Artillery: In or Out?

[Gray Fox]

Like minds:

viewtopic.php?f=343&t=39240

[pgr]

Why Fodder? If you simply increase the amount of GS for example a cavalry unit requires per turn, plus their capacity to carry GS so that they can remain in the field the same number of turns without picking up additional GS, 2 turns, you will make them into small fast supply units.

I did a quick and dirty mod to up GS consumption for units with horses a while back (viewtopic.php?f=340&t=38436&hilit=horses+eat). I based it off of historical figures for the relative weight of animal and human rations (its something crazy like 4-5 pounds per man per day but 24 pounds per horse) and limited a unit's ability to carry supplies to a one turn reserve (again because of the consumption of draft animals 10-15 days was the limit of what a force could carry before having to be resupplied or forage off the land).

I also played a bit with supply production (nerving town GS production and boosting GS production for farm structures)

I would of course love opinions about it

[Straight Arrow]

The cost of fodder is a key reason, if not the main reason, that cavalry was so expensive to operate.

Lighter riding stock, not draft horses, were cheap in America because of large numbers of wild horse herds in the West; many a cowboy made a living chasing and catching “broom tails” for sale in the East.

There’s an old cowboy saying that goes, $20 horse and $40 saddle, meaning a horse cost 1 months pay, but a saddle would cost you 2 months.

[Gray Fox]

Here's some rather interesting info with a reference listing:

http://www.reillysbattery.org/Newslette ... _grace.htm

[Captain_Orso]

Why Fodder? If you simply increase the amount of GS for example a cavalry unit requires per turn, plus their capacity to carry GS so that they can remain in the field the same number of turns without picking up additional GS, 2 turns, you will make them into small fast supply units.

I did a quick and dirty mod to up GS consumption for units with horses a while back (viewtopic.php?f=340&t=38436&hilit=horses+eat). I based it off of historical figures for the relative weight of animal and human rations (its something crazy like 4-5 pounds per man per day but 24 pounds per horse) and limited a unit's ability to carry supplies to a one turn reserve (again because of the consumption of draft animals 10-15 days was the limit of what a force could carry before having to be resupplied or forage off the land).

I also played a bit with supply production (nerving town GS production and boosting GS production for farm structures)

I would of course love opinions about it

An interesting idea. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "one turn reserve" though. Currently every unit, AFAIK, can always carry 2 turns worth of GS.

In RL this would be about 700lb of fodder per horse for 4 weeks in the field, let alone every thing else the horse would have to carry. I just don't think anything near that was actually carried. I'd have to look up the specifics, but from my understanding, cavalry often went into the field with the understanding that what they could carry on fodder would be consumed long before they returned to their own lines. The last days in the field were simply hard on the animals, and I remember reading how strongly that was factored into operations afield. The few times Grant allowed cavalry raids during the overland campaign the cavalry came once or twice into the situation where they couldn't return to the AoP as planned and were close to having to give up their mounts for lack of fodder, because the horse simply wore down withing days without fodder, and there was nothing you could do about it.

But game mechanics with 2 week turns will not allow anything close to cavalry operations without allowing cavalry one turn to go out and one turn to return. Anything less would ruin the game for cavalry.

I'd have to put some thought in to your mod Pgr with regards to 'fodder' requirements for many of the units you modded. Cavalry and Artillery units definitely operated with horses only, because, well with cavalry it's fairly obvious, but with artillery mules etc simply were not suitable for use near battle; mules especially not. They panicked far too easily, and basically went crazy in their panic.

I also have no idea at the moment what the gross weight in fodder for non-equine drought animals required is, but if you consider that you needed a very large number of wagons to transport fodder for horse, the drought animals drawing those wagons also need a large amount of fodder, so you would have to consider the consumption of supply units too, which should actually greatly lessen the effectiveness of each individual unit.

One might very well ---actually I expect this-- end up needing to provide 20-30 GS points get get a net of 10 GS to your horses.

Also, as I stated previously, one would also still be faced with the issue of cavalry units carrying a huge number of GS, which in current game terms can be consumed equally by man and animal, which is illogical.

Oh, I just had an idea, but I'd have to look into how it would work. What if cavalry carried 1 1/2 turns of GS?

[Captain_Orso]

The cost of fodder is a key reason, if not the main reason, that cavalry was so expensive to operate.

Lighter riding stock, not draft horses, were cheap in America because of large numbers of wild horse herds in the West; many a cowboy made a living chasing and catching “broom tails” for sale in the East.

There’s an old cowboy saying that goes, $20 horse and $40 saddle, meaning a horse cost 1 months pay, but a saddle would cost you 2 months.

I'm not sure about the cost of fodder. Perhaps in the shear amount necessary, but oats, corn, and whatever else was provided, themselves should be fairly cheap, especially when only for animal consumption, although I'm not sure there was actually any difference in consideration in that era. One can't allow the standards of today to fall into historic consideration without actual evidence.

Horses themselves may have been fairly cheap, but the military requirements did not allow for the use of just any horses. They had to be of a specific age ---IIRC at least 3 years and not older than 8--- and had to be of a nature that they would withstand the hard work and battlefield chaos and roar. The supply chain for horses was not so simple.

[Captain_Orso]

Here's some rather interesting info with a reference listing:

http://www.reillysbattery.org/Newslette ... _grace.htm

Yes, I know that article. It's quite insightful.

[Straight Arrow]

"I'm not sure about the cost of fodder. Perhaps in the shear amount necessary, but oats, corn, and whatever else was provided, themselves should be fairly cheap, especially when only for animal consumption, although I'm not sure there was actually any difference in consideration in that era. One can't allow the standards of today to fall into historic consideration without actual evidence."

Ah, my dear דוב הקפטן,

I apologize for being unclear in my meaning when I said cost of fodder; I was including the cost of transporting the feed to the animal’s location.

[Cardinal Ape]

An interesting idea. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "one turn reserve" though. Currently every unit, AFAIK, can always carry 2 turns worth of GS.

As far as I know there is no unit that carries less than two turns of GS. However, there are a few that I can remember off hand that can carry more than two turns worth, most of which fall into the light troop category.

The appetite suppressing coffee grinders can carry three turns; go go Gatling guns! Light infantry and sharpshooters carry three turns worth, so can the southern braves with Stand Waite. Partisans, bushwhackers, and rangers can carry four turns. I'm sure you remember about the support units that carry 20 turns worth. I think pontoon brigades carry more too.

Here is a fun fact: No unit can hold a candle to the foraging abilities of the braves that fight for Little Crow. These two elite bands carry zero turns worth of GS, that's right: zero turns. These guys don't actually consume GS, nor do they consume ammo, they pick bullets off of trees and they eat 'em too. Their horses must be made of clouds... strange it is.

Also, as I stated previously, one would also still be faced with the issue of cavalry units carrying a huge number of GS, which in current game terms can be consumed equally by man and animal, which is illogical.

Oh, I just had an idea, but I'd have to look into how it would work. What if cavalry carried 1 1/2 turns of GS?

In the model files I noticed this entry: ShareSupply = 1

Have you ever tried messing around with that? I Haven't. Maybe it prevents a unit from sharing its GS with others? It might be worth a check.


--

One thing I found really interesting in that article linked by GF is that a shortage of wagons, not horses or supplies, was a major factor. Sure, its obvious, but its that specific tidbit about how a good number of wagons were confiscated for other uses after they unloaded their supplies, not that they simply broke down. It really makes we wish that supply wagons were much harder to maintain. Hell, one could use that tidbit as justification to make a random event, 'Ambulances for the Wounded', it could eliminate supply wagon elements in regions with wounded troops, double the chance if a medic is not present. That's one way to make players buy more supply chits; make them vanish into thin air - not very elegant though.

[pgr]

Bit of a late reply. When I say two turn supply, I'm talking about the inherent reserves of in game units being 2 full turns before they would have to start foraging. This corresponds to 30 days, where as formations of the era generally could only carry a maximum of about 10-15 days of supply's. So having units only able to carry 1 turn worth of supplies (unless accompanied by wagons) before having to forage would be a bit more accurate.

Of course there is an argument to be made that game turns should be reduced to 7 days. That would make the two turn supply thing be about 15 days (plus I think it would make play more dynamic. Offensive movements couldn't be finished in 1 turn, defenders can react, people can do feints etc.)

[hanny1]

Honestly I don't know enough about the details of the economies of the North and South to say all too much about it, but it could be done better. Biggest Room in Existence <=∞> Room For Improvement

have you read, use and manufacture of field artillery in the confederacy by Justin stanage?

[hanny1]

Why Fodder? If you simply increase the amount of GS for example a cavalry unit requires per turn, plus their capacity to carry GS so that they can remain in the field the same number of turns without picking up additional GS, 2 turns, you will make them into small fast supply units.

I did a quick and dirty mod to up GS consumption for units with horses a while back (viewtopic.php?f=340&t=38436&hilit=horses+eat). I based it off of historical figures for the relative weight of animal and human rations (its something crazy like 4-5 pounds per man per day but 24 pounds per horse) and limited a unit's ability to carry supplies to a one turn reserve (again because of the consumption of draft animals 10-15 days was the limit of what a force could carry before having to be resupplied or forage off the land).

I also played a bit with supply production (nerving town GS production and boosting GS production for farm structures)

I would of course love opinions about it

show me the maths, of what it took to maintain a large force for 10 to 15 days without forage or supply.