powloon1
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Sharpshooters

Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:20 am

I have just purchased this game and I am playing my first game as the USA. I am trying to work out what my early build priorities should be and I wanted to check that I understand the effect of sharpshooters correctly.

The sharpshooter special ability says it applies only to the unit it is in. I am assuming that in the early going before you get divisions that placing a sharpshooter in say McDowells army stack will not give that whole stack the +1 initiative bonus and this would only apply to the individiual sharpshooter regiment or brigade (if it had a sharpshooter element). When divisions come along if you have a sharpshooter in the division the whole division gets the +1 initiative. Is this correct?

RebelYell
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:24 am

powloon1 wrote:I have just purchased this game and I am playing my first game as the USA. I am trying to work out what my early build priorities should be and I wanted to check that I understand the effect of sharpshooters correctly.

The sharpshooter special ability says it applies only to the unit it is in. I am assuming that in the early going before you get divisions that placing a sharpshooter in say McDowells army stack will not give that whole stack the +1 initiative bonus and this would only apply to the individiual sharpshooter regiment or brigade (if it had a sharpshooter element). When divisions come along if you have a sharpshooter in the division the whole division gets the +1 initiative. Is this correct?


Yes, it is a unit you can start building in 62 and not miss much.

Aktivist
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:43 am

I might add a question about sharpshooters, if You accept.

Can the Sharpshooter-Trait be applied to leader models? I mean, will it still work the way it was originally designed?

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Ol' Choctaw
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:14 am

The sharpshooter gives its bonus to the stack it is in. They can be built from the start.

You should endeavor to have one per division, once you can build those.

Having them not as a part of a larger division may result in their loss, so it is safer in order to prevent their early death.

The trait will be applied to the leader of the combined unit, though it may not show up if there are more than four special abilities associated with it.

They are not regular troops but irregulars who can perform ambushes but cannot take towns without regulars present.

Hope that helps.

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GraniteStater
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:21 am

Don't forget Brigades with sharpies in them.

I get queasy if lone sharpies are not in a Div - they are vulnerable, 'tis true.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster

[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898

RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.


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powloon1
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:37 am

Thanks for the replies

Ol' Choctaw wrote:The sharpshooter gives its bonus to the stack it is in.


I think this is the bit I am confused about. So if I put a sharpshooter in say Mcdowells army stack (pre division) after it unlocks the whole stack will get the initiative bonus? To me it reads like the sharpshooter needs to be inside a unit ie a division.

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Ol' Choctaw
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:50 am

They will give the stack the bonus but in the first fight they are likely to be taken out.

A brigade with sharpshooters is safer as long as you don’t lose the whole brigade.

The Union has brigades with sharpshooters in PA and IN, the South has them in MO, TX, and AL. Many elite brigades have them as well.

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GraniteStater
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:54 am

They will give the stack the bonus


Are you sure? I got the impression in AACW that single loose SSs did not bestow the initiative bonus to the stack.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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ArmChairGeneral
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:03 am

Ol' Choctaw wrote:The sharpshooter gives its bonus to the stack it is in.


Ol' Choctaw, did you mean unit rather than stack? I was not aware they gave a bonus to the stack, I was under the impression that they worked exactly as powloon1 described in his initial post.

Aktivist, are you talking about modding a leader to have the sharpshooter ability?

General observation: Not that I don't build them into every division I can, but +1 initiative is not that big of a combat bonus in the scheme of things (IMO).

Edit: Cross posting, sorry for the confusion

Aktivist
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:05 pm

Yes, Mr. ArmChair, that is what I'm talking about. Since some leaders have the ability Entrencher or Signalman, I was wondering if the same can also be applied to the Sharpshooter. The main effect is, their units have a slight battle bonus due to increased iniative. Appliable for leaders of classis shock divisions/brigades, for example.

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Highlandcharge
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:18 pm

AFAIK the initiative ability does not exist for leaders.. I believe that sharpshooter give the ability to the brigade or when you can build them the division they are in..

I always try to put a sharpshooter in every division I build, it doesn't hurt to get the first shoot in :)

Aktivist
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:31 pm

Yeas, of course, sharpshooters are a must for every division - as per engine design. I was never happy with way, the game explained and designed this ability. In my opinion, this trait does not describe the effect of sharpshooters, but the general ability to deploy an effective forward skirmisher line. Something that should not be connected to a unit element model, but to a leader model. Because it is related to the deployment abilities and style of a leader in battle.

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GraniteStater
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:36 pm

Highlandcharge wrote:AFAIK the initiative ability does not exist for leaders.. I believe that sharpshooter give the ability to the brigade or when you can build them the division they are in..

I always try to put a sharpshooter in every division I build, it doesn't hurt to get the first shoot in :)


"Surpriser" - AS Johnston. Otherwise, he's thoroughly unremarkable, imo. Grant vs ASJ - yum, yum.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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GraniteStater
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:38 pm

Highlandcharge wrote:AFAIK the initiative ability does not exist for leaders.. I believe that sharpshooter give the ability to the brigade or when you can build them the division they are in..

I always try to put a sharpshooter in every division I build, it doesn't hurt to get the first shoot in :)


First volley, if placed at all well, was very determinative during the war.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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Highlandcharge
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:44 pm

Doh!! Yep I forgot about the surprisor ability, there is only a very small chance of it working, in all my games i have only seen it work 2 or 3 times, the skirmesher ability works everytime..

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Ol' Choctaw
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:50 pm

ArmChairGeneral wrote:Ol' Choctaw, did you mean unit rather than stack? I was not aware they gave a bonus to the stack, I was under the impression that they worked exactly as powloon1 described in his initial post.

Aktivist, are you talking about modding a leader to have the sharpshooter ability?

General observation: Not that I don't build them into every division I can, but +1 initiative is not that big of a combat bonus in the scheme of things (IMO).

Edit: Cross posting, sorry for the confusion


The leader may have no traits of his own but will display the traits of his division or brigade if combined. Leaders with traits will display their traits and the traits of their units if combined up to a certain number. Usually 4.

The leader never gains those traits himself. He is only displaying what his elements may have.

GraniteStater wrote:Are you sure? I got the impression in AACW that single loose SSs did not bestow the initiative bonus to the stack.


If it ends up in the line of battle the bonus is applied.

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GraniteStater
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:52 pm

Aktivist wrote:Yeas, of course, sharpshooters are a must for every division - as per engine design. I was never happy with way, the game explained and designed this ability. In my opinion, this trait does not describe the effect of sharpshooters, but the general ability to deploy an effective forward skirmisher line. Something that should not be connected to a unit element model, but to a leader model. Because it is related to the deployment abilities and style of a leader in battle.


I know for the Union that SS Bdes are 90 (no, that's not a typo) Day builds. Forget what the lone SS unit is.

I don't have them everywhere, but sprinkled pretty good.

If you try to build perfect Divisions, you'll go nuts. Technical writing, project management - define the objectives. Don't write the perfect online Help system, write the one that helps the user and know when you've addressed the points required. Also, know what the reader doesn't need to know.

Applies to the game, really.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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GraniteStater
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:17 pm

Ol' Choctaw wrote:The leader may have no traits of his own but will display the traits of his division or brigade if combined. Leaders with traits will display their traits and the traits of their units if combined up to a certain number. Usually 4.

The leader never gains those traits himself. He is only displaying what his elements may have.



If it ends up in the line of battle the bonus is applied.


IOW, if it engages. And probably applies the bonus to engaged units only. Got that right?
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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ArmChairGeneral
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:16 pm

Thanks OC!

Perhaps the text for the Sharpshooter ability tooltip ought to be changed from "unit" to "stack." Right now it says unit.

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GraniteStater
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:35 pm

If one is using them 'loose', it is much, much better to have a Bde with a SS in it - loose individual SSs are very vulnerable. Myself, I don't ever use them outside of a Div - very, very rarely. The individual SSs can get absolutely annihilated - they're not Cav, which can survive decently in a fray.

They're a 75 Day build - in AACW, it only took a couple of times to make me very risk averse with them.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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planefinder
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:23 pm

ArmChairGeneral wrote:Thanks OC!

Perhaps the text for the Sharpshooter ability tooltip ought to be changed from "unit" to "stack." Right now it says unit.


If that's the case, my next question would be whether or not a sharpshooter inside a division or merged with a general in a stack conveys this bonus as well, or whether only a loose unit would convey to the stack....

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GraniteStater
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Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:40 pm

AFAIK, a SS in a Div does not. Nor does a 'merged' Ldr/SS unit. I really still don't buy this about benefiting the stack. Is the tooltip just simply wrong, a typo, incorrect? A stack is composed of units. A Leader is a unit. Any square thingie in a stack, ashore or afloat, is a unit.

AFAIK, O'C's assertion is News to Me. Maybe I'm wrong, but SS <-> Unit was Gospel, IIRC.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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ArmChairGeneral
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Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:19 am

GraniteStater wrote:AFAIK, O'C's assertion is News to Me. Maybe I'm wrong, but SS <-> Unit was Gospel, IIRC.

It was to me too, I have never seen it described any other way any of the major source material, so I looked at a battle log file, and the Unit that had the SS was listed as getting an initiative bonus, but it was unclear as to whether only that Unit got the bonus or whether the whole stack did. I tried it a couple of different ways (inside a div, loose in the stack) but couldn't find hard evidence either way (I am not an expert on interpretation, however: it is pretty arcane stuff in the log files).

If the bonus applied to the stack then I would think the bonus passes to the whole stack even when inside another unit (brigade, division, merged with leader).

For what GS said in his first paragraph to also be true would mean that the bonus could apply if it were loose in a stack but if it is in a unit then its unit status overrides, and only the unit gets the bonus. This would imply that a loose SS would benefit the whole stack, but a brigade with an integrated SS would not.

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Ol' Choctaw
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Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:23 am

Look, don’t get all bent out of shape on this.

It is from observation. It provides the bonus as long as the unit is in the frontage. That may not be for long with a single unit. If it dies or is too weak to be in the line there is no bonus in future rounds.

If you have divisions, some with and some without and none with them show up in the line, you won’t get the bonus.

Only one in an army stack is not going to be enough to assure that you get the bonus in every round. Chances are go that it won’t live that long.

In a division they are much more resilient due to the way casualties are assessed.

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GraniteStater
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Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:20 pm

Nobody's upset - just puzzled.

Tell us your observations, please. Screenies, stolen code, something. What led you to believe this? The description is OK - but what did you see? Battle Screen? What?
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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Ol' Choctaw
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Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:27 pm

Yes, the Battle screens. No deep science or piercing insight into the code. That is a Captain_Orso thing or maybe Ace.

Exact battle mechanics, I don’t think anyone but Pocus knows exactly what is happening, but the logic seems to look for units with bonuses to put into the line.

Sharpshooters seem to be a priority for frontage but also a priority as a target for the enemy. Elite forces and sailors/marines come somewhere after that, or maybe it is their toughness cause they last longer. Militia get eaten quickly too, but I figure it is the size of unit and lack of toughness to fault there.

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GraniteStater
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Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:21 pm

So what did you see on the screen - y'know, so we can recognize it? We don't have some info that was in the AACW screen.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





Image

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Ol' Choctaw
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Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:04 am

Most of AACW combat translates directly to CW II. Changes were not made to the overall combat system, the last time I heard, just to some of the units.

The battle report changed but close examination will show you the same bonuses and priorities.

The only thing that has changed regarding sharpshooters are their build times.

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ArmChairGeneral
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Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:12 am

I would imagine that is a result of the fact that sharpies tend to get to fire early in the lineup, and if they hit something it draws the fire of the rest of the unit that they hit. If they hit an element in a large brigade all of the other elements will want to target it for the rest of the round but since it is the only element in the unit there is no one to share the hits with.

Same principle applies to any combat element loose in a stack: loose cav elements tend to bite it a lot in the big Corp v Corp matchups when a division (unit) decides to target them. It is rare (though not impossible) for a division to target a small unit on their own, but if the loose element gets in the first hit then the whole enemy unit (division) is looking at them for the rest of the round....

For Elites and Marines, their high hit percentage means they can attract "unwanted" attention from larger units that they hit early in the round.

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GraniteStater
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Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:40 am

I just happened to be at the Matrix CW2 forum and moni kerr (whom I find to be reliable) answered this inquiry there - also, I just happened to look at the tooltip again - the tooltip says 'unit'.

AFAIK, a unit is a square thingie in a stack. A Leader is a unit, a Brig Sqdn of two Brigs is a unit, a Div is a unit. A stack is composed of units.

Sharpshooters, loose in a stack, benefit themselves solely, as far as I can tell. They do not confer an initiative bonus on the stack, per se. Perhaps, mechanically, Ol' Choctaw may be right when, in a round in combat, when the SS is firing, there is some kind of perforce 'initiative bonus' bestowed for that round to all 'affected' units in the round, but I am wandering far afield at this point and am speculating.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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