division in a cheap stockade in each of the 3 regions. An enemy entering one of the regions is stopped dead in its tracks by the strong Zone of Control. The enemy would be at a distinct disadvantage if he tried to assault immediately. I did a test where a Division commanded by Butler stopped my D.C. blitz Army commanded by Beauregard and repulsed Beau's assault completely. A fort structure has a small frontage or bottleneck available to a large enemy assault force that most regions would not. The defender gets a terrain bonus for the fort, too. Also, the cannon in the fort can start firing out to their max range. True, the defenders can suffer a siege. However, you have the Divisions of one Corps holding each of the 3 stockades and the rest of your force is in reserve. You can use all of your reserves to counter-attack or maneuver around and close off the retreat path (and line of supply) of the pinned force laying siege. Don't let a Bastogne become an Alamo.

Good luck!
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

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Captain_Orso
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Re: Supply Wagons

Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:36 pm

Gray Fox wrote:Thanks big bear, but when I click the link I get a blank page at the Wiki.


Me, in my best Spanky voice: I saaaaaid...

Captain_Orso wrote:8<
Manual:Siege_combat When on the page, click the 'view source' tab to read the unformated text.
8<


You, in your best Buckwheat voice: O'tay 'Panky ;)

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Captain_Orso
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Re: Supply Wagons

Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:44 pm

lightbrave wrote:Thanks for reply Orso, but why would the Union draw supplies from El Paso when I control it as well? The first reply said when you have wagons there is only a 5% chance of surrender. I know its just "rules" of the game, but when your inside a city that has plenty of supply, there shouldn't be a greater chance of surrender just because I'm storing supply in a house instead of a wagon. I get how a wagon gives benefits to field armies being able to move supply around and what not, but in a fort or city it makes little sense to have to have one to decrease surrender.


Wait, what? LOL

I thought you were the Yanks, and had snuck in and taken Mesilla, and were being besieged by the Confederates, who would also likely still have El Paso. But then again, you didn't mention who was what and where, soooo :siffle:

At any rate, my statement about supplies from El Paso is really very tangential and doesn't really matter in the situation of your defenders surrendering so quickly.

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Captain_Orso
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Re: Supply Wagons

Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:50 pm

Durk wrote:
lightbrave wrote:I get how a wagon gives benefits to field armies being able to move supply around and what not, but in a fort or city it makes little sense to have to have one to decrease surrender.


Conceptually in my view, having a wagon inside a city or port reflects the prudence of the commander to prepare for a long siege. That is, he gathers some supply.


The mentioning of a Supply Unit in the Wiki text was only a tip, and after the statement Pocus made--quoted above--I had updated the Wiki article in March 2015 to:
Defender surrenders and all defending units are eliminated. Exception: if ALL defending units have received supplies during the supply distribution phase of that turn there is a 90% chance of the defending force not surrendering. The defending force having a [[supply wagon]] may help with this, but it is not necessary. A dr100 (die roll on a 100 sided die) is made. If the dr is <= the "sieWagonDepotProtectChance" [http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Sieges_and_breaches"Sieges and breaches"] value found in GameLogic.opt, (90 as of patch level 1.04) the surrender results is ignored. Source: [http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?38789-Current-(1-05-RC4)-Siege-Rules"Current (1.05 RC4) Siege Rules"].

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Gray Fox
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Re: Supply Wagons

Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:00 am

O'tay 'Panky!
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

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