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Captain
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Logistics Question re. Ammo

Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:15 pm

Have a good ammo stockpile in Saint louis 685 but close to zero and cities south (Memphis and Nashville etc) even though large riverine and rail plus own rail network. Food supplies getting through eg 1000 in Memphis.

Has been like this for months.

Any ideas apart from shipping supply wagons from St Louis every turn?

playing Union

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Ol' Choctaw
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Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:07 pm

More depots. 5 regions is as far as pull works. Memphis and Nashville should produce a lot if the industry was built when you took them. Transport ships also carry supply but depots every three regions is likely your best bet and then you need a draw to move it.

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James D Burns
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Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:34 pm

I think 5 is best case, but not guaranteed. In other words in highly developed clear terrain with fair weather supply draw will move supplies 5 regions, but bad weather could see it stuck for months until it clears up. So as he mentions every 3 regions is probably a more reliable system but in really bad terrain with low development I’d go every 2 regions to guarantee reasonable movement of supplies.

Jim

marquo
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Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:04 pm

James D Burns wrote:I think 5 is best case, but not guaranteed. In other words in highly developed clear terrain with fair weather supply draw will move supplies 5 regions, but bad weather could see it stuck for months until it clears up. So as he mentions every 3 regions is probably a more reliable system but in really bad terrain with low development I’d go every 2 regions to guarantee reasonable movement of supplies.

Jim


And sometimes the depots need to be adjacent

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GraniteStater
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Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:51 pm

marquo wrote:And sometimes the depots need to be adjacent


If the code is close to AACW, then No, this is entirely unnecessary. Stacks with Wagons could resupply when in, or adjacent to, Regions with Depots (or Supply sources therein). Also, again, using AACW experience (see my comments in the old AACW thread, "I just don't understand Supply"), if you've got Realistic TuffGuy settings on, then you are gonna need Wagons, Big Time. They help mitigate nasty weather hits for one thing. Also, you need them as a Supply magnet. Wagons & Transports - don't leave home without 'em.

This is more a Union concern, 'cuz CSA units are usually closer to Supply sources - but it still applies. You need Wagons & Transports - need them for effective campaigning.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster

[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898

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Captain
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Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:27 pm

What I'm surprised about is that supply is plentyful but ammo is not. The area I'm looking at is St. Louis to Cairo - I can't imagine that I need to build more depots in this area. I have rail and river and own all the regions.

There is 600 ammo in St. L but zero in Cairo for months now.

Do I need to build more factories? There are large supplies of ammo in NE/MA. Rail and Riverine are not in red.

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GraniteStater
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Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:27 pm

sorta wrote:What I'm surprised about is that supply is plentyful but ammo is not. The area I'm looking at is St. Louis to Cairo - I can't imagine that I need to build more depots in this area. I have rail and river and own all the regions.

There is 600 ammo in St. L but zero in Cairo for months now.

Do I need to build more factories? There are large supplies of ammo in NE/MA. Rail and Riverine are not in red.


If the code is comparable to AACW, then Cities/Towns size 1 or 2 do not request Supply. Check Cairo's size. If nothing else, put Wagons or Transports there - W&T are Supply magnets.

Just an educated guess.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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sorta
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Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:48 pm

Cairo is a size 3 town with level 4 depot. It has 20 ammo and St L has 724. So seems pretty big.

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GraniteStater
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Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:01 pm

Well, to tell ya the truth, I suspected that Cairo was big enough. Hmmm...hafta see the situation in more detail. I'm not the Supply Guru around here, but contributed to some Supply threads and felt I had a workable understanding in AACW. CW2 is different (i. e., better), but a lot of the same approach is still applicable, I believe.

My next post is a copy of my contribution to a Supply thread. I am not entirely correct on every ramification (further discussion on the thread, "I just don't understand Supply" in AACW forum), but am, in the main, on the right track, I think.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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GraniteStater
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Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:07 pm

OLD SUPPLY ESSAY FROM AACW:

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthrea...hlight=waiter:

*****

First, read the Supply Primer so handily stickied.

Now, in a nutshell (I know the Union; the Southern mileage may vary):

Let's take a certain unit you get in southern PA in a 61 start. At first it is locked. It stays locked for about two turns. Then it unlocks. Then you click it to move it and discover that your brand new brave boys, rarin' to go, are starving to death. In Pennsylvania. In the summer.

This is because (a) no Wagon; (b) not next to, or on, a town or city, a Depot. The system knows the unit is there; the system wants to give them supplies, ammo, and so forth, but it can't, because of (a) and (b) just mentioned.

Depots, Forts, Towns of size 3+, Wagons and Transports request Supply. Towns of less than size 3 generate small amounts of Supply, but never request it. The system is a network of pipelines: NYC, Philly, Chicago, etc., generate huge amounts that are pushed along the system of RRs and Roads and Rivers not interdicted by Bad Guys (i. e., MC of 25% or more, not subject to enemy Forts blocking riverine traffic, etc.). The Supply goes to them who ask for it - them's that asks, git.

So you need to be adjacent to, or on, a source of supply, or something that requests supply. If that something is not a fixed Fort, Depot, or 3+ Town/City, it had better be a Wagon or a Transport, cuz otherwise, the waiter ain't takin' your order.

Also, it is important to keep RRs and Rivers up to 100%, Full Capacity, cuz Supply is pushed in three phases and only goes the last mile (like your cable connection at home) if the third and final phase is up to snuff. You can get by with Average, but some guys might not get that extra helping of beans at dinner, cuz the third phase never got to them that turn.

I finally drew the conclusion that if I want to go Reb hunting, I had better darn well make sure I took a Wagon with me. Fire up a 62 start as the USA and check out Burnside, sunning himself on the shore in SC. Go thru two Turns, maybe three. Then check out Burnside - he is about to go poof!, because you didn't build a Depot - Beaufort, SC, is not a 3+ Town, there is no Fort, no Depot. You can park Transports there, that do request Supply, but they will not do the trick, they're too small a capacity, it doesn't work, I know, believe me, I know. The solution to the 'overseas' Burnside problem is to build a Depot there with a Transport unit(s). Then everyone's much happier and has something to eat and something to shoot, cuz the system says, "Hey! I gotta keep that Depot in Supply!" The Shipping Box plays an essential role in this case, BTW.

It's a rough sketch and I'm sure Gray and others could iron out some details, but that's I how I think of it - seems to work.

Goin' huntin'? Take a Wagon. Goin' down Ole Man River to squash Vicksburg? Take Wagons and Transports. Goin' over the seas to land in Mobile and surprise Johnny Reb big time? Wagons and Transports.

Pushin' towards the interior from Nashville? Seize every town and Depot you see, secure your RRs, assert MC and keep the lines open, cuz you gotta keep your Wagons stocked.

Hope that helps. Have a good war and have a good breakfast.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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sorta
Captain
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Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:33 am

Thanks but I still don't see any reason why the huge ammo stockpile in St. Louis would not move to Cairo let alone Memphis and other ports where my aries are. if a human controlled the movement they would have been demoted or shot...

moni kerr
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Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:58 am

It may be that there is just no request for ammo. Supply gets consumed every turn, so there is always a request, but ammo only gets consumed during battles. So if your armies and wagons are all topped up with ammo, then there is request for it and so the ammo will sit in St Louis.

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Jim-NC
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Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:40 pm

This issue has been identified elsewhere. It becomes real acute with seabourne invasions. Apparently, ammo has a lower priority or something, and thus doesn't move that much.
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.
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sorta
Captain
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Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:41 pm

So this is quite a big issue then. I have for example 3.5k supply in N.O. but zero ammo. The same applies to Mobile etc etc.

It makes no sense - in reality the General in charge of logistics would not allow this to happen over months, or would be fired!

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Ol' Choctaw
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Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:58 pm

Are you building your structures? Are you the Union and captured the towns and they have none?

Those towns make a lot of ammo. If you are not using it, then where is it?

Memphis also should be making quite a bit of ammo.

With out seeing the game it is hard to tell what is happening to it all.

What Jim-NC said was so in the early version but more ammo was added. A lot more.

If you are not seeing it then something else is an issue, I think.

sorta
Captain
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Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:00 am

Yes I'm the Union. Captured most main Southern cities. Have tons of rail/riverine and supply but little ammo except in East and around St.L. If teh stockpiles of ammo would be moved then no problem.

Have tons of general supply in southern towns - more than will ever use.

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Ol' Choctaw
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Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:52 am

What structures do you have in those cities and how much ammo are they producing?

Memphis and New Orleans should be producing a significant amount.

Control click the cities and check the tool tips on the building.

sorta
Captain
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Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:33 pm

Memphis has a harbour and depot for a total of 7 ammo production. However I have 724 stored ammo in St. L which needs to be moved south.

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Ol' Choctaw
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Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:46 pm

You moved too fast!

Memphis should have had a lot more building. Those don’t get destroyed when to take them either. You just took it before it could build.

Building another depot level will give you a bit more too.

St Louis is just too far if you don’t have depots and pull all along the route.

I am not saying that is a fix but that is all you can do at this stage.

St Louis may produce a lot but demand is likely going in the other direction with the depots and troops nearer to the city.

More wagons and a fleet there will also create more demand for ammo but you need the depots to pull it to you.

sorta
Captain
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Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:13 pm

Thanks but the reason I started this topic is that the ammo logistics seems to be broken and I haven't heard anything to contradict this, in fact the opposite.

We are now in the realm of 'workarounds' which is fine but, unless I am the only one with the problem, the code needs amending. Transportation works 100% for general supply but 0% for ammo. In the real world rather than shipping 10 units of supply when the depots/armies have a massive surplus the ration would change to say 5 and 5. Hell I'd be delighted if the program sent 1 unit of ammo.


Anyway how does this get fixed?

Thanks

Q-Ball
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Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:18 pm

Playing as CSA, I have found that Virginia basically runs out of Ammo after several large battles. I found myself sending supply wagons to Wilmington, and when that port ran out of Ammo, all the way to Charleston to find some bullets. Regular supply also pulled fine; plenty of it around.

I expanded rail to Average capacity, and never could move anything except manually (by wagon)

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Pocus
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Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:54 am

We are looking at the possible issue!

Please post a saved game with an acute example of the problem (with name of region)
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Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

vonRocko
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:23 pm

Has this been confirmed as a bug? I'm waiting to start a campaign, but not if this is happening.
Thanks.

sorta
Captain
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:58 pm

HST file attached.

I don't want to list all the cities but I have plentiful ammo in the northern cities eg St. Louis and all MA and very little or none in the captured southern ones. Also I have unlimited rail and riverine.

Thanks
Attachments
Frostymas.zip
(294.98 KiB) Downloaded 74 times

vonRocko
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Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:45 pm

"BUMP" Find anything Pocus?
Thanks

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Mickey3D
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Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:46 pm

There is clearly a problem : I'm playing a PBEM and I can see my ammo stock is staying low in Manassas depot after I consume all of it in a few combats. Nothing is coming from Richmond or even deeper in the South.

Z74
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Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:30 pm

Surely Pocus will fix the issue and we're granted a few more goodies in the upcoming hotfix? wink wink! :wacko:

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Pocus
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Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:54 am

Sorry, got sidetracked.

I found the bug. When the general supply stock was super high, the region was happy to not request anything, including ammos. This bug has been there since ... 2007 probably! And the fixes will affect all games executables issued from now on.

For example, Cairo ammo stockpile jumps from a meager 37 to 493 in one turn after the fix :)
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Ol' Choctaw
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Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:45 am

GREAT!!!! :thumbsup:

vonRocko
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Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:54 pm

Good job Pocus! Thank you. That's an old bug, I'm surprised I haven't run into it before. I've played many games of AACW, I guess I was just lucky.

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