User avatar
loki100
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:15 pm
Location: Glasgow
Contact: Website Twitter

Watch me lose Paris

Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:56 pm

Ok, this is an experiment. Someone has suggested some "how to" videos would be good for PoN. I'm less than convinced, but then I am more at ease with text/image (and not completely convinced at the images ... text is the way to go :) ). So as an experiment I'll do the Franco-Prussian war from the French side. If this works out, I'll do a few campaign videos but looking at specifics such as economic management and so on (ie I'll do no more than a couple of turns).

I've not used youtube to host as I have a personal objection to the way that google (and gmail) try to grab my personal data, this is hosted by vimeo.

I doubt its the highest quality as I used the recording mechanism embedded in a screen capture software I use (faststone capture).

At the least, this may help understand some of the quirks of the AGE combat system (it has a classic 'retreat in the most disastrous, if logical, direction) and show how rubbish a player I really am ... all those botched campaigns in 'Manufacturing Italy' that I was able to obscure in the text and with judicious selection of images are now exposed:

[video=vimeo;97420221]https://vimeo.com/97420221[/video]

as a hidden bonus, you can hear one of my cats whinging in the background, he does this if I am the phone too
AJE The Hero, The Traitor and The Barbarian
PoN Manufacturing Italy; A clear bright sun
RoP The Mightiest Empires Fall
WIA Burning down the Houses; Wars in America; The Tea Wars

User avatar
Pocus
Posts: 24778
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:37 am
Location: Lyon (France)

Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:16 pm

I have some left over popcorns. The screen is black for now, I hope I can watch the movie this evening though ;)
Image


Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

r_rolo1
Private
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:53 pm

Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:45 pm

Nice coarse voice ;)

I've given a small look ( will wait for the better quality video that vimeo says it's being uploaded ), but if you need some help regarding software for the recording, feel free to PM me ( I have some experience setting live streams in a semi-professional way, so I think I can giveyou some hints ).

ribaluigi
Sergeant
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:51 am

Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:08 pm

Thanks Loki!

User avatar
loki100
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:15 pm
Location: Glasgow
Contact: Website Twitter

Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:28 pm

Pocus wrote:I have some left over popcorns. The screen is black for now, I hope I can watch the movie this evening though ;)


och and now here is both a prologue and an update ....

r_rolo1 wrote:Nice coarse voice ;)

I've given a small look ( will wait for the better quality video that vimeo says it's being uploaded ), but if you need some help regarding software for the recording, feel free to PM me ( I have some experience setting live streams in a semi-professional way, so I think I can giveyou some hints ).


suffering a little from a kidney infection which might have some impact. But yes, its not great, just used the microphone in the laptop and what I had to hand. Think I need to decide if I am likely to do this on a more regular basis before diving any deeper (but many thanks for offer which I may well take up)

ribaluigi wrote:Thanks Loki!


you're welcome

... so this goes back to that key battle in turn 1 as it allows a good overview of PoN army formation, march to the sound of the guns and the retreat algorithm

in the new bit .... I actually win a battle

[video=vimeo;97440683]https://vimeo.com/97440683[/video]
AJE The Hero, The Traitor and The Barbarian
PoN Manufacturing Italy; A clear bright sun
RoP The Mightiest Empires Fall
WIA Burning down the Houses; Wars in America; The Tea Wars

User avatar
HerrDan
Posts: 1524
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:14 am
Location: Königsberg

Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:09 pm

Very interesting! Later after work I'll take a look at it! I'm really looking foward to hear your cat! ;)

User avatar
Kensai
Posts: 2702
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:54 pm
Location: Freiburg, Germany

Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:36 pm

Great job, loki100! :)
Care to unify Germany as Austria? Recreate the Holy Roman Empire of the 20th Century:
Großdeutschland Mod
Are you tough enough to impersonate the Shogun and defy the Westerners? Prove it:
Shogun Defiance Mod (completed AAR)

wadeyboy
Conscript
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 4:54 am

Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:59 am

Thankyou so much Loki. this is brilliant stuff. I really hope it becomes the start of a series.
I also hope it encourages others to do videos too.
Nice one Loki

User avatar
HerrDan
Posts: 1524
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:14 am
Location: Königsberg

Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:38 am

Amazing Loki, I really loved your cat in the background and I found it very funny when you said "the emperor is going to save us". Tough battle, I'd say, I still have to see the second video though, but it looks like your chances are small with so many prussian armies, and I haven't seen Moltke yet, I would really fear him if I played france... :mdr:

User avatar
HerrDan
Posts: 1524
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:14 am
Location: Königsberg

Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:03 am

Loki, I don't know if you have checked out already, but I've put my save files in the dropbox folder, just to let you know, by the way I think a dropbox might help a lot when we're updating files to improve the game so that the community may have access to it as I can't post some files here on the forums as the fix I did for Q-Kee.

User avatar
loki100
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:15 pm
Location: Glasgow
Contact: Website Twitter

Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:05 pm

HerrDan wrote:Very interesting! Later after work I'll take a look at it! I'm really looking foward to hear your cat! ;)


so pleased people only watch these for the chance to hear one of my cats grumbling :)

Kensai wrote:Great job, loki100! :)


wadeyboy wrote:Thankyou so much Loki. this is brilliant stuff. I really hope it becomes the start of a series.
I also hope it encourages others to do videos too.
Nice one Loki


HerrDan wrote:Amazing Loki, I really loved your cat in the background and I found it very funny when you said "the emperor is going to save us". Tough battle, I'd say, I still have to see the second video though, but it looks like your chances are small with so many prussian armies, and I haven't seen Moltke yet, I would really fear him if I played france... :mdr:


thanks for the comments, as ever, much appreciated. This is certainly, for the French side, a very tough scenario and I think in PBEM you are doomed. However, against the AI you have chances, our beloved Athena is good, but a wee bit incautious some times and in this scenario there are only 20 turns and winter will worsen the Prussian supply lines.

Its good to show how even with the weaker side, the AGE system rewards grim perseverance, there are factors that allow you to overcome brute force. Which leads us neatly to episode 3. They should now be in HD, but even so it might be better to download rather than watch online?

[video=vimeo;97598444]https://vimeo.com/97598444[/video]

But just to stress, the cats were present, but make no direct input this time ... (just to avoid disappointing anyone)
AJE The Hero, The Traitor and The Barbarian
PoN Manufacturing Italy; A clear bright sun
RoP The Mightiest Empires Fall
WIA Burning down the Houses; Wars in America; The Tea Wars

User avatar
HerrDan
Posts: 1524
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:14 am
Location: Königsberg

Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:48 am

Is that your normal voice? By the way talking about retreats, what do you think of changing the minimum control to allow retreat from 0 to 5%?

User avatar
HerrDan
Posts: 1524
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:14 am
Location: Königsberg

Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:19 am

Can't wait to see the next turn! Very good video, but I have to say I missed your cats...you have a quite rough voice, may I ask you your age?

By the way please answer my question above about the retreat rules, I think that an army should have some control over the region it's retreating to, but what do you think?

User avatar
loki100
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:15 pm
Location: Glasgow
Contact: Website Twitter

Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:49 pm

HerrDan wrote:By the way please answer my question above about the retreat rules, I think that an army should have some control over the region it's retreating to, but what do you think?


the code is in 'GameLogic' in vgn\settings, so its fully moddable. Its an interesting file to read as it contains the rules for a number of important interactions (both military and civil) in the game.

Anyway default is:

ctlAllowRetreat = 0 // Minimum control to have in a region to allow a retreat into it
ctlRetreatAdjCity = 5 // Interest in retreating toward a region with a city (per level)
ctlRetreatAdjFort = 30 // Interest in retreating toward a region with a fort (per level)
ctlRetreatAdjDepot = 25 // Interest in retreating toward a region with a depot (per level)
ctlRetreatLandLink = 10 // Interest in retreating toward a region, value per land link
ctlRetreatPrevSubSpaceCoeffH = 250 // Coefficient applied to the interest if the region is the one where we are coming from
cltRetPenaltyPerNmySU = 4 // retreat penalty (in interest pts) for each nmy SU in retreating region


Now the interesting ones are the first line. That says basically ignore MC in a retreat province. I guess its 0 so as to stop stacks just surrendering (as happens with naval landings) if they lose and prevents the common Paradox game strategy of surrounding a large army with masses of small forces.

You could set it higher and it would certainly discourage interest in retreating into an enemy province.

The next four set priority of choice. So if you have a choice a fort &/or depot is the likely choice (which may explain why my armies ignored the Vosges and went to Metz).

The last two amend this. The first weights the province you left by 2.5, so there is a rough bias towards retreating back the way you came - but of course this has no impact if you are moving out of a province having been static the previous turn.

The last adversely weights a province according to the presence and size of the enemy force there (remember that in my instance Metz was empty) - at least that is how I interpret the text.

So if you want to minimise the chances of retreating into enemy territory, then the MC value is the one to adjust. But, be careful as the risk is you leave a force with nowhere to retreat at all.
AJE The Hero, The Traitor and The Barbarian
PoN Manufacturing Italy; A clear bright sun
RoP The Mightiest Empires Fall
WIA Burning down the Houses; Wars in America; The Tea Wars

User avatar
HerrDan
Posts: 1524
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:14 am
Location: Königsberg

Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:19 pm

loki100 wrote:the code is in 'GameLogic' in vgn\settings, so its fully moddable. Its an interesting file to read as it contains the rules for a number of important interactions (both military and civil) in the game.

Anyway default is:



Now the interesting ones are the first line. That says basically ignore MC in a retreat province. I guess its 0 so as to stop stacks just surrendering (as happens with naval landings) if they lose and prevents the common Paradox game strategy of surrounding a large army with masses of small forces.

You could set it higher and it would certainly discourage interest in retreating into an enemy province.

The next four set priority of choice. So if you have a choice a fort &/or depot is the likely choice (which may explain why my armies ignored the Vosges and went to Metz).

The last two amend this. The first weights the province you left by 2.5, so there is a rough bias towards retreating back the way you came - but of course this has no impact if you are moving out of a province having been static the previous turn.

The last adversely weights a province according to the presence and size of the enemy force there (remember that in my instance Metz was empty) - at least that is how I interpret the text.

So if you want to minimise the chances of retreating into enemy territory, then the MC value is the one to adjust. But, be careful as the risk is you leave a force with nowhere to retreat at all.


Thank you very much for the explanation, my main worry is how the AI will be able to cope with this, although if I remember correctly the manual states you need at least 5% of military control to retreat to a region, I'll have a look at it just to be sure. When are you going to post a new video? :w00t:

PS: You didn't tell your opinion, would you change this value yourself in a campaign?

User avatar
loki100
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:15 pm
Location: Glasgow
Contact: Website Twitter

Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:12 am

Well the AI does cope with it, in the sense that it is one of those functions over which the player has no control.

The problem line to me is the MC value. Clearly setting that at say 50% would mean you would rarely see retreats away from the safety of your own provinces. But you would also see more instances were there is no valid retreat route as that line is used to eliminate potential options. So you would see more outright surrenders, such as Napoleon IIII at Sedan, but I think you'd radically change the feel of the game in small unit density/colonial regions. There the inability to trap and destroy your enemy is a key part to the frustration (re fun) of trying to convert military power into a military victory.

So on balance, I prefer it as designed. I think as players we get too convinced about the level of control and the retreat rule and the randomness of stack selection and march to the sound of the guns are all excellent means to weaken our control. Even good generals and well trained armies did silly things.
AJE The Hero, The Traitor and The Barbarian
PoN Manufacturing Italy; A clear bright sun
RoP The Mightiest Empires Fall
WIA Burning down the Houses; Wars in America; The Tea Wars

User avatar
HerrDan
Posts: 1524
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:14 am
Location: Königsberg

Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:29 am

loki100 wrote:Well the AI does cope with it, in the sense that it is one of those functions over which the player has no control.

The problem line to me is the MC value. Clearly setting that at say 50% would mean you would rarely see retreats away from the safety of your own provinces. But you would also see more instances were there is no valid retreat route as that line is used to eliminate potential options. So you would see more outright surrenders, such as Napoleon IIII at Sedan, but I think you'd radically change the feel of the game in small unit density/colonial regions. There the inability to trap and destroy your enemy is a key part to the frustration (re fun) of trying to convert military power into a military victory.

So on balance, I prefer it as designed. I think as players we get too convinced about the level of control and the retreat rule and the randomness of stack selection and march to the sound of the guns are all excellent means to weaken our control. Even good generals and well trained armies did silly things.


Interesting point, but if I would change those values (and the only one I intended to change was the MC requirement anyway) I would change it to 5%, just a small modification anyway, but I'm still not sure about doing it...

User avatar
loki100
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:15 pm
Location: Glasgow
Contact: Website Twitter

Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:33 pm

Ok, here is video #4. I won't make any more recordings of this scenario unless something remarkable happens. My army trapped in Mainz surrendered (this happens with formations out of supply) so in reality the only remaining issue is whether or not Paris can hold out. All very realistic of course.

[video=vimeo;97713056]https://vimeo.com/97713056[/video]

What I will do now is to make a few on economic management, colonial actions etc in the context of the campaign game. That may help people a bit to come to terms with the options in that respect.
AJE The Hero, The Traitor and The Barbarian
PoN Manufacturing Italy; A clear bright sun
RoP The Mightiest Empires Fall
WIA Burning down the Houses; Wars in America; The Tea Wars

User avatar
HerrDan
Posts: 1524
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:14 am
Location: Königsberg

Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:36 pm

loki100 wrote:Ok, here is video #4. I won't make any more recordings of this scenario unless something remarkable happens. My army trapped in Mainz surrendered (this happens with formations out of supply) so in reality the only remaining issue is whether or not Paris can hold out. All very realistic of course.

[video=vimeo;97713056]https://vimeo.com/97713056[/video]

What I will do now is to make a few on economic management, colonial actions etc in the context of the campaign game. That may help people a bit to come to terms with the options in that respect.


Yeah...ok..right..but now what really matters...WHAT ABOUT YOUR CATS? :grr:

Seriously now...really interesting to see it's much easier to have a historical outcome out of this happening (apparently) most of the times, it's basically what I expect in PON in general, to have the historcal outcomes happening most of the times, and by the way it must be a really tough scenario for the french! I mean as you're such an experienced player and even so it seems like it was really hard...

Great to see this kind of videos here in the forums, I think someone could maybe share this into the youtube so that it could maybe bring more people into PON.What's say ya? :sherlock:

User avatar
loki100
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:15 pm
Location: Glasgow
Contact: Website Twitter

Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:30 pm

HerrDan wrote:Yeah...ok..right..but now what really matters...WHAT ABOUT YOUR CATS? :grr:

Seriously now...really interesting to see it's much easier to have a historical outcome out of this happening (apparently) most of the times, it's basically what I expect in PON in general, to have the historcal outcomes happening most of the times, and by the way it must be a really tough scenario for the french! I mean as you're such an experienced player and even so it seems like it was really hard...

Great to see this kind of videos here in the forums, I think someone could maybe share this into the youtube so that it could maybe bring more people into PON.What's say ya? :sherlock:


ah, the cats slept through that recording.

I may try again and see if you can get a draw with the French, in any case I'll play this to the end and report back on the outcome. Thing is it now all comes down to Paris holding out, so very little of interest to watch which is why I think that is a good end point. Obviously in a campaign, you could prepare better, lots of replacements stocked up, better defense in Alsace etc and hope to wear out the Germans. In the scenario you are already (rightly) off balance.

I like that AGEOD don't balance their scenarios (except in terms of victory conditions) so you have weak and strong sides. It makes PBEM with the say AJE easy between players of different experience.

If anyone wants the recordings to stick onto youtube contact me and I'll pop them into a drop box. Its just I don't use gmail and its become very hard to set up a youtube account if you don't.
AJE The Hero, The Traitor and The Barbarian
PoN Manufacturing Italy; A clear bright sun
RoP The Mightiest Empires Fall
WIA Burning down the Houses; Wars in America; The Tea Wars

User avatar
HerrDan
Posts: 1524
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:14 am
Location: Königsberg

Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:02 am

loki100 wrote:ah, the cats slept through that recording.

I may try again and see if you can get a draw with the French, in any case I'll play this to the end and report back on the outcome. Thing is it now all comes down to Paris holding out, so very little of interest to watch which is why I think that is a good end point. Obviously in a campaign, you could prepare better, lots of replacements stocked up, better defense in Alsace etc and hope to wear out the Germans. In the scenario you are already (rightly) off balance.

I like that AGEOD don't balance their scenarios (except in terms of victory conditions) so you have weak and strong sides. It makes PBEM with the say AJE easy between players of different experience.

If anyone wants the recordings to stick onto youtube contact me and I'll pop them into a drop box. Its just I don't use gmail and its become very hard to set up a youtube account if you don't.


Oh I really missed your cats here, I wish they were there meowing :love:

It's great that the scenarions are designed in such a realistic way, they shouldn't be "balanced" at all, as the most fun part is to try hard to get a different result from the one that happened in RL, so that it's always a good challenge to play "the weaker" part in a war.

I'm pretty sure in the long campaign though, France has great chances to win this war, as it's a pretty much different situation when you have years to prepare for the future and become more powerful etc...

I'm really loving to watch these videos you made, it's indeed a very good idea. :)

User avatar
Templer
General
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:33 pm
Contact: Website

Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:47 pm

So great, Looki100!
Thank you.
The Franco-Prussian War 1870-1871 is the only add on I purchased for myself for PON so far.
Greetings
Templer

User avatar
loki100
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:15 pm
Location: Glasgow
Contact: Website Twitter

Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:22 pm

HerrDan wrote:Oh I really missed your cats here, I wish they were there meowing :love:

It's great that the scenarions are designed in such a realistic way, they shouldn't be "balanced" at all, as the most fun part is to try hard to get a different result from the one that happened in RL, so that it's always a good challenge to play "the weaker" part in a war.

I'm pretty sure in the long campaign though, France has great chances to win this war, as it's a pretty much different situation when you have years to prepare for the future and become more powerful etc...

I'm really loving to watch these videos you made, it's indeed a very good idea. :)


I'll do some more videos, maybe this week if I have time, on economic management, so they may well decide to appear.

Its a problem in all games with a strong historical element, you know what is going to happen (roughly) and can prepare carefully for it. There is no way would anyone playing France have their army in such a poor state in 1870.

Templer wrote:So great, Looki100!
Thank you.
The Franco-Prussian War 1870-1871 is the only add on I purchased for myself for PON so far.


Glad to have encouraged you :D

Its actually a good scenario, I think as France you need a bit of luck in that opening phase, but even with it all going as wrong as possible, I still held out till June ... as in the next post
AJE The Hero, The Traitor and The Barbarian
PoN Manufacturing Italy; A clear bright sun
RoP The Mightiest Empires Fall
WIA Burning down the Houses; Wars in America; The Tea Wars

User avatar
loki100
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:15 pm
Location: Glasgow
Contact: Website Twitter

Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:29 pm

I've been meaning to do a wrap up post for a while. I played to the end (well to total defeat), main things were, this character popped up:

Image

Operationally I carried on as I did in the last video trying to disrupt the German supply lines, especially to that army besieging Paris. By the end of March this had been quite successful and that Prussian army had lost about 25% of its power. So I gathered everything I had into a field army, and ordered the Paris garrison forces to sally out in case of battle. Much to my surprise, this happened:

Image

Unfortunately, I then was rather careless. I should have returned all the Paris forces into the city to deter any Prussian assault. Instead I used them with my field force, lost a later battle (my morale was still around 70 compared to their 130), and then, with only a small garrison, the Prussians stormed the city ...

Image

Good fun though. I'd say the scenario takes about 3 hours and well worth replaying, not least to see if either luck, or better gameplay, can eke out a French win (or at least a draw). I'd guess with the Prussians vs the AI its still a bit of a challenge as its incredibly hard to take Paris if the garrison forces are all there.
AJE The Hero, The Traitor and The Barbarian
PoN Manufacturing Italy; A clear bright sun
RoP The Mightiest Empires Fall
WIA Burning down the Houses; Wars in America; The Tea Wars

JWW
Sergeant
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:45 pm

Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:44 am

I greatly appreciated the video series and learned a lot. I am looking forward to any videos you might do on economic management and colonial management.

Return to “PON AARs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests