User avatar
tripax
AGEod Veteran
Posts: 777
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:58 pm

What am I supposed to do here - still win-less against Union Athena

Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:01 pm

Every few games I'll try another game as the CSA and I can't figure out why it goes so badly. The games usually work out more or less the same. I capture and hold Tuscon with a small Texas brigade and a single 6lb artillery, hold El Paso with New Mexico militia, take most of Missouri, St Louis, and Cairo, largely with the armies I get for free, and have an Army in Northern Kentucky. Most of my builds are in Virginia. I've repelled a couple coastal attacks, but usually have trouble repelling an attack in Houston, Pensacola, and at least one of the Atlantic Ports (Charleston and Wilmington have both fallen in my current game, Wilmington is retaken). In Virginia, I do ok, I've got a 5 divisions under Lee in Richmond, 2-4 divisions at the base of the Shenandoah under Jackson, a division in Covington and a few other divisions chasing around random small attacks.

And then things get weird/horrible. All of the sudden the Union splits up its large armies and sends down dozens of divisions to invade. The first few win nothing and die of attrition. But eventually I can't hold them off. I've pasted a picture of Virginia below. You can see AP Hill's division moving to rejoin Jackson and there, but there are a few divisions in North Carolina chasing down random Union attacking divisions not on the map.
[ATTACH]29163[/ATTACH]
In the upper Mississippi, the Union has 5 divisions in 5 different counties in Tennessee and a Corps in Cairo and 2 corps near Louisville. I can take a few of these, but will probably not get Cairo and Memphis back, and will have to retreat to Louisville.
[ATTACH]29164[/ATTACH]
I can't figure out what I can do. The Union has 257/0 power. If I held Memphis and Charleston (which I just lost), my VP gain would be 54 per turn to the Unions 57. Even so, I'm getting crushed on VP, 2138 to 2405. I've had nearly twice the NM, currently at 141 to the Union's 81.
[ATTACH]29165[/ATTACH]
So my question is, what am I doing wrong? I industrialize most of what I can. I don't lose very many large battles in the first 18 months and have kept losses 3:2 in my favor. I do ok on supplies. In 1864 I'll retreat further. My VP debt will go up and up. I haven't recruited a new unit in a while and will probably not recruit any more, having to buy so many replacements. I won't win more than 1/4 of my future battles. I am going to lose, and I have a hard time playing these games to the end.

For settings, I play historical attrition, standard naval boxes, Colonel (toughest) AI, Athena gets Activation and AI Detect bonuses, normal aggressiveness, AI gets more time and uses all behaviors. For your consideration, here is what I wrote about my first game as CSA (my post on March 12th is after things go sour), same result for every game since.
Attachments
Untitled.png
Untitled3.jpg
Untitled2.jpg

User avatar
Gray Fox
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1560
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:48 pm
Location: Englewood, OH

Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:11 pm

My comments are what my comments originally were. Stop trying to hold on to the bitter end and start trying to win now. Build one army stack that would impress Crom, grab D.C. by the throat and shake vigorously.
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

User avatar
Jim-NC
Posts: 2981
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:21 pm
Location: Near Region 209, North Carolina

Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:24 pm

What is your definition of victory?

I can say that the NM resiliency makes it almost impossible to knock out the other side. When their NM goes down, it bounces right back up, and thus you have a really hard time landing a knock out blow. Also, most of the VP cities are CSA controlled, and thus as the CSA loses ground, the VPs swing into the union's favor.
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

User avatar
tripax
AGEod Veteran
Posts: 777
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:58 pm

Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:40 pm

GF: I guess I could. This game I am testing my mod so I need the game to last deep into it. Perhaps your strategy is more realistic, as well. If the Confederacy had gone for blood immediately maybe the war would have swung in their favor. I have to imagine that I should be able to win a defensive war, though.

Jim: I'm happy with a VP victory, but I'm way behind in VP even though I've been so successful in the West. I find it is easy to get a NM lead against Athena either side, although its only possible to win on NM by toppling the capital (see Gray Fox's strategy).

minipol
General
Posts: 560
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:24 pm

Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:45 pm

I have yet to loose a game against Union Athena. What I try to do.

- At the start and through 1861: build loads of troops and militia. Hold Harpers Ferry, Alexandria in VA. Keep the armies there to at least 2/3 of the Union power. Dig in.
Later on, get more quality troops and generals up there, and big guns.
Build lot's of cavalry for the west, and some in VA to scout.
Try and withdraw from Morgantown.
If possible, send some extra troops to Tuscon. They will eventually capture it and it's 5 VP per turn
Same with El Paso, don't neglect it.
Slowly build it up with a few militia, a decent brigade and some artillery.
- Also in 1861: invest in several Ironworks and Arsenals. After 1861 I don't build anything. In 1864 I have a surplus of 4000 WS.
Use the cards runner etc to get WS in the beginning, later on, don't bother
- Do not invest in fleets to much. I keep my runners and that's it. I join the fleets on the mississipi and that's enough to kill most Union river bound threats.
- Build a fort in NO and Paducah. I try to capture Fort Monroe as well. Hold a small division on Ft Monroe and Norfolk/Suffolk.
- Guard seabord: at least a division in NO (I had 4 at a certain time because the Union invaded with several big stacks), some forces in Mobile, Savannah, Charleston.
- Use bigger cavalry stacks in the IT's to capture the forts. 1 division can be used to head on to Denver and the goldmine nearby.
- Hold Jefferson City and Rolla, capture Cairo and St Louis. Keep slightly bigger garrisons there.
- Invest in railroads and rivertransport from the start. You will need them to transport divisions to react to invasions.
- Try to hunt for supply and lone gun units
- Use flatboats to build depots in cities next to rivers
All this makes the VA theatre a standoff, the seaboard is defended, NO is safe. Open is the west (where you have an advantage over the Union most of the time because
the Union ignores this for quite some time). The biggest fun is in TN, KY and IN. I try to invade KY as soon as the Union enters. I do not enter on my own.
I head for Louisville and Lexington. You can build lot's of troops and guns in KY.

I then invade and take Salem, Vincennes and Columbus. I try to hold that line with armies and corps. But's it's hard. I threaten Indianapolis and Cincinnati on occasions.

- Destroy all the depots after this front line, use plunder cards to get extra money, and always have partisans and cavalry infiltrate behind the front line to destroy railroads.
- Use the demonstration cards on the biggest industrial centers of the Union
- Key is to win battles big and loose small meaning, make lots of casualties and try no to loose to many soldiers when you're defeated.
- Build a couple of army HQ's and pontoons. I struggle with this as I spend my money first on troops.
I first built a HQ in 1863. Very late, but I didn't have a use for it earlier.
- Micromanage divisions when you can. Use sharpshooters, cavalry and good infantry. Use militia for guard duty but do use them at the start. You need bodies.
- I'm not afraid to spend money on big guns. I have several 20lbs and a lot of 10 lb's gun. They are way better than the 12 lbs guns.

This will all lower the production capability of the enemy.
Enemy combat power is at 106. So I almost have equal number of troops. That's what you're aiming at because on defense, you have an advantage over the attacker.

If you keep the entire frontline nearly level across the map, you will win comfortably on VP's.
The Union needs to invest in several options to lower my Foreign Intervention. Now it's at 44 in early May 1865. Without the options of the Union, it probably would have been 30 points higher.

Merlin
General
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 2:41 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:45 pm

The only way to beat Athena on Colonel as the CSA is to win early. If you want a long war you have to lower the level to at least Lieutenant or you will always end up right where you are now - facing the Mongol hordes.

User avatar
tripax
AGEod Veteran
Posts: 777
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:58 pm

Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:26 pm

I thought maybe the difficulty thing was the problem, but I want to believe that it is possible to win the long game on Colonel (not that I've ever tried for a short game a la Gray Fox).

minipol, do you recoment playing on Lieutenant or Colonel. Merlin, you are obviously at least as good as I am, are the rest of my settings ok? That is, should my settings be: historical attrition, standard naval boxes, Lieutenant AI difficulty, Athena gets Activation and AI Detect bonuses, normal aggressiveness, AI gets more time and uses all behaviors.

Merlin
General
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 2:41 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:35 pm

Yeah, your settings are fine. I don't think Athena gets any smarter when you increase the difficulty; she just gets more toys.

I managed to hold out until May '65 once. Most of my armies were intact, but she had something like a 310% advantage in combat power. There just isn't anything you can do against that.

minipol
General
Posts: 560
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:24 pm

Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:19 pm

Play on lieutenant until you have a firm grasp of the basic plan as the CSA. You need to score points in the beginning of the war, because later on it gets very hard

User avatar
tripax
AGEod Veteran
Posts: 777
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:58 pm

Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:16 am

minipol wrote:Play on lieutenant until you have a firm grasp of the basic plan as the CSA. You need to score points in the beginning of the war, because later on it gets very hard


I think I follow your strategy, more or less. Certainly my gameplay could use some streamlining, but I don't have any touble beating Athena as Union. Do you play on Colonol, minipol?

Thanks everyone for the advice.

Merlin
General
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 2:41 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:45 am

I really want to point out to future (new) players that setting Athena above Lieutenant is a bad idea. The average human player will leverage his resources in such a manner as to keep a force ratio of at least 1.5:1, and Athena is incapable of creating strategic delemmas for a player.

User avatar
Gray Fox
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1560
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:48 pm
Location: Englewood, OH

Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:00 pm

I have also blitzed D.C. as late as the summer of '62. A wall of Union stacks rolled into VA and then I sent my killer army to Fredericksburg-Manassas-D.C. Athena doesn't have an "oh-crapometer" to register when it's time to change gears.

In my current Union AAR, I moved the capital to NYC in '61 with no problems. I recommend this to every Union player.
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!

vonRocko
Colonel
Posts: 385
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:28 pm

Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:38 pm

Take Gen. Jackson and a mid size corp , swing left of Washington and take Baltimore. Then sit there and union moral will break. Works every time against Athena.

User avatar
tripax
AGEod Veteran
Posts: 777
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:58 pm

Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:10 pm

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'm going to turn down the difficulty next time. Also, minipol, thanks for the great todo list for the confederacy. I'll let everyone know how it goes.

minipol
General
Posts: 560
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:24 pm

Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:50 am

Hopefully it works :)

Return to “Civil War II”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests