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Hi guys,

So it's early April 1862, and Farragut has slipped past forts St. Philip and Jackson, and deposited John Fremont and his division sized invasion force into the coastal province just SE of the city of New Orleans. Farragut was congratulated on his accomplishment and promoted.

As things stand, I have Farragut in the river sector just below N.O. with USS Hartford and 6 other Steam Frigates, along with 8 or so transports. I'm able to see that in N.O. there is about a division's worth of Rebel brigades and garrison troops. Btw, I wasn't sure whether selecting "Long range unload" would create a default path to N.O. all the way from New York City, so I manually created a path to the Gulf, and then selected the long range unload the turn before it occurred. Was that the correct process?

Now, onto my questions:

1. Can I use Farragut's fleet to capture N.O., the way he did in the real war? If not, how do I select N.O. for naval bombardment?

2. Fremont's invasion force has just landed and they are at ~50 cohesion. Can I afford to wait for that cohesion to improve before I try to capture N.O.?

3. Does Fremont's invasion force gain any supply via the sea as long as it's on a coastal region? He does have multiple wagons of supply with him.

4. Does any and all free space remaining on the transports constitute supply and get off loaded with the landing force? I know that the landing force took up only about 30% of the transport capacity of the fleet.


I'm hesitant in trying to capture N.O. with Fremont's force right now until it's been reinforced, due to the size of the forces that I can see in N.O. right now. The defenders seem to be equal to my strength, if not a little more powerful. But if I can use Farragut's fleet to help bombard the defenders, then I'm going to give it a go.

If Farragut's fleet can't make N.O. surrender like it did in the real war, then I'm afraid that I may have been afflicted with a case of wishful thinking.

Slick Wilhelm wrote:Hi guys,

So it's early April 1862, and Farragut has slipped past forts St. Philip and Jackson, and deposited John Fremont and his division sized invasion force into the coastal province just SE of the city of New Orleans. Farragut was congratulated on his accomplishment and promoted.

As things stand, I have Farragut in the river sector just below N.O. with USS Hartford and 6 other Steam Frigates, along with 8 or so transports. I'm able to see that in N.O. there is about a division's worth of Rebel brigades and garrison troops.

Opps

Slick Wilhelm wrote:Btw, I wasn't sure whether selecting "Long range unload" would create a default path to N.O. all the way from New York City, so I manually created a path to the Gulf, and then selected the long range unload the turn before it occurred. Was that the correct process?

Wait just a minute there, this is really your first question, you can't fool me oke:

The 'Distant Unload' SO works like this. You click the button and then select a land region, which will then start to blink in dark blue. That's your Distant Unload target region. As soon as your transporting fleet becomes adjacent to that region, even if that fleet is plotted to move further, it will stop and start to unload its troops into the target region, which takes 5 days. Note: there is a distinct combat disadvantage to invading onto enemy forces with the Distant Unload SO compared to using the Drag-n-Drop™ method, which you can only do if your fleet starts the turn adjacent to the target region.

Distant Unload does not plot your fleets move.

Slick Wilhelm wrote:Now, onto my questions:

Or so you say

Slick Wilhelm wrote:1. Can I use Farragut's fleet to capture N.O., the way he did in the real war?

You have really earned your name Mr. Slick Wilhelm. That's two question, not one
Yes, Farragut's fleet can, if the situation is the same as historical; in other words, New Orleans is abandoned. Then you play the Land Sailors RGD and capture N.O. Simple as that

Slick Wilhelm wrote:If not, how do I select N.O. for naval bombardment?

You don't actually target N.O. for bombardment, you set you fleet to bombard, and it will bombard an eligible region adjacent, or which becomes adjacent to it for as long as the Bombardment SO button is pressed.

If N.O. has fortifications with artillery, they must always try to bombard you if you try to pass, but if you only sail into an adjacent water region, if you do not bombard, they cannot bombard you either. But if you are adjacent and have the Bombard SO button pressed, then the both of you will bombard each other.

Slick Wilhelm wrote:2. Fremont's invasion force has just landed and they are at ~50 cohesion. Can I afford to wait for that cohesion to improve before I try to capture N.O.?

I hope Fremont has brought a supply unit with him, otherwise he wont draw as much supply from the adjacent fleet

If all the CS troops are inside N.O., and none are in the field, you can march onto N.O. and besiege the city. Then you can sit on top of N.O. and recover cohesion, although not as quickly as in a friendly region, where you are not besieging. This way, if the NO garrison wants to fight, they will have to attack you, which may give you and advantage.

How long your supplies will hold out you can find out by selecting each stack. When the stack is selected the stack detail panel will open in the lower right corner. Directly below the activation envelope, is the supply information icon (a tent with a box underneath it, or a soup kettle, or what ever :neener . The tool-tip will tell you how much supply that stack has on hand, how much it uses each turn, and for how many turns that supply will last. Since Fremont's stack is drawing--I hope --supplies from the fleet, you will have to calculate out how long the supply will actually last. Then you can decide how much time you have.

Of course, if Fremont isn't strong enough to take NO, you might look for a close-by location which is not so well protected with for example an harbor, which would work well as a supply base, like a nearby fort *cough*cough*Pike*cough*St. Philips*COUGH*Jackson*COUGH*HACK*COUGH*

Slick Wilhelm wrote:3. Does Fremont's invasion force gain any supply via the sea as long as it's on a coastal region? He does have multiple wagons of supply with him.

hmmm, I seem to remember reading that while the fleet is in a coastal region supply an adjacent land stack that it can receive supplies though the Naval Transport Pool, but I can't remember actually having done it.

Slick Wilhelm wrote:4. Does any and all free space remaining on the transports constitute supply and get off loaded with the landing force? I know that the landing force took up only about 30% of the transport capacity of the fleet.

Transportation and Supply capacity are a strange thing, like quantum physics. The transported troops and supplies occupy the same space without either actually take any space away from the other So if you have 10 transport ships, each with the capacity to carry 10 GS supply points and 10 Ammo supply points, each can additionally carry 10 weight point in land units, all at the same time

Slick Wilhelm wrote:I'm hesitant in trying to capture N.O. with Fremont's force right now until it's been reinforced, due to the size of the forces that I can see in N.O. right now. The defenders seem to be equal to my strength, if not a little more powerful. But if I can use Farragut's fleet to help bombard the defenders, then I'm going to give it a go.

As stated, that will depend on the situation if NO. If there is not fort and they are not set to bombard, the the troops are considered to be deployed away from the river and cannot be targeted by bombardment.

Slick Wilhelm wrote:If Farragut's fleet can't make N.O. surrender like it did in the real war, then I'm afraid that I may have been afflicted with a case of wishful thinking.

As above, it depends on where the defenders are and what they are. Militia doesn't stand up will to a siege, but only if you have a lot of offensive artillery. Siege guns and engineers are also very advantageous in a siege. Without more information, I can't say any more than that.

Captain_Orso wrote:
Wait just a minute there, this is really your first question, you can't fool me oke:

Well, I always like to preface my questions with a question.

Yes, Farragut's fleet can, if the situation is the same as historical]

Alright, I'm trying to get the acronyms down, so is the "Land Sailors RGD" the cards that are played via F12? Since N.O. definitely seems to be NOT abandoned, I'll set Farragut's fleet to bombard, then move it to the river region directly adjacent N.O., and hope that the defending troops are in the city itself, or in a fort.

I hope Fremont has brought a supply unit with him, otherwise he wont draw as much supply from the adjacent fleet!

He did bring three transport wagon units with him, so from your statement I assume that means that the fleet acts as a depot and the wagons pull supply from the transport ships of the fleet. Right?

Of course, if Fremont isn't strong enough to take NO, you might look for a close-by location which is not so well protected with for example an harbor, which would work well as a supply base, like a nearby fort *cough*cough*Pike*cough*St. Philips*COUGH*Jackson*COUGH*HACK*COUGH*

Excellent idea! So as long as I have control of a port, the port draws supply towards it just as a city/depot would. Got it.

If the worst happens, and I decide to bravely run away from a fight at N.O....can I reembark my troops onto the transports even without controlling a port? Is it possible to do a Dunkirk-esque re-embarkation?

Slick Wilhelm wrote:Alright, I'm trying to get the acronyms down, so is the "Land Sailors RGD" the cards that are played via F12?

RGD = Regional Decision, and yes, it refers to the cards under <F12>.
SO = Special Orders. I refers to the buttons above the Stack Panel, which appears at the bottom of the map when you click on a stack.

Slick Wilhelm wrote:Since N.O. definitely seems to be NOT abandoned, I'll set Farragut's fleet to bombard, then move it to the river region directly adjacent N.O., and hope that the defending troops are in the city itself, or in a fort.

You would see if there were a fort or redoubt. If the city sprite (the graphics) is covered by units,
- those units are obviously outside the city,
- you can use the <Ctrl><1>-<4> filters to remove units from the map so that you can look underneath them. Try them out to see which one you need. <Ctrl><4> removed all units from the map, except for the selected stack, if any.

Slick Wilhelm wrote:He did bring three transport wagon units with him, so from your statement I assume that means that the fleet acts as a depot and the wagons pull supply from the transport ships of the fleet. Right?

There you go . As long as Farragut's fleet is adjacent to Fremont, Fremont will draw supplies from Farragut.

Slick Wilhelm wrote:Excellent idea! So as long as I have control of a port, the port draws supply towards it just as a city/depot would. Got it.

If the worst happens, and I decide to bravely run away from a fight at N.O....can I reembark my troops onto the transports even without controlling a port? Is it possible to do a Dunkirk-esque re-embarkation?

Yup, just Drag-n-Drop™ the stack onto the fleet. It takes 5 days to embark. While the troops are embarking, the fleet will not move, but you can plot a move with the fleet at the same time, and the move will commence once all the troops are embarked.

Personally, I never attack NO directly. I always take Fort Pike first, or if Fort Pike has been reinforced, Fort St. Philip.

BTW brigs work well as scouting units to check the situation before committing to an invasion. I like to post brigs outside the Mobile Bay exit, near Fort Pike and at the Mississippi mouth, to keep an eye on what southern shipping is doing and have some idea of what's going on in those forts.

In real life, Farragut took NO by audacious bravado. This was aided immensely by the shortsighted incompetence of the city's defense. The forts did not employ a chain across the mouth of the Mississippi that would delay an invasion force while under the fire of their cannon. The local commander was more concerned with an invasion from several hundred miles to the north and not from several dozen miles away to the south.

Here are some points for your invasion to consider.

-What happens if your fleet bombards and then gets sunk?

-Can you tell how much artillery is in New Orleans?

-The icon for the defense force may give you a clue as to the level of entrenchment. Entrenched artillery is more accurate and perhaps good enough to sink your Frigates.

-Without an escort, your transports would then be at the mercy of any CSA naval force. Even a group of CSA brigs from the Gulf blockade box could spell doom for transports alone.

-The primary weakness of an amphibious assault is that your force does not have a retreat path over land. If Fremont's Division chooses to withdraw from a battle, then it will be annihilated to the last man.

So, you absolutely need to secure your transports. Your Division is a "whale on a beach". You do not seem to have enough strength to assault NO. CSA reinforcements can get to NO by rail much sooner than you can get reinforced from NYC. You should remove your force immediately and fight again another day. Good luck!

Better, more thorough answers are above.



What I would do- use that strong division to capture something in the area, which will supply the reinforcements that will eventually capture New Orleans later. I prefer the fort to the Northeast of NO, but where your troops are now you may want to head southwest to get that level 1 town with a port, or reload the transports and take the forts at the mouth of the river.

And send a better general with the reinforcements. Freemont sucks.

Jeez GF, are you having a bad day?

If NO has coastal artillery--from god knows where--of course it would be ill advised to bombard. It is even more so ill advised to bombard the forts, which definitely do have coastal artillery.

But there is no way to see if there are any coastal guns in NO--without cheating--, but it is also so highly unlikely the South built coastal artillery for NO, there's hardly a point to even mention it in such a light, unless you're just trying to be dramatic.

If Fremont loses a battle and retreats, he will retreat within the region, and not be just annihilated to the last man. *sheesh*

So why should SW be worried about being attacked? From his assessment the CS would have to empty NO to attack Fremont at 1-1 odds in men and material. But to even get at him they have to enter a swamp. At the very best it would take about 16 days for a CS force to move into Fremont's region to attack. With artillery and cavalry and supply wagons, more likely 24 day, if they're very lucky. And by then they will have lost considerable cohesion and be attacking vs a rested force which has entrenched at least some. Sounds like a disaster of an attack at 1-1 odds (in size, not power) at the best.

Slick Wilhelm made some misjudgments. Painting the situation as only black doesn't help. From his description, the best thing he can do is -anything else than what he originally planned-. Besides that, he still has lots of options open.

Advice using realistic probabilities of outcomes will go a lot further in teaching somebody how to assess a situation than panicky outbursts that only point out the absolute worst possible outcomes.

The great thing about advice is that he doesn't have to take mine.

It is possible to gauge the level of entrenchment from the defending unit icon. I recall that in ACW, if cannon were present in the sandbagged icon, well, then cannon were present. Perhaps this is no longer the case. It is also possible to get unit ID's from the enemy stack if he has enough MC, cavalry or land detection cabability from the ships. Loose artillery batteries might be revealed. If this doesn't seem to be the case, then a blind attack is not on my list of advice.

I realise that the rules were nurfed to allow defeated armies to reteat from a disaster rather than be stuck. However, I still believe that an army without a retreat path gets whacked. Perhaps I have misunderstood this, Herr Hauptmann?

Rod Smart wrote:Better, more thorough answers are above.



What I would do- use that strong division to capture something in the area, which will supply the reinforcements that will eventually capture New Orleans later. I prefer the fort to the Northeast of NO, but where your troops are now you may want to head southwest to get that level 1 town with a port, or reload the transports and take the forts at the mouth of the river.

And send a better general with the reinforcements. Freemont sucks.

Agreed, Rod. I was thinking about reembarking the troops and turning this from an invasion of NO to a relief expedition of that fort in the panhandle of Florida that has been under siege for so long. Fort Whipple? I can't recall the name right now off the top of my head, but that may be a viable option.

Actually, as Captain_Orso has pointed out, I seem to have a few decent options right now, with capturing NO not being one of them. That being said, I might gamble and attempt the capture of NO anyways. This is my first attempt at playing the full Civil War campaign, so it's mostly a learning game for me.

Gray Fox wrote:It is possible to gauge the level of entrenchment from the defending unit icon. I recall that in ACW, if cannon were present in the sandbagged icon, well, then cannon were present. Perhaps this is no longer the case. It is also possible to get unit ID's from the enemy stack if he has enough MC, cavalry or land detection cabability from the ships. Loose artillery batteries might be revealed. If this doesn't seem to be the case, then a blind attack is not on my list of advice.

I will take a close look again tonight, Gray Fox. I don't believe I saw any cannon icons when I looked last night, but I was tired and I may have missed them. The troops I can see listed so far are Inf. brigades, with no arty units listed. I know that I've seen other enemy stacks listed as having inf and arty when present, so maybe I'll get lucky. At any rate, I'm still pondering what I'm going to do. I may just reembark and go elsewhere looking for something less defended to take. It might be interesting to have a base of operations on the gulf, with which to threaten Mobile and N.O. with.

I admire your resoluteness to assault NO. As Patton said, "A good plan right now, violently executed, beats a great plan in two weeks."

P.S. A good way to insure that your means meet your goals is to get eyes on your target. It's called Intelligence Preparation of the Battlefield (IPB) or simply Know Your Foe. Brigs in an adjacent sea region can perhaps detect an entrenched enemy. Check the enemy icon against your own entrenched units to see what level it might be. Levels 5-8 only happen when artillery are present. Maybe you can land a small cavalry force or use partisans to get more info. It is possible not only to see the power number of the whole force, but also which individual units are present and their strength. The more you don't have to gamble, the better prepared you'll be. The enemy will thank you for not giving 100%. Good luck!

Gray Fox wrote:The great thing about advice is that he doesn't have to take mine.

It is possible to gauge the level of entrenchment from the defending unit icon. I recall that in ACW, if cannon were present in the sandbagged icon, well, then cannon were present. Perhaps this is no longer the case. It is also possible to get unit ID's from the enemy stack if he has enough MC, cavalry or land detection cabability from the ships. Loose artillery batteries might be revealed. If this doesn't seem to be the case, then a blind attack is not on my list of advice.

I realise that the rules were nurfed to allow defeated armies to reteat from a disaster rather than be stuck. However, I still believe that an army without a retreat path gets whacked. Perhaps I have misunderstood this, Herr Hauptmann?

The problems with retreat we had before it was 'nurfed', as you call it, were two fold.

1. When entering a region with <5 MC a stack automatically went to OP, which was fine. But through battle, if it lost, it also lost all of its MC. Thus the next turn it was automatically forced to go to OP again, even if it was trying to leave the region. Again it would attack, and again lost. This circle of events could not be broken and made little sense. The fix was that once a stack entered a region and changed to OP, it afterwards, regardless of posture, maintains a minimum of 5 MC, and thus is not forced to attack again.

2. If a stack attacked in a region, and lost, the defending force, regardless of their status, could not counter-attack within the same region, especially if the attacking force routed out of the battle region. The solution was to have the stack which lost the initial battle retreat to within the region. This gives the formerly defending force the opportunity to change its posture and attack.

I personally find what we have now to be a great improvement over the former way things worked. Of course your mileage may very.

Good point about the cannons on the entrenchment sprite. Unfortunately it gives you no ideal of how much artillery is present, nor of what kind.

Yes, with enough detection value, you will get unit names displayed. But unit names are generally shared within a state of origin. So 'Starke's Bde.' from Louisiana could consist of 2 infantry regiments or 5 infantry, a cavalry and an artillery. And if there's a division, well it could contain anything.

I personally think that if the enemy, whether in a fort or not, has artillery poised to bombard, an adjacent naval force should be able to see how much and of what kind if they can be detected. You generally had a good idea of what you were going up against when attacking fixed positions.

Slick Wilhelm wrote:Agreed, Rod. I was thinking about reembarking the troops and turning this from an invasion of NO to a relief expedition of that fort in the panhandle of Florida that has been under siege for so long. Fort Whipple? I can't recall the name right now off the top of my head, but that may be a viable option.

Actually, as Captain_Orso has pointed out, I seem to have a few decent options right now, with capturing NO not being one of them. That being said, I might gamble and attempt the capture of NO anyways. This is my first attempt at playing the full Civil War campaign, so it's mostly a learning game for me.

You can have a lot of fun with an 800 power division and a complement of transports.

Fort busting, raiding Texas, resupplying Fort Pickens and fooling around in Florida.




Have fun

Rod Smart wrote:You can have a lot of fun with an 800 power division and a complement of transports.

Fort busting, raiding Texas, resupplying Fort Pickens and fooling around in Florida.




Have fun

Yes, I think it was Fort Pickens that I was referring to in my previous post. Whatever I do, maybe I'll get lucky and Fremont will get killed and I'll be able to have someone better form an army. In fact, I'm tempted to send Halleck and McClellan on suicide missions just to get rid of them.

Slick Wilhelm,

If you can tell just by looking that a direct assault will fail, unfortunately bombarding will be enough to tip the battle in your favor, even if they do not have guns. As I understand it, (and I may be wrong, I don't usually bombard much) if there are not sufficiently emplaced guns (of any kind, not just coastal artillery) to return fire, your ships only bombard combat troops in support of an actual battle by your ground forces. In other words, you cannot "soften them up" with naval bombardment for a few turns. If there are guns there, but no actual battle, you bombard each other in the same way you would if you were trying to run past them, but don't interact with land forces otherwise. Even if I am wrong about the exact mechanics, I can say with confidence that the Bombard special order is not going to be decisive enough to carry the city if you are evenly matched, and may cost a lot of expensive hits to your fleet.

If your stack is primarily made up of the Ft Pickens contingent, it will usually not be sufficient on its own to take New Orleans unless your opponent fails to build a reasonable defense force. New Orleans only gets a 4 element brigade of scripted militia, which is not quite enough to prevent a New Orleans rush on its own, and has to be beefed up through actual spending. There is a limit to how much the CSA can spare for New Orleans, and human players may or may not commit enough to hold you off, especially if you shipped extra troops into the theater at the earliest opportunity. The AI will usually put together a force that can hold off the Ft Pickens crowd but not necessarily a stronger force.

You might have some luck by threatening strategic targets nearby to force them out of their entrenchments and into the field where they can be met on better terms. Taking Baton Rouge, for example, will likley provoke an AI reaction, which is when it often makes tactical mistakes.

Securing a supply base and establishing MC along a future attack axis into the city would be a good use of the Ft. Pickens forces as they wait for more troops to arrive from the East Coast. As Orso suggested, Ft. Pike is ideal. In general for an amphibious invasion you want to target a rail connected harbor with a depot (built yourself if necessary) to allow that sweet, sweet Ocean supply to flow. Ft. Pike works great because it is adjacent (via water crossing) to New Orleans, so troops and supplies can get there in one turn even without rail. Forts allow a pretty large amount of supply to flow on their own, coastal forts already have harbors, and a depot made with one of your transports will seal the deal. Berwick is another good staging point, the direct rail connection to New Orleans will move all the supply you need. Rail control along the final attack path is critical so that you do not have to march large formations through multiple regions of swampy terrain just to approach the city (again, Ft. Pike is adjacent, so you don't have to worry about all that). Make sure you bring a leader with a good strategic rating, as moving in this area is difficult enough without inactivity or becoming fixed in place.

If you wanted to change tacks, and do something else with your Gulf Army, then Mobile is usually lightly defended and a strategic city, while Pensacola is a fantastic gateway to the soft underbelly of the Confederacy with a direct path to Atlanta. Fort busting is almost always worthwhile. The Union AI likes to go after Texas if New Orleans is well defended, but except for Matagorda (Cotton Bale money) I never bother to oppose them because I don't think east Texas is worth either attacking or defending.

A couple of side points: When you travel by transport you lose cohesion, so on top of the direct combat penalties from amphibious attacks your men will not be in proper fighting condition if they arrive by ship. Better to land somewhere nearby to recover and then march to the attack, unless they are facing only token resistance. Also, too much activity in the area before you can bring a decisive formation to bear on a strategic or objective city will prompt the AI to build larger defenses, so you may not want to tip your hand too early.

[quote="Captain_Orso"]I personally find what we have now to be a great improvement over the former way things worked. Of course your mileage may very.
[quote]

So is the following no longer the case?

http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Retreat_and_Routing

"Each stack check separately for a retreat, but if some already retreated, then the others get a bonus. Routing is always a success. Finally, there is an auto-retreat threshold, if the losses reach a certain %, then retreat ensue at the beginning of the next round, automatically.

NOTE: As retreat (or routing) is only checked at the start of each round, then a force can still be annihilated or suffers extremely high losses far above the auto-retreat threshold, if the opposing side has a
devastating firepower compared to the resistance of the retreating stack." (my italics)

and

"A Force that is surrounded by enemy controlled regions (i.e. all adjacent regions are at least 95% enemy-controlled) will never attempt to withdraw from battle.
Forces conducting an Amphibious Assault may not withdraw."

From battlelogs I've read, after your force takes 20% casualties it routs, even if set to Hold At All Cost. A force that withdraws gets to stay in the region by the new rule. However, a routing force must retreat from the region to a controlled region, or perish.

Gray Fox wrote:

Captain_Orso wrote:I personally find what we have now to be a great improvement over the former way things worked. Of course your mileage may very.

So is the following no longer the case?

http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Retreat_and_Routing

"Each stack check separately for a retreat, but if some already retreated, then the others get a bonus. Routing is always a success. Finally, there is an auto-retreat threshold, if the losses reach a certain %, then retreat ensue at the beginning of the next round, automatically.

NOTE: As retreat (or routing) is only checked at the start of each round, then a force can still be annihilated or suffers extremely high losses far above the auto-retreat threshold, if the opposing side has a
devastating firepower compared to the resistance of the retreating stack." (my italics)

and

"A Force that is surrounded by enemy controlled regions (i.e. all adjacent regions are at least 95% enemy-controlled) will never attempt to withdraw from battle.
Forces conducting an Amphibious Assault may not withdraw."

From battlelogs I've read, after your force takes 20% casualties it routs, even if set to Hold At All Cost. A force that withdraws gets to stay in the region by the new rule. However, a routing force must retreat from the region to a controlled region, or perish.

I believe what has mainly changed is this:

Successful Withdrawal from Battle

A Force that passes a Withdrawal check is considered to immediately withdraw from the battle—thus ending the battle before the start of the upcoming combat round. A Force that withdraws from battle is moved to a friendly-controlled adjacent region on the game map. If the Force has a ‘Seek Shelter’ Special Order and there is an unbesieged structure in the region where the battle took place, the Force is moved into the structure. Depending upon the level of enemy control, a withdrawing Force may be forced into another battle in the region it withdrew to.

You should note that the annihilation is due to "the opposing side has a devastating firepower compared to the resistance of the retreating stack" and not because of a failure to leave the region.

Long before "the nurfing " (sounds like an '80's horror film ) "A Force that is surrounded by enemy controlled regions (i.e. all adjacent regions are at least 95% enemy-controlled) will never attempt to withdraw from battle" was removed, because of many complaints from many very experienced players, which went on over a long period of time. The argument was that not being able to retreat into an empty region, just because you hadn't previously gained MC in that region made no sense. To some extent this is logical. A force, given the choice between near certain destruction and retreat into the unknown might well chose the latter.

Later it was reinstated because of issues of CS stacks invading the North and then retreating from battle to battle, for example from Pittsburgh all the way up to Eire and beyond, because a retreat is always started immediately on retreating stack disengaged from the battle, while the attacker sits on his butt and watches the enemy slip away.

This has a lot to do with the way the Intercept rules work and not being able to target an enemy stack for interception which is in the same region as your own stack. Interception is a one-shot deal. Once the targeted enemy stack has been intercepted and a battle in which shots are actually fired has ensued, the intercept orders are canceled. Therefore if a minor skirmish occurrs, the intercepting stack stops moving and watches the retreating stack march away, which gives the retreating stack many days of a head start on escaping.

Reinstating the restriction on retreating into an enemy controlled regions ( >=95% enemy MC) was deemed important to fix this situation with wild retreats across the Ohio farmlands, and it was also considered part of the invaders responsibility to maintain a line of communications (MC) back into his own territory, and thus require the invading player to operate in a more logical and historical fashion.

Currently, once a stack is forced to retreat from battle it retreats within the region, and during that turn no further battles can take place between those two stacks. The retreating stack cannot escape so easily, but cannot be re-targeted for interception which as always been the case, but now his choices of regions in which to retreat during the next turn are restricted to accessible (through MC) regions.

BTW I did some testing of Hold-at-all-Costs vs an invading force at one time. I don't know if the defending forces never attempted to retreat, but at about 3- or 4-1 odds, the defending force was generally wiped out if in HaaC, except for some cases of a few cannons of one battery being left. If the defending stack was not on HaaC they often retreated before a shot was fired, or took some moderate damage in battle and left the region; this was before "the nurfing "

ArmChairGeneral wrote:Slick Wilhelm,

If you can tell just by looking that a direct assault will fail, unfortunately bombarding will be enough to tip the battle in your favor, even if they do not have guns. As I understand it, (and I may be wrong, I don't usually bombard much) if there are not sufficiently emplaced guns (of any kind, not just coastal artillery) to return fire, your ships only bombard combat troops in support of an actual battle by your ground forces. In other words, you cannot "soften them up" with naval bombardment for a few turns. If there are guns there, but no actual battle, you bombard each other in the same way you would if you were trying to run past them, but don't interact with land forces otherwise. Even if I am wrong about the exact mechanics, I can say with confidence that the Bombard special order is not going to be decisive enough to carry the city if you are evenly matched, and may cost a lot of expensive hits to your fleet.

If your stack is primarily made up of the Ft Pickens contingent, it will usually not be sufficient on its own to take New Orleans unless your opponent fails to build a reasonable defense force. New Orleans only gets a 4 element brigade of scripted militia, which is not quite enough to prevent a New Orleans rush on its own, and has to be beefed up through actual spending. There is a limit to how much the CSA can spare for New Orleans, and human players may or may not commit enough to hold you off, especially if you shipped extra troops into the theater at the earliest opportunity. The AI will usually put together a force that can hold off the Ft Pickens crowd but not necessarily a stronger force.

You might have some luck by threatening strategic targets nearby to force them out of their entrenchments and into the field where they can be met on better terms. Taking Baton Rouge, for example, will likley provoke an AI reaction, which is when it often makes tactical mistakes.

Securing a supply base and establishing MC along a future attack axis into the city would be a good use of the Ft. Pickens forces as they wait for more troops to arrive from the East Coast. As Orso suggested, Ft. Pike is ideal. In general for an amphibious invasion you want to target a rail connected harbor with a depot (built yourself if necessary) to allow that sweet, sweet Ocean supply to flow. Ft. Pike works great because it is adjacent (via water crossing) to New Orleans, so troops and supplies can get there in one turn even without rail. Forts allow a pretty large amount of supply to flow on their own, coastal forts already have harbors, and a depot made with one of your transports will seal the deal. Berwick is another good staging point, the direct rail connection to New Orleans will move all the supply you need. Rail control along the final attack path is critical so that you do not have to march large formations through multiple regions of swampy terrain just to approach the city (again, Ft. Pike is adjacent, so you don't have to worry about all that). Make sure you bring a leader with a good strategic rating, as moving in this area is difficult enough without inactivity or becoming fixed in place.

If you wanted to change tacks, and do something else with your Gulf Army, then Mobile is usually lightly defended and a strategic city, while Pensacola is a fantastic gateway to the soft underbelly of the Confederacy with a direct path to Atlanta. Fort busting is almost always worthwhile. The Union AI likes to go after Texas if New Orleans is well defended, but except for Matagorda (Cotton Bale money) I never bother to oppose them because I don't think east Texas is worth either attacking or defending.

A couple of side points: When you travel by transport you lose cohesion, so on top of the direct combat penalties from amphibious attacks your men will not be in proper fighting condition if they arrive by ship. Better to land somewhere nearby to recover and then march to the attack, unless they are facing only token resistance. Also, too much activity in the area before you can bring a decisive formation to bear on a strategic or objective city will prompt the AI to build larger defenses, so you may not want to tip your hand too early.

Many thanks, ArmChairGeneral! Lots of good advice in your reply. Btw, just call me Slick. We're all friends here.


Fremont's Army was created in New York City, and does not contain any of the Fort Pickens garrison(which is currently under siege, and I need to do something about that). Your speculation about me attempting to "soften up" New Orleans by bombardment is exactly what I was planning. So, if that isn't going to buy me anything, then the jig is up. I'm currently resting both Farragut's fleet and Fremont's Army for a turn on green/green to get their cohesion back up to 100%.

I think it's time to reembark and pay a visit to Fort Pike. I checked Mobile last night, and I was able to see that the CSS Mississippi was sitting in port! I assume this is a river ironclad, so I think I'll pass. At this point I've got it narrowed down to either Fort Pike or Pensacola.

Thanks Captain!

To further demonstrate the value of a recon, this is what might be known of NO with a brig unit enroute:

[ATTACH]35414[/ATTACH]

Without much metagaming, one can assume that the two blue dots under the city icon are the ironclads that are being constructed. The structures in NO are also revealed. Little more can be seen.

[ATTACH]35415[/ATTACH]

The brig naval unit reveals that a force is entrenched in the region. The entrenchment is level 3 or 4. It consists of a one star, with an unknown "regular" unit, a militia unit and a supply unit.

[ATTACH]35416[/ATTACH]

Here two additional brig units carrying a balloon reveal even more info. The one-star's name is now known and that he commands the 3rd Division and the European militia brigade. The strength stat of these units is also revealed, and that the units are at full hits, supply and cohesion.

[ATTACH]35417[/ATTACH]

In this final example, the CSA player has the units inside the city. This preserves most of the intel on the units.

So a little planning can pay off if you look before you leap.

Yay, aircraft carrier!

That's an informative set of pics, Fox, thanks for taking the time. I was not aware that a) brigs gave that much info about land forces,or b) that balloons work while embarked.

Yes, I'm sure that I'll catch some flak for this innovation (pun intended).

Gray Fox wrote:Yes, I'm sure that I'll catch some flak for this innovation (pun intended).

Ha! Well, that is a bit gamey, Gray Fox, but I'll give you points for creativity.

I got the same information using the "Spy" RGD on New Orleans. I also used the "Marines" RGD to create a couple of Marine regiments next to Farragut's fleet, and I've already issued embarkation orders to Fremont.

The Union did have balloon barges on the Mississippi that Grant used in his campaign around Island 10. Not sure if you could outfit a brig with one, but this is not totally off-base.

Supposedly genius is when you look at something that everyone has looked at and you see something that no one has ever seen.

Now if I can just get my airborne cavalry to work.

Gray Fox, I was stunned by your aircraft carrier; I had no idea brigs could collect so much information.

First pure cannon divisions and now this? Talk about thinking out side the box!

I can't really take credit. I'm just intrinsically awesome.



P.S. Before we rewrite the manual, the balloon unit isn't really explained. If it's in a region with a blizzard, you still get the LOS bonus, even though I can't imagine how a hot air balloon would stay hot. It also works in a region that is windy or rainy or sneezey or dopey. If it is in the stack, it works.

Gray Fox wrote:Thanks Captain!

Much obliged

Gray Fox wrote:8<
[ATTACH]35416[/ATTACH]

Here two additional brig units carrying a balloon reveal even more info. The one-star's name is now known and that he commands the 3rd Division and the European militia brigade. The strength stat of these units is also revealed, and that the units are at full hits, supply and cohesion.
8<

Wow, that is the most innovative combination of units I've seen

Danke viel mal!

P.S. For traditionalists, a brig with an early cavalry element may do just as well.

[ATTACH]35429[/ATTACH]

I invested a significant amount of time and manpower to surrounding the rebs' Clarksville Force with Federal 100% MC with a brigade or 2 in each county. When I finally sent in the regulars, the Clarksville Force retreated after a brief fight, crossing a river and driving off the brigade posted to the west. Eventually I just let them starve. But it seemed like the retreat rule wasn't working (1.06).

Regarding New Orleans, it doesn't work historically, and you pretty much have to take Fort Pike first, then march overland. It can have the dreadful effect of allowing the CSA to rail reinforcements to New Orleans before you can march there. For best effect, you probably want to take a hospital and enough generals that someone will be active.

Cromagnonman wrote:I invested a significant amount of time and manpower to surrounding the rebs' Clarksville Force with Federal 100% MC with a brigade or 2 in each county. When I finally sent in the regulars, the Clarksville Force retreated after a brief fight, crossing a river and driving off the brigade posted to the west. Eventually I just let them starve. But it seemed like the retreat rule wasn't working (1.06).

A picture is worth 1k words . A picture, and Saves . BTW gunboats do wonders in blocking a retreat across a river. In fact, they completely prevent it; no 90% chance.

Cromagnonman wrote:Regarding New Orleans, it doesn't work historically, and you pretty much have to take Fort Pike first, then march overland. It can have the dreadful effect of allowing the CSA to rail reinforcements to New Orleans before you can march there. For best effect, you probably want to take a hospital and enough generals that someone will be active.

The historic New Orleans campaign also assumed that sending just enough men to take NO was not enough. Butler had about 10,000 - 12,000 men, more than half of them temporarily 'lent' to him for the task. After taking NO the 'excess' men were returned to the eastern theater.