Manufacturing Italy (a PoN GC)

[loki100]

[CENTER]Regular Reports
[/CENTER]
Manufactures



Main thing there is I am still upgrading key industries (manufactures and luxury goods), hence the fluctuating Private Capital reserve and regular usage.

Non Manufactures



Again not that much to say there. What is not clear is I am shifting my strategy around easily available food goods. First I have shut down my advanced (ie coal using) sites and reverted to those that just need private capital. Second I am making up the gap by imports. So in effect, I am saving my coal as far as I can by either using inefficient agricultural production or indirectly using someone else’s coal stocks via importing.

Should note, the damn Swiss are still on strike.

Population



The leap in militancy and the dip in satisfaction is due to having ordered a partial mobilization at the end of this period. In my estimate, there is no way am I going to be able to handle the Austrians without the boost in numbers.

Beyond that, some not easy to understand adverse moves. Quite a drop in [color="#B22222"]rate of growth of the[/color] overall population (say from 3.01 to 2.94 in the Abruzzo but much the same everywhere) but at least there is a compensating growth in education levels. I forgot to include Tuscany in the second round of images but the trend is much the same as elsewhere.

Army



I’ve been adding more artillery and another infantry corps but I was relying on mobilization producing a number of ‘reserve’ formations [1]. As you can see, mobilisation, plus my pre-war investments has given me decent replacement pools.

My guess is this is going to be a very attritional war and the quicker I can replace my losses (ie have the chits to hand) then the less chance I have of actually losing elements and complete formations.


[CENTER]Events[/CENTER]

Colonies

Qatar is becoming rather contested as the British build up their colonial presence there.



In N Africa I slowly gain the upper hand with the revolt by the ‘tribe that likes pink’. This has been a long grinding campaign as I lack the numbers to really hammer one of their formations so have concentrated on slowly squeezing them back.



I discover some more of E Africa



Again both are out of the regions I am currently interested in so I’ll suspend any further activity for the moment.

Anyway at the end, not so much a revolt as Nyamwezi declares war on me, undoing all that colonial development.



This is a problem as I have no army in the region and Umberto is still involved with the Yemeni revolt.

King

Well VE2 goes and dies and Umberto takes over. Umberto is currently winning the colonial war in Yemen and I have no intention of letting him near the army on one of the critical battle fronts. I mean yes, impressive moustache, but really rubbish stats.



Apparently a shopping trip to Milan was involved in VE2's demise. See how evil the Austrians are. They have to be punished.



Now one effect is that Italy changes some of its National Attributes. Those two seem to have changed but all the others are the same. At this stage I was saving up militancy reducing decrees for when I needed them (ie post mobilisation) - hence the 3 available that I haven't passed.



Also the man with the impressive beard gets the sack … for now



The new one doesn’t like the Austrians, but that beard is so … metrosexual that one has doubts.


Research



Another new ship type unlocks and will be deployed against the non-existent Austrian navy. Mass Market Entertainment is another tech that increases consumption and Standard Time is another mystery (though it says it unlocks a new option).

Prestige



Now just over 1000 behind the USA. Judging by the NM shifts, it appears that the Prussians are still winning against GB but still no sign of an actual war going on anywhere.

Worth noting my total losses just on the verge of war with Austria are 900,000, I guess they will appear on this list once the war is on … and I can see just what I am at war with.




Oh yes, war with the Austrians, well here is the OOB



Here’s an overview of the options. Clearly my first move will be to capture the Veneto and Lombardia. I’ve marked out the borders of Sud-Tirol as that is, in operational terms, critical. It borders not only the two Po valley provinces but also Udine, so if I hold it that means my armies can operate in that region and will mutually support in case of combat. It is also mountainous, so makes for good defensive terrain.



One reason for so many individual formations was I was expecting a number of reserve units to mobilise and I would then brigade them with the regulars.

My fleet will blockade the Adriatic - you can do this from port by setting an order to engage with passing ships.



At this stage I don’t know much about the Austrian army. They have 3 large formations in the immediate region.



I’ve seen another column of around 3000 power sometimes in the mountains. So it looks like their border army is around 6-7,000. There must be more, and I guess that will expand on mobilisation. What I am hoping for is a real qualitative edge. A lot of my commanders have gained from the Ottoman wars as have a lot of units (with quite decent experience levels). Reserve formations lack some of the organic artillery of the regulars and, as is clear, my army is backed by masses of guns.

I can’t see any evidence of a fleet.

And here we go



[1] – I didn’t gain any reserve units. I’m really not sure if this is WAD or a bug, as the tooltip for the partial mobilization option implies that you gain additional units. When we come to the war, it will be pretty clear that the Austrians did indeed gain extra units with their mobilisation. But on the other hand, it maybe related to my ‘professional’ army.

[loki100]

Well, this makes me rather sad. On the other hand: Great progress! What's next, after those scuffles in Africa have been settled? Egypt? More of Arabia? Given your progress, you could be adding King of Jerusalem to your titles. The pope should be pretty happy about the success of this new crusades!

I know what you mean, win and I think its a case of using the game mechanics to my advantage, lose and I am boxed into the colonial game (unless Austria faces utter disaster at some stage)

Hmm, let's hope that more artillery and better trained troops does the trick. The fact that you've got 12,500 pwr in total to the 6-7,000 pwr the Austrians have immediately in front of you suggests that Italy is going to be heavily outnumbered in this war.

Good luck, avanti Italia!

My plan was to use that opening advantage and see if I could catch and damage one of their border armies. I did well enough but didn't really inflict any fatal damage. But there is a lot of evidence on the way as to just how much the PoN battle mechanics favour the defender.

I do love how you claim that A) the opening of the Galeria was responsible for the death of Vic and B) that the Austrians were somehow responsible for that. Without anything even close to a shred of evidence. Goebbels would've been proud, but he would point out you need to repeat it a few hundred times before people are truly convinced.

Your new Prime Minister's beard seems 'inspired' by Trotsky's facial fuzz. That either means he's looking to export the Italian revolution abroad (presumably into Austria - yay!), or that he's the leader of a Left-Opposition Fascist Terrorist cell intent on wrecking the state and killing [s]Stalin[/s] Umberto. I'd be wary of him.

The option associated with 'Standard Time' must surely be a decree to make the trains run on time.

Okay, enough with this malarkey. It's a shame to see that colonial war in the depths of Africa. I doubt your colony is going to hold out very long against the Nyamweze. Will make for a good rallying cry down the road, though, when you take on the Italian Burden of civilizing the African Interior. Assuming you make it out of your Austrian war in one piece.

I look forward to the war. If you can get a large enough force into Sud-Tirol soon enough, I think you'll be fine and you'll be able to bleed the Austrians. on the other hand, if the Austrians can flood their big stacks into that province first... Things might get hairy sooner rather than later.

You are right, grabbing Sud-Tirol is key, not least its Alpine terrain so you get a big defensive boost and have very limited frontage, so a small army can fend off a large one for some time.

My efficient Italian trains already run on time, I fear you are mixing us up with the inefficient Swiss

I rather liked my chain of logic - you have to admit that VE2 did die, at pretty much the same time as he went shopping in Austrian held Milan ... I mean that just has to be suspicious

I wonder what's going in with the mobilisation decree? One thing about this game is that there is no shortage of new puzzling game mechanics

Regarding colonial things anything with a black flag means no one owns the region so you are safe to move a unit in and gain Military control or at least that is my experience ie Nairobi

The Austrians are next on my target list so you can bet I will be following the next set of posts closely. Definitely a wise strategy to gain control of the mountainous regions early and hopefully the Austrians will break themselves on them ( unless they come up with one of those 12000 power super stacks of course!). Good hunting!

oddly when I had the option to rerun the mobilisation decree I got a load of reserve formations - they are not great but help fill out the front and secure the rear.

That African "colonial" rebellion could not come in a worse time. And the UK does not have anything better to do than upping their bids in Arabia, say, like fighting the Prussians ?

On the Italian affairs ( and besides the human wave the game gave you ), your plan is standard stuff ( not that you can do things much differently ... geography constrains things up ). It all depends of how fast the Austrians will get to Italy proper. If you can occupy in satisfying numbers the Sud Tirol - Veneto line, you are pretty much assured that you'll win, because even if the thing stalemate there, you can open a Balkan front easily with your naval control over the Adriatic. If you can't , well, things can go south fast ...

P.S Gari and his G 'Army .. Nice involuntary pun ( I know, all game naming conventions ... but it is funny anyway )

Yep the G-men will be in action pretty soon.

In the next update I'll cover that revolt but in truth I just have to let it run its course and then slowly start re-asserting control. I have a small revolt in the Sahara and Umberto (plus the regulars) is still clearing up in Yemen.

Again, agree, there is no scope for manouvre or much finesse, its really a case of grabbing an decent defence line and hoping the Austrians then take the bait.

Well lets hope the Austrians have an Ottoman Stomach for war. As you suggest the lack of reserve formations is likely linked to your use of a Professional Army. You may however have an advantage in Quality over the Austrians if they rely on Mobilized formations to hold the line.

I later find the reserve units are pretty low quality stuff and lack artillery. So I have a number of decent commanders (G is 6-6) and a lot of my units have 3-4 experience points. That does seem to give me some chance in terms of dealing with superior numbers, but this is going to grim and scary stuff.

[color="#FF0000"]So that completes the second block of reports, just a few for the opening battles of the war and then I can go back to posting new material ...[/color]

[loki100]

Well I’ve done it. In truth my response to sending that DOW was to save and not open the game for a couple of days. I realise this makes no sense, but I have the feeling that, even more than the first Ottoman war, this is going to be the game defining event. Win, and I should have the Italy of the 1914 borders (I doubt I will get more), lose and I guess it’s best to focus on the E Med and the Empire.

I’ll split this update over 2 (both covering the six months). Since I guess you might be interested, first will be the campaign in N Italy. At this stage the war was one of isolated battles followed by a lull, it will, believe me, get more intense as we go into 1879 and I’ll break the action down into smaller blocks.

The second of these updates will, of course, cover domestic issues and the colonial wars.

Austro-Italian War

First thing I checked what the war score needed for my main targets.



Well given my experience with the Ottomans, to gain the 365 I need for my two main goals is going to involve raising the tricolore in Wien.

I’ll put the replacement reports in here



Since I received no reserve formations on mobilisation I am raising 2 new line infantry corps (when I repeated the process later in 1879 I did gain a load of reserve formations). The ship is my first modern (for the 1870s) battleship.

As you can see, in this six month period I managed to absorb my losses and repair units as fast as possible. This was helped as the battles were broken up by periods of inaction.

So to the campaign.

Given the number of Prussians wandering around, all the Italian units are given careful lessons in how to tell the difference between a Berlin and Viennese accent – I really do not want any accidental declarations of war.

I catch an Austrian cavalry division at Venice and a larger Austrian force near Milan



Clearly the language lessons paid off as there are no dead Prussians to be found.

A rather reassuring start to the war and if the war carries on like this I’ll be in Vienna by Christmas.

So after the opening attacks, I hold the Po valley, but there is a large Austrian army in Sud-Tirol. Now that province is key to my plans, but there is no way am I going to attack.



With this, briefly the war settled down to a stalemate. By early August I manage an early view as to the size of the Austrian army



If I can conduct the early stages of this war on the defence in terrain of my choice, that is not too bad. However, I suspect, if this follows the pattern with the Ottomans, that their army will grow.

So while I really want the Sud-Tirol this seems to be a good chance to try and take Udine which falls rapidly.

As news of this latest victory is digested, I receive a series of news. The first peace offer from Austria, confirmation that Prussia has not backed its ally, but news that Austria has mobilised



So it looks like none of their potential allies has backed them.

By early September there is evidence the Austrians have fallen back to Innsbruck, this is too good a chance to miss so the army that was at Milan moves into the Sud-Tirol/Alto Adige



An Austrian rearguard is quickly dislodged



Leaving this situation



Since the only Austrian army in the region is in the Sud-Tirol I decide to gamble by pushing Garibaldi to Laibach while another army tries to storm Trieste. This ends in a monumental disaster:



Yes I did just lose over 55,000 men and they lost 50,000.

At least this disaster is balanced by taking the Austrian fort in the Sud-Tirol.



After that I pull back to recoup at Udine and Garibaldi is ordered back from his now rather exposed position, beating off an Austrian attack as he does so.



Yes that new Austrian army is .5 million, still that battle cost them almost 50,000 losses and 10,000 prisoners. Given that they outnumber me in artillery but I am still winning the ranged duel I guess I have a real tech advantage in that area at least.

Obviously, Austria’s mobilisation has rather changed the balance of power



So far I have lost around 100,000 and they have lost 175,000 (plus 105,000 prisoners). However in terms of NM shifts, they have gained (though I still have a massive bonus), I think due to the disaster at Trieste.

Still end of period



In effect, my entire army (still around 10,000 power) is in Udine and Sud-Tirol with 2 powerful (but separated) Austrian armies of 5,000 each threatening me. Given the power ratio there must be more Austrians, I’d guess at least another 20,000 in power, somewhere.

I am starting to think I’ve started a fight with someone much bigger than me

[loki100]

Before I start on detailed feedback I've had a rethink about the update process during this war. In effect, i somehow suspect people don't really care about variations in my fish stocks unless that directly impinges on the war itself. So what I'll do is to shift to a series of time bounded reports that only sketch in domestic/colonial events of any real note. That way I can concentrate on the war, and varying the amount of time each update covers according to the intensity of the fighting.

As is clear, this is a bit of a game defining gamble. Win and i think Italy will become very powerful, lose and its a case of being the mistress of the East Med and East Africa.

Holy molly, that's an awful lot of Austrians! Good thing the Prussians didn't join the war, otherwise you would be toasted!
Assuming battles work roughly like in RUS I think you should be able to hold on to Milano (since you bothered to say Wien and not Vienna you should be able to say Milano and not Milan! Yes, I am an angry Italo-French) and Venezia. Whether you'll be able to push forward though is a completely different task, one that seems downright impossible to me right now.

It makes me question the viability of opening a second front in the Balkans as this would allow the Austrians to bring their superior numbers to bear, something not feasible in the constricted battlefield of northern Italy.

Is there a mechanic like in CK2 where you gain warscore by holding on to your objectives? Otherwise I can't fathom how you will be able to force the Austrians to cede Veneto and Lombardia.

Still, I wish you the best of luck in what seems to be a grim struggle. Remember those immortal words:

"You see Italians never lose,
If we're dead, we're dead so nobody cares,
If we win we've won,
If we run away we can always come back later
so Italians never lose you see?"

Oh, also congratulation for the easy win against the Ottomans. It's nice to see that unlike in EU3 a nation can be devastated in the long term by war.

What, you're saying I only appear when there's a war update? Well, what can I say, I like offering BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

edit: By the way, what is this purple-colored artillery counter I see in the casualties list of the battle of Festung Triest? Are you somehow using artillery from another nation?

Well as I come from a Scots-Italian family (this is quite common in Glasgow as a lot of Italians arrived in the 1920-30s, a lot fleeing fascism) I know what you mean about anglicising, even worse I am an inconsistent user ...

Yes there are a couple of mechanics that over time allow you to lever a certain warscore up. First it does go up, especially if you hold the capital (that was key to my Ottoman wars), over time. Second, if you hold a province to which you have a legitimate claim it may flip to your control (at least this is what will seem to happen with Lombardy). Third if your NM>125 and the enemy <65, then for a given warscore they may be willing to give you more than you earn - they will be facing large scale domestic dissent at that stage.

The different colours reflect which Italian minor built the unit originally (this seems to show in particular for artillery) but I also am using captured Ottoman & Austrian guns.

Uh-oh...

Killing Austrians by the bucketload is all good, but those 5,000 power stacks (with more somewhere in the hinterlands) are disturbing. Hopefully, the Austrians will decide that they need to dislodge you from the mountains of Sud Tirol, rather than taking the easier roads that lead through the plains of the Po.

I'm impressed that Gari beat back a force nearly three time his own size (and note his stats: 6-6-6. Hmm, time to revisit my "G'Harry" comment?). So, as long as Big G is in charge, you'll be okay?

the Big G (or, as you say, G'Harry) becomes a 6-7-7 pretty soon. The Austrians suffer for frontage so we will see a fair few battles end like that. The threat is that they can (& will in places) just overwhelm me, but in a short 1 day battle they cannot put their army into the firing line. So I end up with equal numbers in contact, far better commanders and a pretty good army (most of the infantry are 3/10 on experience).

My firm hope is that they want Sud-Tirol rather than Venice ...

The Udine salient aside, you've got a very solid defensive position with Sud-Tirol and the river in front of Venezia. If you can hold those down relatively easily against superior numbers there may be some hope yet for a viable second front in Dalmatia, especially if you do in fact have a technological advantage.

Let's hope the swell in Austrian power is in second rate soldiers, and not regulars. I believe in you!

I actually pull back from Udiine as I decide I really want the security of the Isonzo to shore up my defense in the plains. But I do gamble on a distraction at Split, anything to make them split up their main army

Good luck.

Can you convince the Balkan countries to join the war? Or perhaps Russia?

unfortunately not. At this stage the 1878-9 Balkan war hasn't fired. Equally the game only seems to allow defensive alliances, but I would be so grateful if Russia would kindly like to step in

I'm still not experienced in reading PoN battle reports, but it appears that at the battle of Trieste you wiped out all of the Austrian stack save for 40 cannons. Is this correct, or did they have outside help which made the defeat inevitable even if you'd destroyed all their initial forces?

Outnumbered 3 to 1 in power terms. It could be worse, and as you say, you can afford to stand on the defensive somewhat now that you're occupying Austrian land.

You are right. Some of the AGE games have had a bug with sieges where a rump artillery unit will hold out. it doesn't seem to affect PoN so I think I ran out of cohesion at the last moment and broke off. The alternative is those damned Prussians lounging on their towels by the beach confused the game engine.

But yes, if needs be, I'll stand and hold what i have, this is as good a defense line as I will ever have so I may as well make the best of it.

Wow I can see why you declared war and left it a couple of days this is definately the pivotal point for your Italy. Looks like you got lucky with Austria's allies (with friends like those who needs enemies:cool . It seems slightly bizarre that Baden actually gained 50 prestige points for not declaring war (those minor countries definately aren't at war with you right?)!

I think one thing I can be sure of this war will not be short. As mentioned above looks like you have managed to set up a decent defensive postion I wonder though how long it will take to wear down the Austrians by staying purely on the defensive particularly as you haven't cut off a major part of their industry and consequently they can continue to churn out replacements? The other tricky part I see will be acquiring the war score it might be that you have to settle for one instead of both provinces?

That battle/slaughter at Triest I'm guessing you were looking to take it quickly without making any breaches first? Was that a full guard corps destroyed or were there some elements left to recover? Still other than that you have gotten the best of every other battle so far so looks good long term.

On the economic side if you haven't done so already it might be worth building on both the silk resources in Milan and Venice if it is going to be a long war you might as well earn some PC from those provinces.

I took a look at the partial mobilisation decision looks like it only has a chance of success when your country is at war (might explain why you didn't get anything from the first try).

I know this is a bit down the road but if you are successful against Austria and take your objectives will you still see the game out as a lot of the challenge will have gone?

As always a great update to read with my morning coffee.

Fortunately I only lost 1 division in the corps counter so in theory it can regenerate over time, but yes I gambled on storming it off the march.

If I win (& its a big if), I think I will need to repeat the exercise to get the rest of 1919 Italy (even if I can't then claim Split). From that point, I think I need to start to prepare for the war with GB, so push naval modernisation hard and then build up a decent combat fleet (for home defense and to support an invasion of India). That will take time. I also want to see what the late game economy looks like.

Actually I worked out later that Baden and Wurtemburg had honoured their alliances with Austria ... only another 1500 power for me to worry about

Oh.






My.



The only way to win a war is by offensive action, which you (rightly) are currently foregoing until things develop more in your favor. My personal preference has always been for the strategy of Belisarius and von Manstein - the 'backhand blow' in which you tempt an opponent into an attack and, after wrecking his assault, roll up the now-disorganized armies. You problem will be finding sufficient reserves with which to prosecute the (hopefully) inevitable counter-blow. I am encouraged to see that you are able to replace your losses, and further encouraged to hear you say you may have some technical advantages. An 'iron storm' of artillery fire sounds like a great way to wear down the Austrian regulars. Here's hoping the Austrians wade right in and bleed right out... and here's hoping the mass of Austrian troops are no better or more patriotic than they were in WW1.

Waiting for the Austrian AI make a mis-step will be nerve-wracking (trust me - I know - I'm currently watching the German army like a hawk and hoping for a chance to strike) but absolutely necessary. I wish for you Napoleon's 'coup d'oeil' for if you move to early - or too late - you will court disaster.

If you can spare the troops - even a small number - I highly recommend you adopt a raiding strategy in Dalmatia or bribe a Balkan country to join your side. Anything to encourage the AI to spend its numerical advantage garrisoning long stretches of border a long way away from the Po valley.

Of course the 'golden bullet' would be Russia's entry on your side, but I'm sure you have already thought of that.

I'd so love a Russian DOW, that would distract the Austrians wonderfully. Staying on top of my replacement costs is one of my key goals. Do that and you can sustain a lot of combat with no (or few) lost elements, start to drop behind and sooner or later your army will just collapse.

This is one of those stages with an AGEOD game when you have to keep repeating to yourself = 'McClellan (?) was right, Hooker was wrong' and just be patient. Exploit the bias to the defense and use terrain as you can. My artillery is again going to be very important in equalising the odds - they have more but it is clearly less effective.

I do start raiding on the Adriatic, anything for some easy VPs/National Morale and hopefully to distract what is coming my way

Hmmm I think this war may have been an huge mistake.

yep ... its what I thought, especially by Summer 1879

[loki100]

So the start of 1879 sees the Eastern Alps blanketed in snow:



With the threat of additional Austrian units, the Italians pull back behind the Isonzo. A defence resting on the rivers and the Dolomite chain seems to be the best option for now. It was not clear how that force would be committed but, despite the conditions, in a warning of the horrors to come, the Austrians manage to launch an attack on the still entrenching Italians around Trientino.



By the time they broke off, over 15,000 Austrians lay dead in the snows [1]. With that the war briefly falls back into a lull. In the meantime Italy is fully occupied with Russians, Trains, Colonies and Beards.

The Italian government is briefly distracted from the war by the arrival of the Tsar on his latest Mediterranean cruise. [2]



The population seems to have put to one side their annoyance at the call up of the reserves and are increasingly supportive of the war effort. The former Austrian provinces seem to have a few unpatriotic individuals who wish for the return of their old masters.



Few things to note there. For some reason any of my potential provinces I occupy show up in my national provinces list (so there must be a geographical connection part to this logic). Second I have a confession. That third column from the right is not total population (as I’ve been claiming) but the rate of growth, the final column is total population of working age. Its good to see Italy reproducing at such an impressive rate – I am going to need the manpower.


And despite the needs of war, a new high speed train line is planned from Rome to Turin.



I think the main advantage of this is it will increase the transportation multiplier for production. So I’ll run a line that links my main industrial centres. This is too expensive (for now) to place everywhere.



Equally the news from the colonies forms a welcome distraction. In both Yemen and Somalia there is a gradual increase in the level of urbanisation.



And the region to the south of Libya becomes an Italian protectorate.



And the Italian control in Palestine is extended to cover Jordan



The man with the huge beard returns to lead the nation in its moment of need.



However, by the end of February, the relative calm is shattered as spring melts the snow.



In addition Croatian nationalists report the presence of the bulk of the Austrian army.



The only reassuring element is they also report stories of starving Austrian soldiers desparately seeking food.- the final (green) bar indicates they have a supply shortage.

Early March sees a renewed attempt by the Austrians to force the Dolomites.



This proved to be another isolated attempt to test out the Italian defense, but this time 7,000 Italians lay dead in the trenches along with 20,000 Austrians.

In an attempt to distract the Austrians, the marines are ordered to capture Split.


However, even as the marines set sail, news arrives of a renewed Austrian offensive. The war is about to explode into one of the bloodiest conflicts in recent European history.



Steadily the death toll was increasing and this time a substantial number (32,000) Austrians surrendered. Any hope this marked an end to their commitment to the war was soon to be dashed. This was but an indication of what was to come across that warm, awful, summer of 1879.



In a period that had seen little but the two armies probing for weaknesses some 17,000 Italians and 65,000 Austrians had died. Since the start of the war, losses were around 360,000 for both sides combined.

[1] – in all these reports the totals are meaningless (they are all that is the province or eligible to fight – ‘march to the sound of the guns’). In reality, the frontage is such (Alto Adige/Sud-Tirol) is such that only 4 formations on my side (& usually 3 of theirs) can actually fight. So I can rotate damaged formations into the line when facing a multi-day assault.
[2] – this really surprised me, but they still will not sign a defensive treaty

[loki100]

just a quick comment - I've got attrition off for the AI, on for the player (which does indeed place a limit on my feasible army size but I guess frees the AI). My guess is that at war start the Austrian regular army was around 18,000 power (mine was about 12,000) so I think that horde is their mobilisation. If I understand it, your mobilisation pool is greater depending on your army type and their are more than one type of mobilisation cards you can play (beyond my limited mobilisation).

But I do find they struggle to bring that mob to bear due to logistical problems - actually the AI simply breaks it up and sends a lot back to Wien and uses the balance.

That's a [s]quarter[/s] three-quarters of a million Austrians (and assorted other ethnicities, presumably) throwing themselves at and/or off the cliffs of the Dolomites... Scary numbers. And while you say the small frontage means they can't commit all their troops, what works for you (rotating units in and out of combat) would presumably also work for the Austrians. So how are you going to kill off their elements?

I do notice in the final screenshot that the relative Austrian combat power rating has dropped from 300 to 254. Since the battles in Italy weren't that costly (compared to what they could have been), I assume that means their armies are undersupplied and feeling the strain. Perhaps that doomstack in Croatia managed to doom itself...

Translating losses into lost elements (or in my case avoiding the loss of elements) is one of my main goals. I can't do much to them (in some combat rounds I obviously won big time and took prisoners as well as inflicted losses) but I can rotate my units as much as possible. If you think March was bad, just look at April and May.

I think the main reason for the relative decline in the ratio is I started to build 2 fresh infantry corps (& more artillery ... I really like artillery in this game), so I guess that helped. Its also a bit opaque as to how much that number reflects temporary loss of combat power say due to supply or organisation difficulties.

Unfortunately, they managed to solve their supply problems ...

You can't afford too many victories like the first battle of Trient in this update. A one to three casualty ratio is pretty near to the overall balance of forces. The second round was much more in your favour though (especially given the prisoner numbers), so the war is still looking winnable.

The Austrian prisoners don't seem to appear in the "Prisoners take & our losses" part of the last screenshot. The figure under the Austrian flag has gone down since the last update.

Ideally, in number terms, I need nearer 4-1, since I have a real qualitative advantage the raw power ratio doesn't really reflect their dominance in terms of numbers. But I still have masses of conscripts so I can rebuild and absorb my losses (& a much better economy than they have). I have to hope that economic problems, plus a worsening NM, weakens their ability to put new armies in the field (in effect, but more bloodily, what I did to the Ottomans first time around) - useful reminder that this is, at its core, an economic game.

Well, that's a bit disappointing. It looks like the Austrians are banging on a wall. A wall that hit back. I actually wished you were defeated - if only for this game to be even more historical

In addition, I was thinking of creating a "SP war pool" for PoN. Basically, players play SP until they are in an (interesting) war, and this point the opposing side is taken over by a player in the pool under the end of the war. That would make war more difficult, and thus "realistic"

Of course, the only issue is that for now I don't play PoN

Yeah, the AI is rather single minded and but then it doesn't have a lot of choice. It either surrenders but the warscore/NM system prevents the AI from doing what a human would do ... and just cut your losses. When it can use manouvre it does, but my whole operational plan was to create a defense line where mobility was restricted.

Nice to see you holding the line without (for now) too much trouble.

It looks to me that the Austrian army is just too damn big for the Austrian state to be able to sustain it. In real life in 1880 Austria-Hungary had a population of 37 millions. Counting those two gigantic armies they must have probably 3 million men in arm, and that's not counting reservists and garrisons. 10% of your population in the army in a period where industrialization was still far from having reached its apex seems like a proper recipe for economic suicide. Even during WWI Austria mobilized over the course of 4 years 6 million men (a bit more than 10% of its population), and we know how hungry the average Austrian soldier was at the end.

We will see whether the Austrian state will be able to sustain the economic burden of this war or will just collapse on itself.

I thnk they have about 1.4 million in the field (plus garrisons that spawn on need), but yes you are spot on. I'm waging economic war here, my economy is stronger and my NM is higher. So in the end I am hoping for a 1918 collapse, but the road to that is going to be littered with a lot of (electronic) corpses. Equally, all they need is to overwhelm me once and I am in deep trouble.

My guess would be that this is due to the fact that Loki100 is playing with the 'realistic attrition' setting turned 'off'. With that setting turned on, armies will need replacements even when at peace, thus naturally limiting the size of armies because of manpower rotation. Without, there is practically no upper limit to army size with relation to population when at peace...

I think they have 2 rounds of mobilisation pushing up their army size - they seem to have more cards for different levels of mobilisation than I do - makes sense as theirs is a conscript army and mine is based on regulars.

[loki100]

These two months set the tone of the war for the rest of 1879. Briefly Italy expanded its control to Udine, Trieste and the entire Adriatic coast but the need to find some means to hold the relentless Austrian offensive in the Dolomites meant all the armies were pulled back behind the Isonzo and rotated in and out of the slaughter to the north.

I won’t show you every battle as it was endless, but April started with



And then we got:



Yep, 10 major assaults, all held at a rough loss ratio of 3-1. Sooner or later, I fear my armies will crack as they have around 1.1 million supporting this offensive.

While that was going on, part of the Italian army struck at Trieste



Now I’d ordered that before the Austrian offensive so now one of my main formations is out of position for the Dolomite battles. So I can’t actually afford to hold onto what has cost me a lot of blood to take. However, by mid-April, the Italian army occupied an arc along the Adriatic coast (the marines have captured all the non-fortified towns), Udine and into Trentino-Alto Adige.



And losses for both sides are escalating



I’ve included my replacement need as an indication. So I need to raise lots of replacements, but also face the difficulty in feeding them to the units actually holding the line (I start rotating the units in the Dolomites in and out so they have chance to recover). However, the Austrians have now lost almost half a million men, 250,000 in the last 2 weeks.
I opted to abandon Trieste, and concentrate in Udine. By early May I pull back the reserves into the Veneto so my flank is protected by the Isonzo. Late April sees more slaughter in the Dolomites.



Almost half a million dead, again in a roughly 4-1 ratio and at last they start to lose elements (this makes sense as they cannot take on supply or replace while in a province I am contesting). Amidst all the news from the Dolomites, it was almost easy to miss a famous victory by the Marines



Despite the string of victories, some Italian units were on the verge of collapse and fresh infantry corps, plus more artillery were being trained to replace shattered and exhausted formations.



The desperate need for a chance to rest and recover was denied, as the Austrians attacked yet again throughout May.



I mentioned before that the raw numbers in these battles is misleading. Here is one round in more detail, as you can see 4 Italian formations actually fought 3 Austrian units:



That goes some way to explaining how this fighting can be sustained. We both can cycle fresh units in on a very narrow frontage. But also the notional weight of the Austrian army is negated by the mountainous terrain.



So at the start of June, there are two major Austrian armies. The one stuck into Trentino is starting to suffer serious losses (the red bar) and is low on supply (the third green bar), at some stage they will need to break off. But of course the second force at Klagenfurt can simply replace it. At least I have reinforcements on the way.
The central Dolomites were not living up to their romantic German name (Rosengarten) but to their more descriptive Italian (Cattanacio) as the small villages and rugged peaks of the Val di Fassa ran red with blood.

[loki100]

The war looks more like the italian front of WWI than anything else...

Except that the roles are reversed here. It's the Austrians who are constantly trying to break through the Isonzo with our brave Loki holding them off for who knows how long. Let's hope the Russians take the hint and finally grab this occasion to back stab Austria.

What's the Austrian NM like? It must around be 75 right? With an oversized army and a mediocre economy they should sooner or later collapse I hope. I give them (optimistically) one year (summer 1880) before they won't be able to stop you marching on Wien.

In real life I'd guess the Austrians would have already given up, surely Northern Italy isn't worth almost a million casualties and counting. With the added threat of Russia and Prussia (not the Ottomans anymore of course) staying longer in this war would be begging for a disaster.

I think the WW1 analogy is perfect. Generally the PoN battle resolution seems to yield high losses (high attack values against unprotected targets, plus often quite large armies), what I am showing here is that linked to leadership+terrain+the defense bonus creates the means to stop an offensive dead in its tracks. At the time, the European powers tended to ignore the implications of the American Civil War (dismissing it as a war of armed mobs) and read too much into the limited wars in Europe. But already everyone is using rifles, there are crude machine guns and artillery is starting to kill at range (even if still using direct fire) so all the signs were there.

As to the war ending, if I win big time, but the only way to convince the game engine is to utterly crush Austria I will intervene to end it, using a combination of a war score related peace and some additional swaps. I am starting to think a fair prize is the two Po provinces and the Sud Tirol.

I agree with Matnjord: a lot like World War I, but it's the Austrians who are battering themselves senseless against your lines. At this point, I suspect that their bleeding of NM is probably the most enduring effect of all these battles. The casualties are horrendous, yes, but the Austrians seem to have enough bodies to keep up the attrition for a while (and the more people/elements you kill, the less their supply becomes a problem). So hopefully all the NM lost will start to hurt them soon.

Really, really ugly casualties on both sides. The real question if if you can rest your units enough and have enough replacements to keep rotating them, since the Austrians still have enough to make the odds not too bright.

And it would be really nice if you could open a Vienna push from the Adriatic, but I assume that is still far out of the realms of the possible :/

I think I have blunted their opening wave (problem is they get more soon), so I need to be less cautious. But even so, I just don't dare split my armies up, they have enough, especially out of the constricted space of the Alps, to really overwhelm an isolated army if they get lucky.

With those levels of casualties for negligible gains one would certainly hope that Austrian national morale would crack, and crack in time to do you some good. But given the performance of the Ottomans in your first Balkan war, one must defer hope until the evidence shows it is attainable. I quite agree with the previous posters that you need Russia to take a hand but I suspect you will have to fight on without them. A Russian back-stab would benefit you and likely gain the Russians a sweeping victory, but might also bring in the Prussians, which could be bad. My advice here is fight until you win or are sure you will lose, and if the latter then don't prolong the war overmuch.

Wow. Just... wow. A human player would have folded or found a way around your position by now, but the AI just keeps on coming. It is greatly to be regretted that your amphibious operations in Dalmatia didn't draw at least a corps away from the Bloody Catanaccios - I had high hopes for that manuever but the AI seems, well, fixated. The Austrians keep reaching for a bigger hammer, and so far they have been able to find one...

So... if the Austrians keep coming, can you hold? And how soon can those two new infantry corps get up to the front?

Again agree. I can't see a human player either making their attacks or carrying on the war. It would be time to bow to the forces of nationalism and accept a loss of their final Italian lands.

Fortunately in June they broke off - I think their advanced army was running low on supply and ammo (I had a few problems but as I held the province I could send supply wagons back and forth - harder to do if you are on the offensive). This allows me to re-organise and bring up fresh forces (& send the worst mauled ones to the rear).

July will see a return to the slaughter though. They have little scope for movement, I guess going for Venezia improves the terrain but as we will see, my qualitative advantage can be pretty deadly in open terrain as well.

Prussia seems to have passed on this war - though their units carry on wandering around the battlefields causing confusion. They still have a defensive alliance but I'm not sure that PoN has a 'great war' mechanism. There is a script sequence around the historic WW1 (which I have heard is not working), but a bit like a late game EU2, all of a sudden the historic events make no sense in the world you have forged. So I feel the need for an end game climatic war. Italy/France/Russia vs the Germans and the Brits would make some sense.

Maybe you can single-handedly cause WWI by entering Russia, Prussia, and your French allies?

No, Italia solo di fa, I actually briefly start wondering if I need allies ... then I change my mind again. But I do think this Europe is setting up for a Franco-italian-Russian settling of scores with our Germanic neighbours at some stage.

[loki100]

This is going to be a short update as I have all my images organised in 6 month blocks, but in any case it is easier to keep the flow going if I do little and often. Also allows a brief glimpse of the world beyond the bloodstained Dolomites.

The colonial war in E Africa grinds on. Losses fail to register compared to those in Europe but I have more or less regained the coast and am pushing a bit inland. Tanga is the only coastal province I don’t hold and is horrible jungle terrain. Finding the enemy, never mind winning a battle is a challenge.



Till the European war is resolved my intent here is low key. I’ll establish a decent line, build up forts, depots and harbours and wait.

In the Dolomites, there is one sharp battle as the Austrians pull back. The Italians do not try to interfere with their retreat..



While the marines hold off another attack at Split



However, it appears as if the Austrians have had enough for now



My guess is the attacking formation was running out of supply (3rd blue bar) and had to fall back, equally it couldn’t take on replacements while on the offensive in a province I hold. However, despite the losses, I am mostly on top of the replacement costs:



My ability to keep my army at or near full strength can be seen in the OOB:



Equally 5 combat formations are now veterans/experienced (they are at 40% of the scale – new units start between 0-10) and that is yet another bonus in combat. Less important, but note that almost all my artillery formations are now veteran.

The population remains supportive of the war effort



In effect, the only dissent is in the 3 ‘Italian’ provinces I have occupied – Lombardia, SudTirol/Alto Adige and Venezia (where no doubt they are whinging at being expected to pronounce their z properly). The Po provinces also are still rather pro-rebel. Note that the growth rates are mostly up around 3% (3rd col from the right) apart from in SudTirol. Anyone would think the war was putting them off.

And losses for both sides reflect the nature of the war in the last 3 months.



So I am now #2 in the world. Obviously my progress has made everyone note just how important Italy really is (& only 29,000 behind Britain). Losses in the war have been horrendous. I’ve lost 350,000 (some will have been in the colonies but that will be a minor portion), the Austrians close to 1 million (& another 170,000 prisoners). My NM is up to 174 and they are at 78. 65 is the critical point at which they break but that ratio goes a long way to explaining my dominance on the battlefield.

So with nothing decided it is time to formulate my plans for the second half of 1879. I am in a near ideal position. I am on the defence (at a time period when the defence holds all the advantages), with an increasingly veteran army (and good commanders, two of whom are 6-7-7 now), a strong economy and general popular support for the war. My opponent is fielding reserve formations, attacking easily defended positions and with dwindling national enthusiasm. Equally clearly my artillery is queen of the battlefield, they may have more but a combination of experience and equipment makes the ranged fire phases very one sided.

However, I am still outnumbered (2-1 in power, probably 3-1 in numbers), but I think it is time to move out of my defensive shell. I still need to keep formations mutually supporting but I think I can risk a bit more manoeuvre now.

As a wider aside, as people have noted, a human Austrian player would probably give me the Po valley now. They clearly can’t retake it militarily, the world accepts my claims and time is on my side. If it becomes clear that carrying on the war will simply utterly wreck Austria, I’ll step in to enforce a reasonable deal (at the moment all they are offering are cash reparations). I think they are times when you need to save the AI from itself.

More generally, note the Anglo-Prussian war carries on, Prussia is clearly winning but I don’t have a clue where the war is actually being waged.

[loki100]

Things are looking good well at least if you are not one of the 350,000 dead Italians! I think you are correct in your interpretation basically all the elements except numbers are on your side morale, leadership, technology, firepower and experience. Will be interesting to see what happens when you advance and whether the Austrians are able to take advantage of the frontage rules to deploy those extra men.

Well, the first battle I actually have numbers (plus all the other advantages) on my side - the result is as one-sided as you might expect. But we still enter the second Autumn of the war with their core strength intact.

Austria's two-to-one power lead means that they've already lost about the equivalent pwr of your entire army so far. If they couldn't win when they had a three-to-one advantage, I can't really see any way they can do it now.

That said, they'll be on the defensive from now on, meaning it's time to see how much of your gains to date have been due to advantages inherent to the defender.

I wonder what the socio-political atmosphere of Italy would be like in these circumstances. Your losses are horrendous by nineteenth century standards (and Austria's are pretty bad by 20th century standards, they've lost about the same in the past year as they did on average per year in WWI). However bad the war has been, Italy has convincingly made the case for being regarded as a Great Power in its own right. Unlike the historical risorgimento, your Italy has gone it alone and looks to be winning.

The first offensive battle (where I outnumber them 2-1) sees the loss ratio at about 2-1 in my favour (& that is with crossing the Isonzo), so I think I may have been a bit cautious at evading open combat.

I'd guess domestically broadly supportive, given the attitudes of the time. Mllan and Venice would be seen as 'Italian'. One problem after the Po was regained in 1866 was that many felt that was Italy unified. So support for further gains became an indicator of an individual's politics (unlike in the period 1815-66), with relatively limited sustained support for further wars. Here, I am using a regular army and it is clearly going well. Any defeats are easy to airbrush out of the record so the lack of dissent is probably fairly realistic.

But yes, after this, no discussion of the shape of Europe will take place without Italy being fully consulted. I may not have the largest army but I do have the best.

You need only few battles to destroy their NM.

aye getting them below 65 is key. So far all they are offering is reparations and I want territory. That will change pretty soon.

I think that your assessment of the situation is correct: you destroyed a third of their army and there is no way that they will be able to dislodge you from the defensive positions you are in. Besides your army is veteran compared with the rookies Austria is tossing you at the bucketload and your commanders are top of the notch ( especially good ol' G-man ) ... not mentioning the difference in NM, both in absolute numbers and in current evolution trend. You can easily win this war at this point just by sitting in where you are and wait for the Austrians to come at you a couple of times more ... So why not do it instead of risking a attack ?

I think that the answer is in what your objectives in the medium run are. Your losses are still high enough to take quite a time to recover and you already mentioned that you want to move against Egypt soon. I assume you still want to give a couple more of bites in the Ottomans as soon as it is possible, so other war slotted. This points for a closeup of this war as soon as possible... so IMHO you should prepare to march against Vienna ASAP.

Other thing to consider is how wrecked you want Austria to be after this war ... the exact same situation than you had regarding the first Ottoman war, where you wanted them to be strong enough to not cave against the Russians. In spite of a rebel infested Austria could give some interesting opportunities to a nº2 of the world Italy, do you really want them completely wrecked at this point ? ...

The debate on the desired state of Austria is interesting. Its clear that to gain all I want, will take at least one more war (unless I occupy Vienna for 5-6 years), so there is that. Equally I may not get as lucky with Prussia sitting it out in another round. But one key bit in PoN, is you need strong states elsewhere. Not just as a bulwark against other powers (Prussia and Russia in this case) but economically. You could say that PoN has a Keynesian view of post-war economic revival. Purely for the good of my economy, I don't want an utterly weakened Austria, I want them to buy lots of Italian goodies, and I want raw materials (coal in particular) from them. So its a nice dilemna.

Equally I can sort of run guns+Butter, but what I can't really manage is guns+butter+industrial expansion, and it will be my economy that powers me to victory (both due to the prestige gain but also as it will underpin my armed forces).

its a good problem and debate - and another way that PoN produces a challenge. Worth stating, I don't think, even if you started say with GB you can do a world conquest here, so you always have to deal with a multipolar world.

Won't moving out of your mountain killzones make you vulnerable to those two large Austrian armies? I know your armies are better - technology, leaders, experience, NM, the lot - but I see a 9,000 power stack and a 10,000 power stack. If you don't have the advantages of terrain and being on the defense, won't that be a bit much to tackle with your roughly 5,000 power armies?

Since the AI seems perfectly content to mirror the real-life Italian front in World War I with endless assaults on your well-entrenched positions, I would let them. Give them a turn or two to replenish and I'm sure they'll be back - the AI does not seem to have any other plans.

Ricardo Rolo makes good points about not wrecking the Austrians too much, which might be another reason to keep this war relatively low-key by simply sitting in your foxholes and letting the Austrians come at you, at their own pace.

Works two ways, if I spent 3-4 years in the trenches slaughtering them, at some stage they will fall over big time. Their NM must be low, the dislocation of all those reserves must be causing dissent, so a long war leaves me a wasteland on my northern border. Oddly I have to beat the living daylights out of them, quickly, for their own good

I don't see what you gain from even a moderately competent Austria. Wreck 'em.

My, good sir, you are positively bellicose! I think a fatally weakened Austria in itself is not a problem for loki, but it could easily lead to an even stronger Russia and/or Prussia. Russia already is a competitor for the carcass of the Ottoman Empire, so there's no need for them to gorge themselves on the Austrian cadaver as well. Prussia... Well, I assume keeping Prussia from getting too big for its boots is always a good thing.

Last thing we'd want is a Prussia/Germany that decides to annex the Austrian Alps and then becomes an uncomfortable neighbor to La Bella Italia.

Of course, I don't actually play the game, so what do I know? But to me a weak, but not too weak, Austria is infinitely preferable to an overpowered Russia or Prussia as Italy's northeastern neighbor.

I respectfully disagree: the last thing Italy needs is an allied Prussia with a decently-strong Austria who is wounded but not fatally weakened. The Ottomans will be no future threat, but an Austria intent upon revanche very well could be. As the proverb says, "Do no man a small harm."

If Prussia and Russia divide the carcass, Italy will get a chunk and the remaining rump will help shield italy from Prussia. Italy will then likely be able to ally with one of the other two, or will - under loki's benign guidance - be able to stand up for herself.

There is in my opinion no polity in Europe more disposable than Austria, no nation whose disappearance would cause less concern.

Wreck 'em.

Austrian will indeed be revanchist, it will have a CB on me (for Lombardia) if I take my desired goals. That will require some care in future (remember that for both Ottoman wars I left Italy undefended) as they could pounce at any stage.

Russia is my friend, not Prussia - not by intent but that is how it has worked out diplomatically (I guess we share the same enemies and have no real points of contest between us). I'm not sure on Ausria. I clearly want the Adriatic provinces (Friule and Trieste at least, Split maybe) and that will mean another war. Austria and Prussia are close allies so I suspect in future would back each other. So is it better to have a weakened Austria, lagging in technology as a major partner, or see Prussia take more and add it to their existing, I guess, first rate army? Equally will the shock of war and defeat set off a move to an Austro-Hungarian empire?

A lot to work my way around. But first the grim business of ensuring I am in a position to create the sort of peace I would like.

[loki100]

With the war still in the balance, I decide I need (a) a new medal (+2 NM, some officers) and some reserves. If I press into Austria I want to be able to secure my supply lines and I don’t really have enough first rate units to spare.



Both sides take a break in early July during which I pull most of the army off the Dolomites and back to Venezia. My goal is to press back into the Friuli



For the first time I meet a large Austrian army in the relative open. Well the result is pretty stunning



That is the first big battle where I was on the offensive (& crossing a river), so the loss ratio is 2-1 rather than the 3-1 I was gaining in the Dolomites. But the Austrian force is shattered. Unfortunately, any elation is short lived, first a large Austrian force overruns the Marines at Split


[1]

And disaster strikes in the Dolomites, my weakened lines break under the renewed Austrian offensive.



Well yes it is posted as a defeat, but I managed a 3-1 kill ratio and, fortunately the Austrians failed to follow up their advantage [2]. Did nothing for my peace of mind though.



A second battle in Udine secures the town and inflicts another beating on the Austrians.



Unfortunately this is not enough to save the man with the beard who is blamed for the loss of Split



Even as Europe stands in awe at the bloodshed in the Dolomites, Prussia carries on its mission to squabble with the entire globe.


(of more interest, Lombardia is also an Austrian objective, so they will have a regular CB on me – I may have to be more careful at stripping Italy of troops in the future).

By the start of October the war has entered a new phase. The Austrians not only abandoned their offensive in the Dolomites but allowed Italian units to seize Innsbruck. However, as the fresh reserves are integrated into the veteran formations, it becomes clear that the Austrians intend to contest any advance towards Wien.



To show how the provinces linked I’ve indicated which of my forces can support the others. So while the force in the Sud-Tirol may look isolated in fact it is well protected, equally if I push into Klagenfurt, where the Austrian army is, all my formations can support the attack. The army at Innsbruck is a little isolated but that is mountainous terrain.

[1] this led to a pingpong and I lost a lot of elements when retreating
[2 this happens sometimes in the AGE combat system. My last RoP AAR has a lot of instances were I was the loser but held the ground at the end – defend at all costs is the order that helps here (though that can also get you wiped out).

[loki100]

[color="#FF0000"]Ok that completes the migration, at some stage over the weekend the next stage of the war will be up ... new and exclusive to the AGEOD forums[/color]

[Dewirix]

Excellent, I look forward with relish to this continuing.

[Stuyvesant]

Huzzah! I've been missing my PON-by-proxy fix!

[Dewirix]

Huzzah! I've been missing my PON-by-proxy fix!

Me too, especially given where it was we left off.

Looking forward to the renewed Italian offensive.

[r_rolo1]

Ok, got here ( I'm Ricardo Rolo from Paradox forums ... just decided to use my CivFanatics alias here when I signed in ).

So, and finally Italy decided to move out of the bloody mountains. The results are not 100% encouraging ( the defending defeat at the mountains was definitely not ideal, in spite of the ground having been kept and the casualty ratio was in your favour ... and the loss of the marines, in spite of expectable, was not welcome ), but it looks that the days of the italian troops entrenched against human waves of Austrian troops are over. The issue is that you don't have a lot of manouver space to get around the easily defendable positions on the way to Wien ... and , as you say, the Prussians getting a sunbath while pretending to go to Malta are also not helping

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

Too bad for the Marines at Spit. Someday they will be avenged, when all the Dalmatian coast is Italian!

By the way, I love how you connected Depretis' fall with the fall of Spit. It seems realistic, considering the blaming that often occurs during wars.

[loki100]

Well first, welcome one and all. Glad this has been interesting enough to encourage you to follow it across forums.

Huzzah! I've been missing my PON-by-proxy fix!

Me too, especially given where it was we left off. Looking forward to the renewed Italian offensive.

I suppose if there was a 'good' point to have all the disruption of migrating, then the middle of a war that will make or break Italy seemed to be as good as any ...

Ok, got here ( I'm Ricardo Rolo from Paradox forums ... just decided to use my CivFanatics alias here when I signed in ).

So, and finally Italy decided to move out of the bloody mountains. The results are not 100% encouraging ( the defending defeat at the mountains was definitely not ideal, in spite of the ground having been kept and the casualty ratio was in your favour ... and the loss of the marines, in spite of expectable, was not welcome ), but it looks that the days of the italian troops entrenched against human waves of Austrian troops are over. The issue is that you don't have a lot of manouver space to get around the easily defendable positions on the way to Wien ... and , as you say, the Prussians getting a sunbath while pretending to go to Malta are also not helping

I was being very cautious up to mid-79. My logic was essentially if it all went very wrong I could sue for peace and avoid the loss of my expensively created army. Ok that would probably had meant my E Med/E Africa strategy would be the only real option for the rest of the game but the consequences of a bad defeat could have cost me my gains elsewhere. The clue I ignored was that early battle when Garibaldi was caught retreating from Croatia when he inflicted very heavy losses on a much larger force. I think I underestimated the gains of veteran units (even before the war most of my main units had 2-3 experience points) and high NM in terms of combat potential.

So the final portion of 1879 is me trying to occupy a line of provinces that will set up the 1880 drive on Wien, and hopefully some large battles in open terrain where I can really put my advantages to best use.

Too bad for the Marines at Spit. Someday they will be avenged, when all the Dalmatian coast is Italian!

By the way, I love how you connected Depretis' fall with the fall of Spit. It seems realistic, considering the blaming that often occurs during wars.

Must say that Marine formation has been wiped out 3-4 times, the original men in hats were stomped in the Ottoman counterattack that retook Thessaloniki, their replacements died in the assault on Istanbul in the first Ottoman war. I have a vague suspicion I lost them again in a colonial defeat. Join the Italian Marines and die somewhere ... would be a great recruitment poster.

Aye, I like it when a scripted event kicks in that you can twist to make sense of in game terms (the old CK1 was comedy gold due to that).

The pair of them dominated Italian politics in the late 70s-80s. In effect Cairoli reflected the old Piedmont elite and had a thing about regaining Udine/Trieste etc, Depretis was more a reflection of the post-unification ruling class and stressed economic development (& to a lesser extent colonial expansion). They encapsulate quite neatly the elite debate on the future and nature of the new Italy. In the meantime, the population had other interests and concerns - one thing that is unrealistic (but very welcome) is the relatively low level of militancy but I believe there are some scripted events to capture some of the events of the late 1880s and 1890s.

[loki100]

For some rather hard to understand reason, writing this seems rather weird. Its not just a break from doing the updates … it’s a bit like one of my cats dealing with the concept of a new sleeping place …
Anyway we have a war to discuss:

Now at the end of September, the Austrians had concentrated into a huge force in Klagenfurt, threatening either a renewal of their attacks in the Alto Adige or my forces in Friule. Despite the threat, I gamble of moving some units (basically Garibaldi’s army) to Trieste (I can still reinforce any defence of Udine). Well I have my second lesson that perhaps I can seek battle in open terrain.



Its grim stuff, but again my artillery tips the scales substantively in my favour. In the first battle it looks like I caught and destroyed an isolated Austrian force (again the totals at the top are a bit misleading) as among the losses are a HQ element.

At the same time, an Austrian column tries to force the Dolomites again.



Both battles carry on over the 2 weeks (I’ll skip the details) and worth noting that the loss ratio is now around 4-1 in my favour (so my guess is this Austrian offensive is relying more on their reserves) as I suspect they lose in quality (and NM) and I gain. At the end I have quite an advantage,



They are tied up in the mountains, I have the scope to move into Croatia and SW Austria proper once I clear Trieste. In late October, both battles carry on. In the Dolomites, I hold them off inflicting steady losses, in Trieste, Garibaldi comes close to wiping out an entire Austrian army (& still he misses all the Prussians wandering around – what a man …). So the loss ratio is now up around 10-1 and add to that the 374 elements that surrendered.



Even in victory, I face a substantial butcher’s bill, but the Austrians must be in a desperate state:



By Late November, the Austrians are still trying to force the Dolomites and I’ve risked an Infantry corps to try and take Salzburg. Hopefully the threat to Wien will force them to fall back.


[1]

As my intention is push eastwards, if I am very lucky I can trap the bulk of their army out of supply. Unfortunately an Austrian army overwhelms my advance guard at Salzburg.



Still, now I hold Trieste, so by early December I am in a position to push east. In effect my entire operational mindset has altered. At the start I wanted to hide in the Dolomites where terrain bonuses and space restrictions were on my side. I now rather fancy battles on open ground, but would still much rather be on the defensive, or to catch some of the armies isolated (as the big G did in the first battle at Trieste).



In effect, what looks like one of their main armies is in Zagreb and the other is still battering itself in the Dolomites. If I can seize Klagenfurt and Graz then, at worst, their two armies are completely split apart by my move into Western Croatia. By late December, I occupied Klagenfurt, in a brutal action. Note that the snow has seriously reduced the impact of my artillery, thus making this more of a close quarter battle and I was on the offensive.



But unfortunately, it appears as if the Austrian army has slipped out of the trap



My logic now is to complete the occupation of Laibach, secure Innsbruck and retake Fiume. Once the snow clears, Its time to march on Wien and draw the Austrians to battle in open terrain – ideally with me on the defence but I’ll settle for an offensive action. One small problem is the two main Austrian armies have disappeared from view, so I’m a little unsure of their whereabouts.

The population remains supportive of the war



The only real dissent is in the freshly occupied provinces and that is slowly dropping (Military Police units do help in this regard).
I still have control over the replacement situation:



Well control is perhaps too strong a word as it is costing me all my manufactured goods to convert potential recruits to useable replacements. This is one reason why I am going to slow things down over the winter period. I’m at risk of losing complete elements, but a couple of months, mopping up and on the defence will allow me to bring the combat formations back up to strength. So by sitting back I hopefully avoid both attrition losses (moving in snow) and combat losses.

In the meantime, Austria’s moral plummets in response to the fast mounting losses



Note I am now firmly #2 in the world. The USA is left far behind, helped by a steady stream of prestige from the battles in the Dolomites in particular. The NM situation is such that from now on, Austria will start offering decent peace terms. Since I want quite a lot (the Po provinces and Trentino/Alto Adige/Sud-Tirol – call it as you will), then I think I need to push on to Wien. But as with the earlier debate, I am still not sure I really want to push Austria to the point of complete collapse.

In terms of losses, the last 6 months have seen around 310,000 Italian dead and just short of 1 million Austrians. As you can see in Combat Power terms now, they only just outmatch me and I suspect that troop quality plus the composition of my armies (all those modern guns) means it is even more equal than it appears.
The UK and Prussia carry on their war, again it seems that the UK is losing but its anything but clear where this war is being fought.

Oh, and just to be strange, the French build a canal … but this one in Panama



The USA really does seem a bit of a paper tiger at the moment, have they not heard of the Monroe Doctrine?
So into 1880, 30 years and 720 turns played, 40 years and 960 to go. Lets see if we can reach Wien before the end?

[1] – there is a game engine bug here. If a third force is in the province, it seems as if you cannot assault a fortification. It took me a while to work out what the issue was but it will affect the later stages of the war.

[Dewirix]

Well, that was definitely worth the move! Looks like the Austrians are on their last legs, even if your forces have taken a bit of a beating too.

Gari seems to be doing fairly well for himself. He's had an odd career in this version of history, but should cement his place as one of the Founding Fathers of modern Italy with this war.

[powloon1]

Goto concur with Dewirix. Looks like the tide of the war is firmly moving in your direction. It may take some time to wrap up but it is definately yours for the taking. You have critically smashed the Austrian's National Morale I can't see anyway back for them. Well done!

[Stuyvesant]

Sweet lord! You're actually going to do it: go on the offensive. And you're going to succeed. I'm clearly too cautious/scared for these games, I'd never have thought you would be able to pull off an offensive into the Austrian heartland.

Grim, wholesale slaughter in those battles. But hey! You've got good Catholics at home, so they should make up for it in a generation or so.

[r_rolo1]

Austria seems to be very close of the breaking point ... too bad you couldn't eliminate that almost trapped Austrian army, but even then you are solidly in offence and it looks that the Austrians have not much more to throw into the fight than the troops you see. But even then, caution demands you rest your armies and wait for spring before the next push, not only to recover a bit your elements but also to remove that pesky snow that makes your artillery far less effective. The support for the war is good enough for you to not have to jump into a precipitate move anyway

Now for the longer run, 2 questions:

1) I decided to review your objectives list and ,even if you get what you want from this war, there will be still 2 objectives in the hands of the Austrians ( Trieste and Split ), adding to other 2 in the hands of the Ottomans ( Adana and Thessaloniki ), none of them as cheap as that. This, added to the war(s) you want to do vs Egypt ( that will most likely not need a full mobilization ), this means atleast 3 more wars just to fulfill your and the game objective list. I assume you will go Egypt->Ottomans->Austria ( due to truce time ), but have any calendar sketch of this ? This because ...

2) ... Are you going to take on UK until the end of the game ? Better said, do you think you need to take on the UK to surpass them on prestige until 1910 ? TBH you are doing the role of the non-existant underdog that decides to unite, industrialise and make a solid threat the UK dominance that OTL Prussia/Germany did in the roughly same time period and I'm sensing that the game is slowly forcing you to face the UK if you want to win via prestige ( since Prussia is not winning fast enough their war ) ... let's be honest, the UK has almost the double of your prestige ATM and, in spite of your steady and solid climb, it is not assured you will close that 30k gap without mowing them out.

[Soulstrider]

Ha how I missed my Pon fix, glad to see you kicking Austrian ass.

[Director]

I would swear I made a post here yesterday but it looks like it didn't go through. Anyway: welcome to your new dark-gray home. I think your feline analogy is somewhat off, since I've never seen a cat who had trouble sleeping anywhere.

Splendid results, even allowing for the retreat from Salzburg and the casualties of the Winter Offensive. The Eastern Empire must be rocking on its foundations and the rest of Europe should be taking careful note of your accomplishments.

I understand your reasons for not wanting to push the Austrians too hard. But to get the territories you want you will either have to wreck them now or fight another war (or two) with them later. So I say wreck them and let the political and economic chips fall where they may. Someone will own the Austrian lands and the people who live there will still need to buy your products. Better to kick them hard while you can (Carpe Diem!), before they improve their army or sign up a big ally.

[Stuyvesant]

This is exceedingly silly, but you don't know how pleased I am to see that custom avatar over here, Director. Still going to disagree with your guerre à outrance against Austria: I have not much sympathy for Franz Joseph, but I really don't want to see either Russia or Prussia/Germany bordering Italy.

Oh well, I'll leave it up to loki to decide when enough is enough. First, let's see the Italians looting the Schönbrunn Palace in Wien.

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

Well I guess if Austria is dying then Prussia becomes the rightful heir to the soon to be German Empire. So maybe this will make German Unification a bit more clear.

My suggestion is in the future you team up with Germany to take out the British.

Good luck!

[Dewirix]

This is exceedingly silly, but you don't know how pleased I am to see that custom avatar over here, Director.

It does make it feel more like home, doesn't it.

I'm apparently not allowed to edit my own profile yet.

[Matnjord]

Nice to see that the transition to the AGEOD forum went smoothly, although I don't know if the feline comparison is appropriate I understand what you're saying, this new color scheme feels very odd.

Alright let's have a look at the update itself...

WHAAAAT?! 65 elements destroyed! A million Austrian killed and more than a 100 000 taken prisoners! Bloody hell, did you commission some Krupp heavy artillery when I wasn't looking? That's a kill rate almost as bad as WWI! Even at Verdun they "only" achieved 350 000 casualties per side in ten months!

When I was predicting an Austrian collapse by summer 1880 I thought I was being optimistic, but it looks like you'll have achieved complete victory by then, their army is clearly collapsing already. Avanti! A Vienna!

On a side note, what would be the Italian equivalent to Krupp (artillery wise of course)? The Austrians need a name to fear.

[Stuyvesant]

The USA really does seem a bit of a paper tiger at the moment, have they not heard of the Monroe Doctrine?

Don't know how relevant this would be in 1879, but in real life the Monroe Doctrine was basically enforced by the British for the first bit of its existence (I'm sure Director could tell you more), as the Americans simply didn't have the muscle to back it up. It suited the British just fine to keep everyone out of North and South America, as long as they could get their trade on.

Seeing as how the British are failing horribly to contain the upstart Prussians (without any apparent battles being fought), it's not hard to see why they could care less if the French want to kill themselves in the malaria-infested jungles of Panama.