Apple removes games with Confederate battle flag from iTunes

[minipol]

I don't understand the commotion on flags or in particular the southern flag.
It's the people who commit crimes and a lot of flags might mean different things to different people.
Many countries have committed crimes under their current national flag. Are those flags banned?

Same for the swastika. It's a symbol predating the nazi's, and as such, one might argue it should be allowed if it's not
meant in the sense nazi's where using it. Why ban an ancient symbol because a movement misused it?
Same with the extended arm greeting associated with nazi's. They weren't the first to greet like this.
But if you don't know your history or only parts of it, then you might associate it with the wrong meaning.

People need to think a bit more about this. But in this day and age, everybody immediately has his/her own
opinion formed in a micro second and most of the time void of any (historical) knowledge.
Hooray for twitter and facebook, NOT.
They greatly stimulate this speak-before-you-think mentality.

[Captain_Orso]

I keep thinking thoughts like this but from a different perspective. Thomas Jefferson, to take an easy example, had some ideas that we find repugnant today. If racists had used two dollar bills and nickles instead of the battle flag, we'd be arguing about changing our currency.

I think that slavery and racism as represented by the Confederacy is horrible and that honor, self-reliance, and perseverance (among many other traits) represented by the confederacy is laudable. When I see a picture of Jefferson I am aware of his repugnant traits, but I think more about his great ones. The same is true when I see a picture of some of my less law abiding relatives. When I see Confederate symbols in a national historic site or a historic video game or movie, it is similar - I am aware of the good and the bad and that to many the symbol is meant to represent the good.

The difference, and it is a big difference, is that Confederate symbols became symbols of white supremacy while pictures of Jefferson became symbols of equality. Jefferson's biggest failures may include a part of his life that many of us take to be the most important, his mistress and his children lived as slaves for much or all of their lives. Very few people praise him for those failures and we can safely use him as a symbol of things that make the US great. The Confederacy's biggest failures were just as fundamental in a way. If people did not praise those failures, we could safely choose to use the Confederacy as a symbol of certain things that make the US great. I see all of this hubbub as the cost people with a historical are heritage based interest in the Confederacy must pay because of the use of the confederacy as a symbol of hate.

All that said, I'm not sure what I think should be happening. My gut feeling is that we are being too sensitive, but also that we are too slow to speak out when we see racism and white supremacy in others.

I agree with everything you've said. Very little of your history is simply black and white (no pun intended). Some of the things revered founding fathers did were reprehensible and not all southerners were for slavery. If you delve deeper into the history it is very complex and fascinating.

I don't think people in general are being too sensitive. I feel that many are breathing a sigh of relief that southern politicians are actually taking such steps. I know I was very surprised and happy upon hearing about it. It renewed my confidence in people to overcome their fears and risk taking a chance to reach out to others in a very symbolic gesture.

[Captain_Orso]

I don't understand the commotion on flags or in particular the southern flag.
It's the people who commit crimes and a lot of flags might mean different things to different people.
Many countries have committed crimes under their current national flag. Are those flags banned?

Same for the swastika. It's a symbol predating the nazi's, and as such, one might argue it should be allowed if it's not
meant in the sense nazi's where using it. Why ban an ancient symbol because a movement misused it?
Same with the extended arm greeting associated with nazi's. They weren't the first to greet like this.
But if you don't know your history or only parts of it, then you might associate it with the wrong meaning.

People need to think a bit more about this. But in this day and age, everybody immediately has his/her own
opinion formed in a micro second and most of the time void of any (historical) knowledge.
Hooray for twitter and facebook, NOT.
They greatly stimulate this speak-before-you-think mentality.

The question is always, what is somebody using a symbol to mean. I'm confident in saying that the vast majority of CW reenactors are not doing so to express a believe in slavery or racism. I'm am equally confident in believing that most people who display NAZI swastikas or 'confederate' flags as a political statement are supporting exactly those ideologies which we have come to understand them to represent, fascism and racism.

There are WWII reenactor groups here in Germany, but they are not allowed to wear swastikas. If it were not forbidden by law and I saw it, I'm sure I would be surprised and would want to know if they had a deeper political agenda. If they did not, I would have no issue with them using the swastika. We must always be certain of what we protest and not reactionary. I have played too many games as the Germans during WWII, even the Waffen SS; in fact in some games I prefer to play the Germans .

I can separate the game from the politics and I think this is something everybody should do, but also as tripax said, we must also be vigilant and speak out against injustices in the world. It's the price we pay for freedom and democracy, but I don't think the price is high compared to their loss.

[khbynum]

All that said, I'm not sure what I think should be happening. My gut feeling is that we are being too sensitive, but also that we are too slow to speak out when we see racism and white supremacy in others.

As usual, a thoughtful and literate post, tripax. Please excuse me for only quoting the last line.

When I was a young man I would have reacted vehemently to any attempt to suppress display of the Confederate battle flag, but that was before it was taken over as a symbol of 20th century racism. Now, it disgusts me to see a symbol that hundreds of thousands of young Southern men followed, fought and died for displayed on the bumpers of pickup trucks, bar mirrors and clothing. Most of those young men did not own slaves, but fought for what they believed was their country. Were they racists? Probably, by modern standards, but so were most Northerners.

What to do? If black people find that flag insulting, then it should be removed from public display except at re-enactments (which they are free not to attend) and in historical contexts such as museums and (dare I say it) wargames. I reserve the right to display the Confederate national flag (Stars and Bars) on my own property, as I choose, to honor my ancestors. Most people won't know what it is, anyway, if the wind's not blowing.

As to Jefferson, I don't want people here to think I've changed my stripes. I'll still bend down to pick up a nickel, but not a penny.

[tripax]

Thank you to Captain_orso and khbynum for the kind words. Rereading that last sentence of mine, it is trite and I'm sorry. I guess I wanted to give an opinion and I don't really know what should be done or should have been done. Obviously, I hope civil war games somehow get positive attention as a result of all of this. I doubt racists are going to learn to not be racist because of all of this, but maybe. I think there is less of a chance that people will be less self-righteous because of all of this.

[seathom]

Originally being from Illinois and having no southern ancestors, I admit I am not a fan of the confederate battle flag and it makes me a bit uncomfortable when people fly it on their pick up trucks. I would never generalize that those people are racist because I do not know what is in their hearts as I don't think I've ever talked to one of those people about that subject. I just shrug it off as their right to display a flag. I definitely do not try to judge people from 150 years ago solely by today's standards and any intelligent discussion needs to include the historical perspective of the time.

The same goes for Che Guevarra t-shirts. I see those as repugnant support for a man who had 1000 Cubans murdered because they disagreed with him, but I draw the line at wanting them banned as they may support his leftist ideology and disregard (probably unwittingly) his actions towards political dissent.

I believe you can only change the hearts of people by challenging their belief system, not by banning it. Unfortunately, in America today, my method seems to be losing out as evidenced by people losing jobs over their beliefs, colleges restricting free speech and many other abuses that would never have been so prevalent 30 years ago.

[B0rn_C0nfused]

Originally being from Illinois and having no southern ancestors, I admit I am not a fan of the confederate battle flag and it makes me a bit uncomfortable when people fly it on their pick up trucks. I would never generalize that those people are racist because I do not know what is in their hearts as I don't think I've ever talked to one of those people about that subject. I just shrug it off as their right to display a flag. I definitely do not try to judge people from 150 years ago solely by today's standards and any intelligent discussion needs to include the historical perspective of the time.

The same goes for Che Guevarra t-shirts. I see those as repugnant support for a man who had 1000 Cubans murdered because they disagreed with him, but I draw the line at wanting them banned as they may support his leftist ideology and disregard (probably unwittingly) his actions towards political dissent.

I believe you can only change the hearts of people by challenging their belief system, not by banning it. Unfortunately, in America today, my method seems to be losing out as evidenced by people losing jobs over their beliefs, colleges restricting free speech and many other abuses that would never have been so prevalent 30 years ago.

I would say this pretty much sums up for the most part what I feel about the issue in general.

[GlobalExplorer]

What to do? If black people find that flag insulting, then it should be removed from public display except at re-enactments (which they are free not to attend) and in historical contexts such as museums and (dare I say it) wargames. I reserve the right to display the Confederate national flag (Stars and Bars) on my own property, as I choose, to honor my ancestors. Most people won't know what it is, anyway, if the wind's not blowing.

What if they find the Stars & Stripes insulting? They were slaves for almost 100 years under that banner, too.

[Taillebois]

Concentration camps were used by the Spanish in Cuba and the USA in the Philippines before the British used them - so why do you promote this lie about the British inventing them?

In a sense this is an overreaction from Apple, but it alsor mirrors what many companies have done regarding the Swavitska flag, with the difference that in the latter case it is often based on legislation : Hearts of Iron didn't use the nazi flag because in many european countries it would have made selling the game illegal. There are always mods around for those kind of games.

What I find surprising in the Apple statement is that they talk about using the confederate flag in "offensive or mean-spirited way". Surely a plain wargame wouldn't qualify ? This isn't a FPS where you play a slave owner shooting slaves or some other offensive type of use.

Anyway, as always history is written by the victors, no company editor would suggest banning the union jack, the flag of the state who invented concentration camps during the Boer Wars, or the french flag because of the wars of decolonisation in Algeria or Indochina.

[GlobalExplorer]

I think it was just an example. You cannot take insult with the Confederate flag as a symbol of opression without also taking insult with other major flags for quite similar reasons. I think no one has problems understanding why some people have a problem with the Confederate flag. But that they single out this flag individually is suspicious. Yes, the South had slaves but George Washington was also a slaveholder, does that mean his flag is insulting to Blacks? I think we can all agree that slavery was very bad but it's not the flag of slavery. It was just the flag of the South (that means Black Americans as well, let's not forget that many fought for this flag too), which at the time meant slavery, but not of slavery by itself. Attacking it is an insult to many people in the South (and also meant as such), and also it could lead to more racist motivated murders, not less.

Anyway, I live in a country where there are no restrictions and I see quite a few people here flying the Stars & Bars. Would actually do it myself if it wasn't so incredibly silly. I think a lot of people here sympathize with the South because they offered so much resistance, not on ideological or racist grounds. And yes, it's often pretty naive because people don't see the bad side of it, the KKK and that few fascists without which this wouldn't be such a problem.

[Captain_Orso]

There is one large difference, the Confederacy was created out of one purpose, to perpetuate slavery in those constituent states. If you don't believe this, please read the Confederate Constitution and the declarations of cession of the states themselves. This makes confederate flags in general a symbol of racism and repression.

And I'm not saying that all those who marched under those flags were all racist nor wished to perpetuate slavery, for I know that is not true. Many, especially the common soldiers were fighting for their states, which at the time was for most people far more important than the nation.

It's difficult for modern Americans to understand that. Living in Europe I equate it with the EU countries. The EU is greatly a union of convenience. Trade is mostly free between the countries, no pass controls are made when crossing boarders. But each country still holds dearly onto their own national governments and view what other countries do with some skepticism. Laws passed in the EU Parliament are often bemoaned and accusations are often made that EU laws constantly burden the wealthier nations to much to pay for the short-comings of the poor or less successful nations. Politics are mess, slow and difficult to understand.

Were some conflict to push the EU as a political entity into war --god forbid-- I know people from each country would still greatly view themselves as French, Italian, German, Polish and English, etc. long before they would declare themselves to be European.

Many, many atrocities have been made under the authority of many nations in this world including the USA. Although I cannot speak for them, I would not be surprised if there are many native Americans who feel just as negatively about the US flag.

[GlobalExplorer]

There is one large difference, the Confederacy was created out of one purpose, to perpetuate slavery in those constituent states. If you don't believe this, please read the Confederate Constitution and the declarations of cession of the states themselves. This makes confederate flags in general a symbol of racism and repression.

I can agree that the declaration of secession was built around that major weakness, slavery, and that it eventually doomed the Confederacy. Simply because it was backwards and ignorant on this issue.

But I think it's a much more complex mixture of political and economic protest, caused by the fear that the South would be marginalized in many areas (slavery being the most prominent). I also think the term "racism" didn't even exist when secession was pursued, so we cannot simply impose such terminology over millions of people (Southerners advocating slavery at the time) that those people would not even understand at the time. They believed justified and righteous what they were used to, but they would not have had a clear position of supporting racism or not, simply because they did not even understand the concept. I think that puts the idea of their flag a "symbol of racism and repression" in a somewhat different light.

If it's still not clear what I mean. A person today that raises the symbols of the Confederacy does not do this because he still supports slavery and racism, but also because it's the symbol of his national heritage (which includes slavery as a sad chapter). If it is done in such a way as to advocate racism and slavery etc, it can still be prevented in such cases, but not per se, because that is in itself disrespectful of the complex Southern national identity.

Many, many atrocities have been made under the authority of many nations in this world including the USA. Although I cannot speak for them, I would not be surprised if there are many native Americans who feel just as negatively about the US flag.

That's basically what I meant too. Criticism of the Conferate States of America (and their symbols) is certainly justified, but not of them alone, simply because there is enough evidence of racism land theft etc under (most) other national symbols.

[tripax]

n.b. There are a lot of historical points about the Confederacy that pro-South individuals state as fact that I believe are not widely accepted such as the idea of the black Confederate soldier and saying that a small number of Confederate soldiers had slaves and ignoring that a much larger number of the fathers of these soldiers had slaves. I don't want to go into these points, but I don't want my mild defense of the Confederate battle flag to imply that I accept all of the points raised.

There is one large difference, the Confederacy was created out of one purpose, to perpetuate slavery in those constituent states...

St. George's cross was created as a rallying flag for crusaders in the Holy Lands and subsequently used to perpetuate a tyrannical monarchy as violent and intriguing as a George R. R. Martin saga. I don't want to argue about whether the crusades were evil or the Plantagenets were worse than other Monarchs at the time. But I do believe that the Confederacy has come to mean something more than a short-lived nation born out of fear for the curtailment of slavery.

I believe that one cannot divorce slavery from the Confederacy, not really. But over time the symbols of the Confederacy need not continue to represent slavery. When "Recumbent Lee" was installed at the Lee Chapel at Washington & Lee University in 1883 and when the statue of Lee on Traveler was installed at Gettysburg in 1917, Lee was not a symbol of slavery (I'm far out of my depth and of course had to look up important statues of Lee and their dedications, so excuse me if my information is wrong). This is why I think that the Confederate battle flag need not represent racism, but it does for some (many?) who display it. I don't know all of the reasons; I'm sure everyone is reading about the Dixicrats in the 1940s and I'm far from qualified to contribute to that discussion.

There are more Hindus and Buddhists than Nazis where I live (and probably where you live), but I still feel sick to my stomach when I see swastika graffiti because I know who drew it and what it represents to them.

Today it is reasonable to look at statues of Lee with awe and respect. It is reasonable if slightly revisionist to look at the St. George's flag the same way. Similarly it is reasonable to look on contextually appropriate representations of the svastika and the Confederate Battle Flag with respect. But because we look on those who have used the latter two in the 1930s and 1940s and since as symbols of hatred with such revulsion and because the sting of that revulsion is still with us today, I think it is reasonable for society to mis-trust there public display in most contexts. If video games have to use another Confederate flag in civil war games and the Iron Cross in WWII games, I think I can understand.

[DrPostman]

What if they find the Stars & Stripes insulting? They were slaves for almost 100 years under that banner, too.

They won't. The KKK has never used it as a symbol.

[Captain_Orso]

I think what makes the idea of the Confederacy so iconic to this day is that on the surface it represents things we hold in high regard such as self determination and freedom. In general, who could be against those ideas? As with everything, context and deeper meaning are actually more important.

As a rather ironic juxtapose "symbol" is the term "'Merica!". Without a pixel of graphic it calls a caricature to mind of an American who only looks at the surface, slapping a sticker of an American flag on anything which then makes it great.

The United States of America is the first nation founded on principals, not on geography nor royal heritage. To me every time the principals are forgotten for the flag, it tarnishes the very idea of America and reduces patriotism to the basest emotions of man.

[Keeler]

They won't. The KKK has never used it as a symbol.

This storypredates the Charleston shooting.

This one doesn't.

[Captain_Orso]

Those are some interesting points being made. And because they are opinions, the holders of them may freely express them in the US. This is how our democratic system is meant to work. People express opinions and open them for debate. It is the core of the American ideal to be able to do this.

[DrPostman]

This storypredates the Charleston shooting.

This one doesn't.

The first is a story about the US flag, the second is from a racist black man
who believes there is a alien mothership that will take him and his religion
up from this planet.

Neither is relevant to this discussion.

While at military school in the 70s I had a battle flag on the wall of my
barracks room. I've always been interested in military history. It wasn't
until several years later I learned how that flag had be appropriated by
hateful people and made their symbol, like the swastika. Both of which were
used much later than their previous intention and changed into something
to be loathed, unless you have hate in your heart as those people do. I'm
a Southerner by birth, and still live here. I have no use for that flag and
I'm glad they went with the Stars & Bars for the game. It should be put
in museums and left there, not displayed out of some ridiculous fake stance
about values, there are so many other better ways to do that.

[Cardinal Ape]

I think the default CSA flag in the game is not the Stars & Bars, it is the Blood Stained Banner. The game does come with the Stars & Bars flag that can easily be swapped in. I'd guess a lot of people switched which flag they use to their own preference. I just can't bring myself to use the Banner flag, aside from its inherent racial statement, I can't fathom why the idiot creator would make a nearly all white flag in the middle of a war. I've often wondered when in the flag creation process that someone realized an all white flag is also the standard symbol for surrender.

[DrPostman]

I think the default CSA flag in the game is not the Stars & Bars, it is the Blood Stained Banner. The game does come with the Stars & Bars flag that can easily be swapped in. I'd guess a lot of people switched which flag they use to their own preference. I just can't bring myself to use the Banner flag, aside from its inherent racial statement, I can't fathom why the idiot creator would make a nearly all white flag in the middle of a war. I've often wondered when in the flag creation process that someone realized an all white flag is also the standard symbol for surrender.

That's why the other two flags were never carried in battle. They looked like
a surrender or truce flag. I don't recall it being in the options, and I've always
remembered it being the S&B flag. I'll fire it up here in an hour or two and see.
Might have been something I changed in the program. Not sure.

[Keeler]

The first is a story about the US flag, the second is from a racist black man
who believes there is a alien mothership that will take him and his religion
up from this planet.

Neither is relevant to this discussion.

I think one or both of us might be confused, be at different points in the discussion, or have misunderstood one another. You responded to someone asking what would happen if someone found the US flag insulting and started a movement to ban it, saying that wouldn't happen. I provided two examples, one predating the shooting and one post-dating the shooting, of groups calling for the banning of the US flag. It is not safe to assume both groups find the flag offensive, else why would they attempt to remove it? I did so to point out there are groups pushing for the removal of the US flag. I could provide several other examples of attempts to remove the US flag before the shooting if you wish, and while I agree with everything you said about Farrakhan, he is the leader of an organization that has between 20,000 and 50,000 members.

I disagree with you that it is irrelevant, as the point is that if a society allows public sentiment to ban one symbol some people find offensive it becomes much easier to ban a second, a third, a fourth, and so on. As said I in my first post in this thread, I distinguish between the argument over whether the "Confederate" flag belongs on public buildings such as statehouses, and the argument over whether individuals should have the freedom display the flag.

I have no problem with debating the former, and as I said earlier I don't think this flag should be flown by government entities due to historical context as to why some state governments began doing so in the mid-20th century. However, it does concern me that as this debate has developed over that last week or so (and I am not accusing you or anyone else who has posted here, because I have seen no evidence of us doing so) it has mixed the first argument with the second. People have a right to free speech, even if that speech is factually wrong, morally offensive, or expresses views held by an extremely small group of people. When that speech becomes action, it is a different story of course.

There is nothing wrong with debating the meaning of the "Confederate" flag, but this sudden assumption on some people's parts (again, not yourself or anyone else here) that the "Confederate" flag is purely a racist symbol no matter the context in which it is being used and that anyone who owns or displays such a flag is racist (a belief which itself makes many blanket assumptions and demonstrates its own form of narrowmindedness) and therefore this flag needs to be erased from public life and anyone displaying or using it needs to be chastised, is wrong. It is wrong because it attempts to enforce one set of values as the only legitimate group of ideas in the public domain, wrong because it attempts to restrict the rights of individuals to believe and demonstrate as they see fit, wrong because it prejudges and attempts to delegitimize individuals merely based on what they are assumed to be thinking. Such narrowing of the range of thought is, to my mind, what Orwell warned of and is not a sign of a robust free society, which is why I find it such an important issue despite my own lack of attachment to this flag. Fortunately what I consider to be an hysterical overreaction seems to have crested, as Apple has eased its policy.

Having said all that, I do think this discussion is moving away from the immediate issue at hand. However, as I said before Apple (along with Amazon and the other companies who have stopped selling flag items), as one of the world's largest distributors of intellectual property plays a major role in how IP is consumed, and therefore how it is produced. As such, I believe it is important to pay attention to how these companies choose to do business. The anti-flag movement certainly seems to believe this, else they would not have pressured the companies to stop selling flag items in the first place. Having made this argument twice now and not wanting to go too far offtopic, I am content to leave this branch of the conversation at that unless anyone else feels there is more needing to be said on the issue, whether here or through messages.



I have enjoyed reading and participating in this discussion, and would like to it clear that everyone here has my respect even if we disagree on some points. It may not be necessary to add this, but we all probably know how hard it is to read tone through the internet.

[DrPostman]

What I suppose I was trying to say is that anything happening to remove the US
flag is a rare and outlying occurrence, usually involving extremists who almost
no one supports. The current discussions about the CSA battle flag are a whole
different ball of wax and it's melting quickly.

[ERISS]

, we must also be vigilant and speak out against injustices in the world. It's the price we pay for freedom and democracy, but I don't think the price is high compared to their loss.

Yes. But I'm not sure what you're speaking about. There's almost no democracy in the world, and surely not the usual self-told ones.
"Democracy" word has been so perverted by his aristocrat enemies, being bourgeois (the big winners) or monarchists.
My father tells the commies teach that we must call 'red' what is green, but it's alike in our 'democratic' countries (and commies, or even monarchists, tell they are democratic: everybody is democrat, even god, but there is nowhere democracy...).

I think what makes the idea of the Confederacy so iconic to this day is that on the surface it represents things we hold in high regard such as self determination and freedom. In general, who could be against those ideas? As with everything, context and deeper meaning are actually more important.

That's it, confederated were more democratics than northerns. That's what I already said here: Civil war was like roman republic (freed slaves compeled to work for the riches) against greek democracy (the few fully responsible/free citizens on slaves and women).

The United States of America is the first nation founded on principals, not on geography nor royal heritage.

It was founded on english royal heritage: States of America removed the queen link, but all other monarchist hierarchy structure was kept (even, many monarchists were let at their rulling office; that was not a democracy but some later it was called like that to cheat people). What took place of the queen is the federal government. The president is the elected queen. Even, many founders of USA wanted a monarchy, but they couldn't call this name for sure, as american people despised the monarchy, english or otherwhere.

[DrPostman]

It was founded on english royal heritage: States of America removed the queen link, but all other monarchist hierarchy structure was kept (even, many monarchists were let at their rulling office; that was not a democracy but it was called like that to cheat people). What took place of the queen is the federal government. The president is the elected queen. Even, many founders of USA wanted a monarchy, but they couldn't call this name for sure, as american people despised the monarchy, english or otherwhere.

Not really. Washington could have become a dictator, but instead he became a Cincinnatus figure.

The US has never been a democracy, never claimed to be. The US is a Republic.
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[DrPostman]

BTW, here's one opinion that I believe speaks so much more loudly
that the rest of us:


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[ERISS]

The US has never claimed to be a democracy, never.

But americans claim to make war to protect democracy, how generous and noble they are to spend so money for something they hate in fact.
American "democrats" are for a better american republic, and American "republicans" are for a better american monarchy.

[BBBD316]

Well not to get too drawn into America and what it represents.

I think outside the USA, people simply equate any CSA symbol with slavery and from their make their judgement, after all not many countries outside the US really study the Civil War in depth.

[DrPostman]

But americans claim to make war to protect democracy, how generous and noble they are to spend so money for something they hate in fact.
American "democrats" are for a better american republic, and American "republicans" are for a better american monarchy.

I'm not fond of the Republican party, but most of what money gets spent
on favors the military industrial complex, something a Republican warned
the US about when he left office in 1960. There is more of an Oligarchy
going on here than any monarchy. But we also have people like Bernie
Sanders fighting against that, just like 115 years earlier we had Teddy
Roosevelt take on the robber barons. Yes, we have lots of faults, what
country doesn't, but we also had a group of enlightened people compose
a document that has kept a nation going strong for about 230 years now.

[Suidlander]

Here in South Africa we also have Anglo Boer War re enactors with the 100 year celebration of the start of that war they had a big weekend get together on the original farm of the then president of the Orange Freestate province, one of the two Boer provinces. The great , great grandson of that president still lives on the farm and he is the leader of the re enactors. Now half way throug the weekend bus loads of youth members of the current goverment started arriving on the farm to stop this racial gathering of the far right. We'll at least that's what they believed. Now like in America all this nonsense could have being avoided if people knew more and had more respect for theire shared history. And to go and ban a flag because some idiots are hijacking it is crazy. Instead of solving today's problems were making them tommorrow's problems.

[tripax]

I'm sure many of you read or took part in yesterdays reddit Ask Me Anything panel about the civil war. I just wanted to let everyone know that there will be another AMA tomorrow, July 7,"AMA: Confederate Flag" with John Coski, author of The Confederate Battle Flag.

For completeness, let me recommend some other reddit forums if you don't read them already. I heartily recommend reddit's Ask Historians forum which is moderated in a way that keeps the discussion very professional and professional or academic historians give many of the best answers. The Colorized History and Colorized Civil War forums are great as well. The Civil War forum is less well moderated, but is ok. For general interest with lots of civil war posts, History, Today I Learned, and Bad History deserve mention. While all of reddit's history forums seem to favor academic versions of history, Bad History has a particularly negative view of certain kinds of Civil War histories; I don't recommend it if, for instance, you don't believe slavery was the main cause of the Civil War.

Edit: link added