Raid Depot Card

[pgr]

So a quick question, do people know how the partisan raid depot card works? I know it depends on how many enemy units are in the depot region (I'm assuming at turn 0), but I'm wondering what the relationship is. Something like for each element in the depot region, the chance of success goes down x%?

[grimjaw]

This is the code from the card. Looks like the base chance is 50% if I'm reading it right. I can't tell from this if the modifiers for enemy units are in this or in some other piece of code. I don't know what "$rgdSocial" or "$dstMilAction" are, or where they are stored.

Code: Select all

UID = 33
Alias = rgdPartisansRaid
Name = $rgd_nam_PartisansRaid
ShortName = $rgd_shortnam_PartisansRaid
Text = $rgd_txt_PartisansRaid
Kind = $rgdSocial
Subtype = $dstMilAction
SoundsPlayed = $snd_RGD_PartisansRaid
ImageMap = RgnDecision_OnMap_PartisansRaid.png
ImagePanel = RgnDecision_PartisansRaid.png
ImageFlavor = CW2_MilAction.png
MustHaveAdjThisSUAttrib = #IsPartisan#
MustHaveAdjThisSUFamily = $famSkirmisher|$famRaider
MustHaveNumQualify = 1
MustNotBeOwnedRegion = 1
CityMaxLevel = 10
NeedThisStrucAttribAny = #Is_Depot#
BaseSuccess = 50
Duration = 1
Out_Abs_Morale = 1
Effect_PostponeEnd = 1
Effect_RemoveFromFP = 1
Effect_ScriptFileName = RegionsDecisions
Effect_ScriptName = RGDScriptPartisansRaid
Effect_Str_Success = str_CMN_rgd_PartisansRaid

Other part of the code.

Code: Select all

StartEvent = RGDScriptPartisansRaid|999|0|NULL|NULL|NULL|NULL

Conditions
  SelectSubUnits = Region;Enemy
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT

Actions
  RemoveStructure = ByKind $StuDepot;ALL;ANYFAC

EndEvent

[pgr]

Humm.... Interesting....though I am still confused! It seems like there has to be some garrison effect.... But I'll be darned if I see it.

[Merlin]

That card is ridiculously potent, and I think the Union has way too many to play.

[FelixZ]

That card is ridiculously potent, and I think the Union has way too many to play.

Both sides have way too many of these cards.

[Merlin]

I'm okay with the number of CSA cards, but I'd cut the number of Union cards in half.

[grimjaw]

argh server crashed after I'd typed SO MUCH

Humm.... Interesting....though I am still confused!

I know what you mean. I'm guessing here, but this is the way I think it works.

There are a number of conditions that have to be met before the script checking for the number of units fires. Does it have the partisan attribute, is it in the right family, does it pass a DICE roll of 50%, etc. Since some of these things are evaluated when you try to place the card, it's hard for me to say if the 50% check is done when you place the card. For all I know, you might have failed before it even evaluates units when the turn is processed.

If the preconditions are met, the script will fire. Script goes something like:

1. conditions
1a. select the number of "enemy" units in the region you selected for the card
1b. NumUnitsSelected < RandomNumberGenerated
1c. NumUnitsSelected < RandomNumberGenerated
1d. NumUnitsSelected < RandomNumberGenerated

if 1. conditions == true, perform actions.

It does three coin flips and you have to win three times (all have to evaluate to TRUE). But I'm guessing when it comes to the word "DICE_NOT" as I haven't seen that before now. I assume it equates to <= DICE or < DICE or something. So it's not a fixed set of units; it's more or less linear if I understand probability correctly. The higher the number of units the lower the chances, but there might be a small chance to fail even with one enemy unit present. If DICE_NOT has a maximum value (probably 99 or 100) then there's a threshold of elements that will always fail the check, but it's pretty high. Also, I don't know if EvalSubUnitCount will evaluate to true or false. I assume it won't or it always evaluates true, so it always passes that condition even if there are no units. Otherwise with zero enemy units present you'd always fail the check.

That's my guess. It depends on what DICE_NOT equates to. Usually when I see "NOT" in the game files, it's negating a statement. Does a unit exist, NOT, meaning this statement is true of the unit doesn't exist. It's not very computer-science-ish to have complete statements for 'this exists' & 'this doesn't exist'. It's always, this exists, this exists (not). I'm in the ballpark, but that's all I know.

[ajarnlance]

If you ask me I think the whole card thing has been overdone by AGEOD. There are too many period... take the bales of cotton card at Alamagordo... it is just one more thing I have to remember to do every turn. Why not just give me the extra cash each year that I hold that territory????

[Pocus]

Because you could lose Almagordo and not being able to play the card.

Partisan raid. if you have to succeed thrice a percentile dice roll under the number of enemy elements in the region.

[Captain_Orso]

Wait, WHAT??

That would mean, the FEW elements the enemy has guarding the depot, the LESS chance the attacker has .

It would only make sense if the attacker had to roll HIGHER ... on the dice, not the state of mind to blow the depot. No, I don't have an anigif that goes with blow, schiesh

[ajarnlance]

Because you could lose Almagordo and not being able to play the card.

OK maybe I picked a bad example but my overall point is that there are already so many cards to choose from that if you add any more in the future I think it will be too much. A little flavour goes a long way...

[grimjaw]

I don't have a problem with the end results of some of the regional decisions. It seems like since some of them are so specialized, though, they could just as easily be added to the menu for specific units. Landing sailors or guns could be on the menu options for warships. Partisan raiding and depot burning on the options for those units. I don't know if that would have been more difficult to code than what we have.

With the current setup, I might like a slightly different interface for them such that they could be categorized into sub-menus.

[Pocus]

Sorry Cpt, you are right, you have to roll above the number of elements, thrice, this is why this is a DICE NOT and not a DICE


As for RGD, I understand what you mean Ajarnlance. RGDs are important but even if we overreached slightly, they won't win the game for you, as the other too is playing them.

[Captain_Orso]

No probs. I think you explained this to me once before . Looks like it's time I put it in the Wiki .

[pgr]

Thanks all for the explanations.

[ajarnlance]

If you ask me the raid depot card is way too powerful and unbalances the game. A cheap partisan unit can take out a level four depot in one turn from an adjacent region. The only defence against this is to completely ring your depot cities with militia... every city! Currently partisans with this card are much more potent than the best raiders like Forrest... this unbalances the game. See the thread I started on why partisans are overpowered

[ohms_law]

There's only so many of those cards though, and they don't always work even if the target is valid.
You're right, that card is powerful, but I think that you're giving it too much power.

[ajarnlance]

There's only so many of those cards though, and they don't always work even if the target is valid.
You're right, that card is powerful, but I think that you're giving it too much power.

Yes, but considering how much a level four depot is worth and how few of them there are it is a big hit. I guess I have to protect them better While we are on the subject of depots is it possible to build back up to a level four e.g. every couple of turns I 'add' another supply unit. Does anyone know if these can 'build up' above a level one depot?

[ohms_law]

AFAIK you can't. > level 1 anything is basically outside of the scope of the game.
All of the level 4 depots are pretty damn important regions, regardless. If you're letting raiders get to adjacent provinces, where they can sit for a turn, and don't have a large enough garrison to make the Raid Depot card irrelevent, then you're basically getting what you deserve anyway.

[grimjaw]

I guess I never looked into it before. What do the different numbered levels of the depots represent? If it's just the amount of total supplies drawn or stored, I don't think size should matter all that much when it comes to destroying it. We are talking about the era of the Great Chicago Fire, after all, and that wasn't even on purpose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

If it's something else, like upgrading from simple wooden shacks to brick warehouses and cisterns ...

[Merlin]

If you succeed against a depot greater than level 1, it reduces the size of the depot by 1. Given what Pocus has said, I'm not certain the card is working as it should, since I've seen it reduce Alexandria when the entire AotP is sitting there.

[ajarnlance]

If you succeed against a depot greater than level 1, it reduces the size of the depot by 1. Given what Pocus has said, I'm not certain the card is working as it should, since I've seen it reduce Alexandria when the entire AotP is sitting there.

Captain Orso checked and was surprised to find that a level four depot is completely removed in one turn: IT IS NOT REDUCED BY ONE LEVEL BUT BY FOUR. THIS MAKES IT FAR TOO POWERFUL. However, as you say, I think it should only be reduced by one for each successful attack. Someone needs to let Pocus know it's not working as advertised

[Merlin]

Captain Orso checked and was surprised to find that a level four depot is completely removed in one turn: IT IS NOT REDUCED BY ONE LEVEL BUT BY FOUR. THIS MAKES IT FAR TOO POWERFUL. However, as you say, I think it should only be reduced by one for each successful attack. Someone needs to let Pocus know it's not working as advertised

Oh, I don't doubt it's not working as advertised. I specified my reasons in your other raiding card thread, I've just never seen an entire depot disappear myself. I've lost levels, just not the whole thing, and I've no idea why our results are so different.

[Captain_Orso]

I don't know where what is advertised, but I had read somewhere that it should only reduce a depot by 1 level. The AGEWiki section on script commands says something else. It says the depot is removed. That seems to be WAD.

[ajarnlance]

I don't know where what is advertised, but I had read somewhere that it should only reduce a depot by 1 level. The AGEWiki section on script commands says something else. It says the depot is removed. That seems to be WAD.

What does WAD mean?? I agree that a raid should only remove one level of a depot. I have asked Pocus to look into it...

[minipol]

WAD= Works As Designed

[ohms_law]

I disagree. Removing 1 level means that the card essentially does nothing. As grimjaw already said, the higher levels only mean that more supply can be stored there, which is pretty meaningless in actual gameplay.

You're not supposed to be happy about it being played against you, you know.

[ajarnlance]

I disagree. Removing 1 level means that the card essentially does nothing. As grimjaw already said, the higher levels only mean that more supply can be stored there, which is pretty meaningless in actual gameplay.

You're not supposed to be happy about it being played against you, you know.

I'm definitely not happy about it, except in my more masochistic moments... I am realizing that there isn't that much difference then between losing a level 4 and a level 1. Depots only produce supply, nothing else correct?

[grimjaw]

I'm not going to get into whether it was supposed to work this way as a function of design. This is the relevant line of code in the script associated with the RGD.

RemoveStructure = ByKind $StuDepot;ALL;ANYFAC

That syntax doesn't discriminate as to level of the depot. The only level check is for a city, (CityMaxLevel = 10) which is done when the card is placed. Since some of the rest of programming happens under the covers, I don't know what other line you could add to the RGD or the script to check the depot level.

The whole thing is a very high level of abstraction. Take a region like Nashville, TN, which already contains a large depot (I forgot the level, it's > 1). In these regions, military encampment often was outside the city. Does the game assume the depot was in the city or just somewhere in the region? If a fort was built in Nashville, was it built around the depot? Was the depot relocated inside the fort? When your 60 men (that's the flavor size of a partisan unit, IIRC) comes to set the hardtack, bacon and powder on fire, is it waltzing past the heavily manned fortification gates with lighted torches? At least in Nashville there might be enough population for the partisans to blend in and melt away to. OTOH, there's more people around to lend a hand in the bucket chain from the Tennessee River to put the fire out.

It a frontier region where the only structure (in game terms) is a depot, you could assume that has few defenses besides what the force in the region has entrenched near it. None of those things are taken into consideration by the RGD. If you own the region and the depot, you could ignore the items I mentioned above. But then for some reason larger depots are immune. It seems to me there's something in the game that can check depot level, because it's being used by units as a condition to allow depot destruction.

... and for some reason, it takes less time to destroy a depot if you don't own it. But only if you're regular army, because units with the appropriate attribute can fire a depot as soon as they capture it. Matter of fact, some units can (or could, haven't tried in awhile) gallop through regions with cities they can't capture, and while there they can fire the depot. Like a 19th century drive-by.

Really, the level of depot is the least of my beefs.

[ajarnlance]

I'm not going to get into whether it was supposed to work this way as a function of design. This is the relevant line of code in the script associated with the RGD.

RemoveStructure = ByKind $StuDepot;ALL;ANYFAC

That syntax doesn't discriminate as to level of the depot. The only level check is for a city, (CityMaxLevel = 10) which is done when the card is placed. Since some of the rest of programming happens under the covers, I don't know what other line you could add to the RGD or the script to check the depot level.

The whole thing is a very high level of abstraction. Take a region like Nashville, TN, which already contains a large depot (I forgot the level, it's > 1). In these regions, military encampment often was outside the city. Does the game assume the depot was in the city or just somewhere in the region? If a fort was built in Nashville, was it built around the depot? Was the depot relocated inside the fort? When your 60 men (that's the flavor size of a partisan unit, IIRC) comes to set the hardtack, bacon and powder on fire, is it waltzing past the heavily manned fortification gates with lighted torches? At least in Nashville there might be enough population for the partisans to blend in and melt away to. OTOH, there's more people around to lend a hand in the bucket chain from the Tennessee River to put the fire out.

It a frontier region where the only structure (in game terms) is a depot, you could assume that has few defenses besides what the force in the region has entrenched near it. None of those things are taken into consideration by the RGD. If you own the region and the depot, you could ignore the items I mentioned above. But then for some reason larger depots are immune. It seems to me there's something in the game that can check depot level, because it's being used by units as a condition to allow depot destruction.

... and for some reason, it takes less time to destroy a depot if you don't own it. But only if you're regular army, because units with the appropriate attribute can fire a depot as soon as they capture it. Matter of fact, some units can (or could, haven't tried in awhile) gallop through regions with cities they can't capture, and while there they can fire the depot. Like a 19th century drive-by.

Really, the level of depot is the least of my beefs.

I wonder if the 'driveby' still works? That seems a bit overpowered. I agree that it is strange that it takes 5 days to destroy a depot you own compared to instant destruction from an adjacent region.