Manufacturing Italy (a PoN GC)

[loki100]

O
Your "Coal... mine" pun is pretty bad, yes. I guess one could say you didn't dig deep enough? Or that you didn't extract the full value from this rich comedic vein? Didn't quite strike the mother lode?

I'll get me coat now.

och its a rich vein that can be mined for a few more puns yet ...

[Jim-NC]

Italy doesn't have enough factories to stunt America's growth. I don't think Italy has enough mines to do it either (yes, you have a lot of mines, but America has a lot of coal resources).

And I don't think all this mining is funny.

[sagji]

One thing that confused me is the image on a counter updates to reflect the most recent tech, so a sail battleship squadron will show as a coal battleship if that is the era you are in (not the individual counter but the collective on map unit image).

That is a limitation of the engine. The squadron (unit) has been upgraded by the new tech but none of the ships (models) have - and they don't upgrade. If it looses ships then the new ships will be of the upgraded type.

In that image note that Rome is brown (ie I can't build there), I suspect that indicates a lack of capacity (presumably population) to absorb any more industry.

It isn't lack of population as that isn't a constraint - you just get a penalty on output. Also as Rome presumably has lots of factories already and any population is spread over the factories. You can find out by selecting a Factory in Rome and putting the mouse over it - this will show the population use on the right. For each type it will show allocated/required with free on the line below. IIRC you can build a factory in a region with 0 population.

[Heeward]

Ah finally able to post to the forum again....

I bought the game because of this AAR by the way, and I find it quite interesting and entertaining.

Now a few questions as I have not got very far into the game (Early Oct 1863 Prussia)

Do mines in foreign countries generate prestige?

Why more coal mines in the USA as opposed to somewhere else?
Do you think this could strangle their economic growth?
You may have to fight them in the upcoming world conflagration. And crippling their economy is the only way you can win the game at 2:1 in prestige.

Have you built railroads in all your colonies / foreign investment locations?

Further Questions

If you need a “Short Victorious War”, then why not Switzerland, they make chocolate, and can easily learn the value of being Italian.

Did the Ottomans have a Defensive Treaty with Prussia, causing the Prussian Intervention in you minor dispute with the Ottomans.

Other than the objectives claimed by France do you intend to collect the others?

[loki100]

On the bright side, it looks like an impossibility that the US will catch up with you in prestige, so a victory on points seems assured (well, that is unless your self-inflicted World War goes horribly wrong for Italy).

Can you build factories in the US, or only resource gathering operations? If you can build factories too, you could just spam the continent with low-grade factories and then shut them down permanently. Perhaps that would damage their economic growth (even more than your ruthless exploitation of all the fine natural resources the US has to offer).

I was hoping for more from that Russian Revolution/insurrection. Maybe next time.

Your "Coal... mine" pun is pretty bad, yes. I guess one could say you didn't dig deep enough? Or that you didn't extract the full value from this rich comedic vein? Didn't quite strike the mother lode?

I'll get me coat now.

I did a test and it seems the only thing you can build in another state is primary resource extraction sites not industry. In general with the US, it now looks like I am behind by about 1000 prestige points a year. So in the remaining timescale it will take something cataclysmic for that to shift who is number #1.

From the evidence, Russia's problems are not over yet, its now the Finns making a bid for the exit door.

Italy doesn't have enough factories to stunt America's growth. I don't think Italy has enough mines to do it either (yes, you have a lot of mines, but America has a lot of coal resources).

And I don't think all this mining is funny.

By mid-1910, where I am in game play, the US is pretty built out for key resources. I suspect a lot of their mines are less modern than mine (tee hee) so for good or ill my industrial power is pretty much as good as it will be (I have a few factories to come on line but nothing remarkable).

That is a limitation of the engine. The squadron (unit) has been upgraded by the new tech but none of the ships (models) have - and they don't upgrade. If it looses ships then the new ships will be of the upgraded type.

That explains it thank you. That really confused me because the few times I have seen British or French ships they looked modern so I assumed the AI was keeping up to date Going back to my war with Britain, given they had 1850s sail ships against 1880s coal fired battleships I'd say the AI was pretty bright to avoid direct combat and instead go for a commerce raiding strategy.

It isn't lack of population as that isn't a constraint - you just get a penalty on output. Also as Rome presumably has lots of factories already and any population is spread over the factories. You can find out by selecting a Factory in Rome and putting the mouse over it - this will show the population use on the right. For each type it will show allocated/required with free on the line below. IIRC you can build a factory in a region with 0 population.

Double checked and you are right, there is some surplus population there. But the province is not available for more factories so it must be some sort of capacity issue but there are more actual factories in Turin.

Ah finally able to post to the forum again....

I bought the game because of this AAR by the way, and I find it quite interesting and entertaining.

thank you, as may be clear, for all its frustrations I find PoN probably the most engaging game I have ever played. Even vs the AI, the end game takes some planning as opposed to the usual feeling of being so far ahead its all just micro-management to the final goal.

Now a few questions as I have not got very far into the game (Early Oct 1863 Prussia)

Do mines in foreign countries generate prestige?

Only when first built, you get a +1 for every new 'structure'. None of the primary sites (agriculture or mines) directly produce prestige but of course you need them to run your factories which do. Apart from shipyards, none of the first generation factories produce prestige but thereafter they quickly become your core source of prestige.

Why more coal mines in the USA as opposed to somewhere else?

I've some in France and one in Serbia. I could possibly build more in the Balkans but I want that region to settle down before risking it. If a province changes hands in a war you are at risk of losing your production sites there.

Do you think this could strangle their economic growth?
You may have to fight them in the upcoming world conflagration. And crippling their economy is the only way you can win the game at 2:1 in prestige.

My first wave of coal mines in the US was simply done to increase global supply. If I had my own sources, I was less active in the global market so there was a little bit more for the AI.

I've very much kept to the advice that against the AI don't play as a mercantalist and the reward is that for the most part the AI has managed the other economies pretty well. So I can buy in a lot and sell almost all I want to.

The second wave was designed very much to choke off their access to raw materials, as well as to secure my own economy. Looking at the prestige gain, they had a steady increase from about 1895 onwards but it seems to be more stable (10,500 – 11,000) now, so I think I may have stalled their growth.

My fundamental problem now is that my own economy is completely dependent on American materials – I have coal, wood, tobacco and oil plants there. I'd lose that in a war and I think that relatively I am doing more damage to the USA at peace than I could in war.

I'm not sure how they will jump if/when Europe explodes. I am the only state they have friendly relations with but realistically I don't see them as being prepared to back me. So I'm hoping for neutrality.

Have you built railroads in all your colonies / foreign investment locations?

I have one strategic rail running from Djibuti to the borders of South Africa. As I've dealt with most of the serious revolt risks (by 'being nice to people' – amazing how successful that was), my regular army is in the south and I have native/colonial units spread out.

I've built rails in provinces with key resources for the bonus in terms of production (so all the gem.opium, gold, sugar and tropical fruit provinces). You need to be a little bit careful as rails and fleets have first call on your coal stocks, so too many and you can end up with a coal shortage.

Further Questions

If you need a “Short Victorious War”, then why not Switzerland, they make chocolate, and can easily learn the value of being Italian.

I learnt from my second Egyptian war that you get damn all unless they have colonies you can claim or you have a valid claim on a province. The other way to damage them, even if you don't gain, is to force them to release a nation. Otherwise you get a bit of prestige for the battles and sieges but you face quite a diplomatic hit.

In terms of relations with majors that doesn't matter. Austria, Germany and Britain hate me, I have very good relations with France, Russia and the USA. But thre are a mass of tribal nations up and down Africa with whom I have 0 to +5. This is enough to stop uprisings but very unstable. When I went to war with the Ottomans, that shoved a lot of those relations to below 0 and forced me to use a lot of diplomats to bring it back under control (offer local support is your tool here).

So my instinct is I'd have a war, gain a little prestige, have to white peace out and have to repair all the damage in my colonial regions.

Did the Ottomans have a Defensive Treaty with Prussia, causing the Prussian Intervention in you minor dispute with the Ottomans.

No but with hindsight I think the AI was very clever. I'm reasonably sure it picks a level of aggression based on (a) how bad your relations already are and (b) how weak you are. I've never seen the AI pick the 'mobilise' card in any of those disputes. So I wonder if the Prussians knew I only had a weak army in Italy.

If so that is important as one of the ways to improve the diplo-AI is to play around with the weights it gives to bad relations, chance to win and so on.

Other than the objectives claimed by France do you intend to collect the others?

I don't want to grab Thessaloniki till the second Balkan War starts (given my changes this should be 1911) as I want those event chains to work as designed (they are key to the WW1 chains). Greece used to be an ally but I am now much closer to Serbia and Bulgaria. So its tempting to see if I can do a land grab - *ahem * no, a humanitarian intervention purely to ease the plight of the refugees only to find that to do so I just happen to need a permanent base – on the back of that.

That leaves Adana and the Levant. They were my goals in my failed 3rd Ottoman War, so any attempt has to be serious. Its not beating the Ottoman army as such, its the level of warscore means taking and holding all their main cities. From experience, they have a postively Russian approach to the concept of partisan war, so you have to be able to stay for the long haul.

Since, as above, I've shifted Austria and Germany's diplomatic calculus to pay particular attention to force ratios, that is only something I can risk if both those are badly beaten.

[loki100]

1908 continues the themes of recent updates. Its a case of waiting and planning for 'something' to happen. Of immediate importance is the allocation of relatively modern navies to all the main powers and the return of a strong sense of fashion within the Italian army.

Industry

Manufactures



That problem with manufactures means I decide to risk some more industry, I think my coal stocks are enough



Non-Manufactures



As with all the recent reports, that is as under control as I can manage it. There is very little food to import (I guess most states have my problem with being a bit short in terms of population demand), but I am not doing too badly in meeting my domestic demand.



Militancy is down to around 30-34%



Rebellions

My troubles in W Africa carry on. Lots of small skirmishes and the occasional burning down of my colonial buildings



It was the usual job of deploying to surround them, and then hoping to inflict multiple defeats. While planning this, I was immensely pleased to see how well dressed my Bersagliare are.



All this paid off



However, my southern African provinces decided that it was fun to rebel



In honour of Garibaldi, the nice wildlife was spared



But not the rebels



I'm not the only one with rebel problems. The Finns seem to have had enough of Russian rule.



Production

One reason this year took an age to play was I decided to sort out the navy problem. The AI hasn't built any. I think its a combination of the extent it believes a navy is important but also, more logically, that key items (steel and manufactures) have often been in global short supply. I was quite relieved to see this as it shows the Austrian navy script. They have 2 1890s battleship squadrons, 4 inshore torpedo boat squadrons, 5 destroyers and a single transport fleet.



I gave the following squadrons (ie each is 4 ships), either based around Dreadnoughts or pre-Dreadnoughts to all the major powers.

Russia – 2 BB (one 1880, one 1890), 4 light cruiser, 5 destroyer, plus lighter coastal units;
Japan - 4 light cruiser, 2 destroyers (I checked and they don't have the techs for 1890s BB)
USA – 2 Dreadnoughts, 2 BB, 8 light cruiser, 7 destroyer (most in the Atlantic, some in the Pacific)
France – 1 Dreadnought, 2 BB, 3 light cruiser, 5 destroyer
GB – 2 Dreadnoughts, 2 BB, 2 Battlecruisers, 3 light cruiser, 2 destroyer
Germany – 5 BB, 4 light cruisers, 4 destroyers [1]

In addition small fleets to China, Belgium and Holland and all got a reasonable transport fleet.

My logic here was to give them a cut down version of their actual WW1 fleets. None individually are a match for me (3 Dreadnought, 4 BB, 2 BC plus the smaller stuff) but it creates more uncertainty about the naval aspect of any future war. I didn't give GB much as I am presuming that reflects the economic damage from the war.

In addition, I've adapted Christophe's scripts so all have been told to undertake further ship building (if they can).

Diplomacy

Brazil and France had a dispute, since I am allied to both I really didn't want this to escalate so the Italian diplomatic corps were banned from attendance



Italy's diplomats gazed in disbelief as the dispute was resolved by controlled dialogue and a willingness to compromise. Such things could never catch on.

Prestige



Main things is that Italy and the USA are more or less keeping in step. They have gone from 156,811 to 167,498 (ie 10, 700) and Italy from 250,208 to 259,830 (ie 9,700). Given where we are in the game, I really can't see them catching me as I am still 90,000 ahead, but its pretty clear my dreams of ending with a clear win are evaporating. Warning to anyone playing PoN, the late game USA (even under the AI) is a real powerhouse.

Despite my recent small scale revolts in West Africa and Zambia, my NM has dropped a little from 129 to 127. My combat losses are up 4,400.

[1] - if anyone wants the building scripts drop me a PM

[Stuyvesant]

I was immensely pleased to see how well dressed my Bersagliare are.

Fine ties! And suspenders! And hats tilted at a rakish angle, with an ostrich feather to boot! These lads mean business!

Brazil and France had a dispute, since I am allied to both I really didn't want this to escalate so the Italian diplomatic corps were banned from attendance



Italy's diplomats gazed in disbelief as the dispute was resolved by controlled dialogue and a willingness to compromise. Such things could never catch on.

Well, I guess you'll just have to lead by example (which, given the scripting you've implemented, you'll be doing sooner or later).

Looking forward to finding out how different the naval combat will be, now that your opponents might have fleets that can do more than burn like a Roman candle as soon as you open fire.

[Matnjord]

Good, we'll finally have the great dreadnought clashes we were promised.

I might be completely wrong, but I have the feeling that Italy might be stagnating? Maybe the time to get some "spazio vitale" has arrived.

Also, I noticed you started chopping wood at Catskills in your previous update...Stuyvesant, I'm sure there must be a joke to make here...

[Stuyvesant]

Also, I noticed you started chopping wood at Catskills in your previous update...Stuyvesant, I'm sure there must be a joke to make here...

Wood? You expect me to make jokes about wood?!? Sirrah, I have standards! Harrumph! <Grabs top hat and monocle, storms out angrily to the waiting Rolls Royce>

Although I must admit I have to fight the urge to rise to the occasion.

[Matnjord]

Wood? You expect me to make jokes about wood?!? Sirrah, I have standards! Harrumph! <Grabs top hat and monocle, storms out angrily to the waiting Rolls Royce>

Although I must admit I have to fight the urge to rise to the occasion.

Especially in the morning it is very hard to resist making wood jokes, (what? It's morning here in London) ahem...


About those Bersaglieri, bah, prima donne the whole lot they are! Give them a few months in some good old fashioned trenches, you'll see if they still hang on to their ostrich feathers and bow ties! That's what lack of action does to your troops, they stay idle and play at having cat walks all over the Austrian frontier. Loki! Put these brave men into action, can't you see they're practically begging for it?

[Kensai]

That is a limitation of the engine. The squadron (unit) has been upgraded by the new tech but none of the ships (models) have - and they don't upgrade. If it looses ships then the new ships will be of the upgraded type.

Partly WAD. Probably the developers wanted to simulate the resistance of the governments/parliaments to build newer ships when the older were perfectly usable. If you want to scrap them, delete the whole unit.

[sagji]

Partly WAD. Probably the developers wanted to simulate the resistance of the governments/parliaments to build newer ships when the older were perfectly usable. If you want to scrap them, delete the whole unit.

While there should be reluctance to replace serviceable ships - the situation here is too extreme as the ships are so totally obsolete then even the ships that should have replaced them when they became unserviceable are now totally obsolete. This sounds much more like the AI doesn't understand that ships don't upgrade and need to be scrapped.

[enf91]

There ought to be a mechanic for selling old ships to minor countries. That happened a few times, right?

[loki100]

Fine ties! And suspenders! And hats tilted at a rakish angle, with an ostrich feather to boot! These lads mean business!

About those Bersaglieri, bah, prima donne the whole lot they are! Give them a few months in some good old fashioned trenches, you'll see if they still hang on to their ostrich feathers and bow ties! That's what lack of action does to your troops, they stay idle and play at having cat walks all over the Austrian frontier. Loki! Put these brave men into action, can't you see they're practically begging for it?

You should see what they are wearing just where the counter is cut off ... I have been using my Scottish alliance to really improve the dress sense of the Italian army. I mean, jaunty hats, feather from endengered wildlife, wee dicky bow and suspenders ... you just have to go with the natural next step?

Those units are in West Africa, so if this all blows up, they will be chasing the Hun around the Kalahari (I'm sure that was one of the Carry On films? ... Carry On up the bushman or something?)

Well, I guess you'll just have to lead by example (which, given the scripting you've implemented, you'll be doing sooner or later).

Looking forward to finding out how different the naval combat will be, now that your opponents might have fleets that can do more than burn like a Roman candle as soon as you open fire.

Good, we'll finally have the great dreadnought clashes we were promised.

I might be completely wrong, but I have the feeling that Italy might be stagnating? Maybe the time to get some "spazio vitale" has arrived.

Me too. Its now clear why the British naval AI in that war refused to come and play with me. So it'll be interesting to see what the AI now does with pretty deceent naval assets. I doubt I'll have fleets with 3000 power armies sailing around without an escort.

And yes, you are right about stagnation. Despite the brief optimism in the next update, too many critical resources are now in very short supply. So its a case of juggling with my existing resources rather than proud expansion. Also Africa is pretty much chopped up and explored, so even the colonial game is now about holding down what I've already taken.

Also, I noticed you started chopping wood at Catskills in your previous update...Stuyvesant, I'm sure there must be a joke to make here...

Wood? You expect me to make jokes about wood?!? Sirrah, I have standards! Harrumph! <Grabs top hat and monocle, storms out angrily to the waiting Rolls Royce>

Although I must admit I have to fight the urge to rise to the occasion.

Especially in the morning it is very hard to resist making wood jokes, (what? It's morning here in London) ahem...

Ach not much beats chopping up some nice firewood in the morning ... we are tough up here you see ....

Partly WAD. Probably the developers wanted to simulate the resistance of the governments/parliaments to build newer ships when the older were perfectly usable. If you want to scrap them, delete the whole unit.

While there should be reluctance to replace serviceable ships - the situation here is too extreme as the ships are so totally obsolete then even the ships that should have replaced them when they became unserviceable are now totally obsolete. This sounds much more like the AI doesn't understand that ships don't upgrade and need to be scrapped.

I must confess I like the mechanism, even for stuff that really should be in the museum. It sort of captures the irrationalism of much military debate, especially when orchestrated by the popular press. The problem here was I thought the British AI had perfectly useable coal battleships (that was what the counter indicated) when in fact they were 1850s style sail ships.

There ought to be a mechanic for selling old ships to minor countries. That happened a few times, right?

There is an event that means you build ships for someone else and get some cash and prestige. I've had it once and gave some ships to Greece. There is nothing in the game enging to allow this – which is a pity as its pretty realistic. I think in the huge PBEM game they do this by agreement and script which is fair between players.

The wider issue is the AI won't build ships. I think its a combination of perceived importance (as Christophe has had success with a script to get the AI building) and cost. A few times, I've really had to preplan and set strict priorities to generate the steel and manufactures I've needed for key stages in my naval build up. I think the AI has done a good job of economic management (no country has collapsed) but I guess that is a level of planning beyond it.

[loki100]

I won't particularly drag out these reports. I'm up to May 1911 in game (have an editing job at the moment so PoN can do its thing on another computer and I pay attention when I need a break). In any case, I am sort of pinned by my dual event chain. WW1 is not far away and if I try and act too independently I am very much at risk from Germany and Austria.

The main challenge has been trying to get the economy and army into a shape for what is to come, but that will make more sense in the context of the 1910 update.

So:

Industry


(ok that should read 1910)

At this stage I was still hopeful that I was on top of the coal problem, so decided to risk another industrial plant.



Non-Manufactures



Less to say there as there isn't much I can influence. I do still worry over my ability to generate enough food so decide to build some new fishing fleets



Militantism is down under 30% so it seems that all my tweaking of industrial and agricultural output is working. The problem is I am running a civilian economy (most of the supply and ammunition plants are closed).

Diplomacy

Beyond my fussing over production and trade, there are some important diplomatic events.

Something very strange happens in Afghanistan



Now that was not the only diplomatic event. Oh no. Prussia decided to be silly and let Italy's diplomats out of their cage.



Here I decided not to push it so selected cards that would mean I was seen to be the injured party and that protected my overall position. Well, with one exception



While the world waited for the outcome, I had an attack of the Nejd's who had broken out of their theme park. ... For a very short visit.



Well, as is traditional, my diplomats did their business and a load more prestige was extracted from Germany.



The whole crisis process is one of the gems of PoN. You can really construct a strategy to a goal, but it can work brilliantly (as there) or escalate. My only wish was there was a mechanism for other powers to get involved too.

For anyone who has seen Porco Rosso [1], this will bring back memories



Prestige



So to focus on what really matters. I've gone from 259,830 to 269.630 (so 10,000) and the USA from 167,498 to 178,251 (so 11,000).

Perhaps worth noting that Russia, despite its huge rebel problem is starting to catch up with GB too.


[1] with the tagline – 'a pigs gotta fly'

[Heeward]

So critical decision in your game (and mine) was not insuring that the Confederate States were successful in their failed war for independence in 1863 /1864. Thus allowing the full growth of the US economy.

[Asher413]

So critical decision in your game (and mine) was not insuring that the Confederate States were successful in their failed war for independence in 1863 /1864. Thus allowing the full growth of the US economy.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but since it's a 'full war', you would have to virtually eliminate the USA and all it's units and then have the CSA to contest with (with likely a much smaller pool of cards... so probably would be successful, but not an easy ask at all). Hmm... maybe I'll start a new campaign on the side just to see if I can give the CSA that strong an ally...

I just hit 1910 in my game, and you aren't kidding about the number of Techs that fire. Thankfully my $$ is about 2/3rds of yours and pushing them all along isn't a problem. (as another side note- I also got an event telling me Russia had it's first car and plane... when I've had car and plane factories for several years! Does this mean every car we imported for the wealthy has been used as a fancy couch?)

[Jim-NC]

Each country gets advancements at a different time. In our MP game, Germany has been producing cars for about 1 year, and as Britain, I am missing a critical tech, and so can't research cars. That means I am about 4.5 years behind them in that race. The odd thing is that the tech I need isn't researched, but "discovered" at 100% whenever it is discovered.

On the other hand, I was the first to get electrical factories (I had mine built before I think anyone else had started their plant, and so had a 1.5 year monopoly on production). Germany had a smal problem about this, as they had already upgraded a factory to a plant, and had to shut it down as they didn't have electrical parts.

I wonder if the discover dates for certain techs are hard coded for each country in the game, or if they are completely random (I am talking about the techs you don't research, but appear at 100% researched).

[sagji]

The game refers to these as inventions - rather than technologies. I don't think they are hard coded - I think it is just that there is a small chance of discovering them each turn. A 1% chance means it takes about 4 years - but one nation may take a month and another 8 years.

[Stuyvesant]

You're stuck with Quetta?!? What idiot authorized that? I'd evacuate immediately - unless it's one of those opium-growing regions of Afghanistan, I can't see how Italian involvement is at all beneficial for you. Not so concerned about the British hissy fit, but I see you also border the Russians. And again, I just can't see how a bunch of unruly Pashto tribesmen are a worthy addition to the Italian Empire.

Which raises the relevant question: can you even divest yourself of the territory, or are you stuck with it until someone takes it off you?

Been meaning to watch Porco Rosso for a while, but as with any tv/movies, it's way down on the to-do list.

Final question: you state your prestige went up 10,000 points over the year. But you also claim you extracted circa 12,000 prestige from the Hun alone. Can you explain the discrepancy (have your enterprising 'businessmen' from the South now gone into prestige-skimming, besides their other [s]criminal[/s] lucrative engagements)?

[Jim-NC]

Both sides added to the prestige pile in the crisis. The total pot was ~14,000 prestige points, which was split between the 2 sides. It probably meant that Italy provided 8,000-10,000 to the pot, and Germany 4,000-6,000. I say that, as Italy has so much prestige (compared to Germany). Also. the amount added depends on the cards played by the adversaries (as several force you or your opponent to add prestige to the "pot", and some steal some of the "pot" away)

[Stuyvesant]

Both sides added to the prestige pile in the crisis. The total pot was ~14,000 prestige points, which was split between the 2 sides. It probably meant that Italy provided 8,000-10,000 to the pot, and Germany 4,000-6,000. I say that, as Italy has so much prestige (compared to Germany). Also. the amount added depends on the cards played by the adversaries (as several force you or your opponent to add prestige to the "pot", and some steal some of the "pot" away)

Ah yes, I forgot: the prestige in the pot doesn't appear out of thin air, but comes from the country's existing prestige stack. It makes sense now. Thanks!

[loki100]

So critical decision in your game (and mine) was not insuring that the Confederate States were successful in their failed war for independence in 1863 /1864. Thus allowing the full growth of the US economy.

Very much so, and rather clever as I presume it is the AI on its own drviing that expansion not by directive script. Something to bear in mind, if you want an outright win with a European power you'd better manage it by 1900.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but since it's a 'full war', you would have to virtually eliminate the USA and all it's units and then have the CSA to contest with (with likely a much smaller pool of cards... so probably would be successful, but not an easy ask at all). Hmm... maybe I'll start a new campaign on the side just to see if I can give the CSA that strong an ally...

I just hit 1910 in my game, and you aren't kidding about the number of Techs that fire. Thankfully my $$ is about 2/3rds of yours and pushing them all along isn't a problem. (as another side note- I also got an event telling me Russia had it's first car and plane... when I've had car and plane factories for several years! Does this mean every car we imported for the wealthy has been used as a fancy couch?)

I'm not sure how much chance the CSA has in game, even against a US AI. In my war, as far as I kept an eye on it, it seemed all one direction traffic and the only thing that kept the war going was the need for the US to win such an overwhelming victory.

For those less sure of the mechanism, there is no end to a 'full war' apart from total victory so very few in-game scripts evoke this concept ... I think just the Taiping, ACW and the war between Egypt and the Mahdi

Each country gets advancements at a different time. In our MP game, Germany has been producing cars for about 1 year, and as Britain, I am missing a critical tech, and so can't research cars. That means I am about 4.5 years behind them in that race. The odd thing is that the tech I need isn't researched, but "discovered" at 100% whenever it is discovered.

On the other hand, I was the first to get electrical factories (I had mine built before I think anyone else had started their plant, and so had a 1.5 year monopoly on production). Germany had a smal problem about this, as they had already upgraded a factory to a plant, and had to shut it down as they didn't have electrical parts.

I wonder if the discover dates for certain techs are hard coded for each country in the game, or if they are completely random (I am talking about the techs you don't research, but appear at 100% researched).

The game refers to these as inventions - rather than technologies. I don't think they are hard coded - I think it is just that there is a small chance of discovering them each turn. A 1% chance means it takes about 4 years - but one nation may take a month and another 8 years.

I think its random. A few game years back I was reviewing the AI nations – mainly to understand their naval builds but also to check out the state of their economies. All seemed to have odd gaps, so I think that both when a tech comes up for research and when you gain one by allocation are randomised.

You're stuck with Quetta?!? What idiot authorized that? I'd evacuate immediately - unless it's one of those opium-growing regions of Afghanistan, I can't see how Italian involvement is at all beneficial for you. Not so concerned about the British hissy fit, but I see you also border the Russians. And again, I just can't see how a bunch of unruly Pashto tribesmen are a worthy addition to the Italian Empire.

Which raises the relevant question: can you even divest yourself of the territory, or are you stuck with it until someone takes it off you?

Been meaning to watch Porco Rosso for a while, but as with any tv/movies, it's way down on the to-do list.

Final question: you state your prestige went up 10,000 points over the year. But you also claim you extracted circa 12,000 prestige from the Hun alone. Can you explain the discrepancy (have your enterprising 'businessmen' from the South now gone into prestige-skimming, besides their other [s]criminal[/s] lucrative engagements)?

Porco Rosso is a gem, probably the best of the Ghelbi anime in my opinion. So many wonderful lines.

I can't work out how I ended up with Quetta. My guess is it was an accident from the end of the British war, as the AI peace routine left a load of odd outcomes – I think the combination of colonial areas, military control etc was too much. I did a lot of scripts to sort things out but must have missed that one.

The only way I can transfer it is by script and I'm a bit unwilling to make it say Russian due to the odd combination of colonial area and military control. I'll just rely on my Russian chums to protect me.

Both sides added to the prestige pile in the crisis. The total pot was ~14,000 prestige points, which was split between the 2 sides. It probably meant that Italy provided 8,000-10,000 to the pot, and Germany 4,000-6,000. I say that, as Italy has so much prestige (compared to Germany). Also. the amount added depends on the cards played by the adversaries (as several force you or your opponent to add prestige to the "pot", and some steal some of the "pot" away)

Ah yes, I forgot: the prestige in the pot doesn't appear out of thin air, but comes from the country's existing prestige stack. It makes sense now. Thanks!

Indeed, I've managed to play 62 game years (just started 1912) without grasping that. My fault as both the manual and the tooltips are utterly clear – you add prestige to the pot, not that prestige is added to the pot from the fairy prestige fountain.

So to make a net gain, you've both got to protect your own and then gain more and its possible that allocation is asymetric. When I do the 1910 report proper, there is an excellent example of what happens when you commit lots of prestige but fail to protect me. Unfortunately, for me, it sees the USA really take GB to the cleaners – and the verge of war.

[loki100]

I'll use this update to do an overview of the wider world in 1910. Seems to be one of those dates where it is worth shifting focus from the immediate flow of the game. I'll also include a little bit of comparison between Italy now and at some important earlier dates.

The World

So there is China. It still seems to have problems with its Boxers but having adapted some of Christophe's scripts then Japan has made gains as have the Germans and Americans.



Moving south, things become a wee bit different. France had taken over modern day Cambodia but not Vietnam. Burma and Siam have maintained their independence. The British have an isolated province that annoys the Chinese and Russia holds Rangoon etc. This has to be filed under 'not got a clue how or why' but it is sure annoying the (annoying in their own right) British.



Central Asia is now mostly Russian (apart from Italian owned Quetta), but Tibet and Sinkiang are overrun by rebels.



In the Middle East, Italy is the dominant power in Arabia and the Levant. The Ottomans still hold Iraq and of course the Nejd world theme park is open for tourists.



West Africa is a complete guddle. Broadly Italy holds the coastal regions of modern day Nigeria, France has its traditional colonies to the north. Bits of the British empire are all over the place (this is showing military control not colonial penetration). Spain is having a bad time of it as most ot its colonies to the south of my area are now independent.



Southern Africa is pretty much as to be expected. The purple and brown Boers are independent, that blue bit is a native African state (as is the grey just above Cape Town).



Europe, is as you'd expect:



Italy's colonial regions give me effective dominance in central and eastern Africa. Here the darker the green the more secure my claim, and slowly I am gaining legitimacy for a lot of what I grabbed in the 1870s and 1880s.



By comparison in 1882 I was gaining 6 prestige per turn.

In terms of industrial power this offers a good overview:



That can be compared to 1894 (post the war with Britain) when the same screen was:



As then, I still use the tooltip as a guide to stocks I can run down or need to try and improve. Usually the ones that I need more of are not really available but it helps indicate when I need to restart production of some goods. What is interesting is my total stocks are down from almost 200,000 to just over 150,000. I think this reflects the extend that far more goods are now hard to buy and that I am having to prioritise my own production a lot more.

I've not shown the Americas as apart from the Boers taking Belize from Britain it is exactly as you'd expect it to be.

Hopefully that helps set the scene for the last 10 years. PoN has a very event driven model. In many games by the time you are in the late game (I'm thinking of say EU2 here) that is deeply frustrating as you have events that have no basis in the world you've created. I think the key in PoN is it is so hard to take territory from a major power unless it is acknowledged that you have the right to do so. This obviously doesn't apply if you opt for a more sandbox game but I like the effect.

I think the result is that when historical events do occur in late game in PoN they are still plausible. There are enough instances where history will be steered (and the ongoing work to improve chains will improve this) but still enough room for a more idiosyncratic world to emerge.

[loki100]

This update covers the events in 1910. These can be quickly sumarised as I worked out I can't do both guns and butter, GB got a complete beating from Russia and then the Americans and I end up wtih an awful lot of research to do.

So lets look at them in some detail:

Industry

Manufactures



Coal was the core problem. I think all those ships I created by script are starting to really use up the national production as it is very hard to buy in any:


(shows position for late August)

Non-Manufactures



As usual, less to say there. Almost all my domestic producion is open and it is hard to now buy much on the open market.

Militantism is down to around 25% and contentment around 95%. I was running a balance of payments deficit of around -5,200 for most of the year. I was meeting about 80% of food demands and all requests for common goods.

Research

An awful lot of techs appeared. Almost all military. Some give new units (both land and sea) and some improve either attack or defense values for the core units/

So this one will yield combat aircraft:



And tanks ... I like tanks



Worryingly, the sinister Sidney re-appears



But his imperial masters really lose a crisis with Russia:



So its very quickly good bye Sid.



Even so, the British get another diplomatic beating, this time off the USA:



Who seem to have been very serious about it all. That is only the second time in the game I've seen the AI play the ultimatum card.

That dumps GB down to #4 in the world and gives a load of prestige to America – I felt very aggrieved about this.

In the Balkans, tensions rise with a short lived revolt in Croatia



Just as that ended, the whole region exploded. And shortly after war commenced, it was clear that the Bulgarians were the new power in the region



Prestige



So the headline is that I have gained around 9,000 (from 269,630 to 278,950) and America almost 20,000 (from 178,251 to 197,855). Britain has lost prestige from 147,444 down to 127,576 and is now behind Russia.

This is not good news for my (non-existent) chances of an outright win but does help confirm the discussion of prestige gain/loss in a crisis.

The basic pot is constructed pro-rata to your existing prestige. This is then adjusted according to your choices (so I guess a good analogy is gambling). At the end that pot is allocated according to who won.

But the larger power has put a lot more in. So therefore, if it wants a net gain has to win bigger. This is a neat mechanism as it means if a big power goes all out to humiliate a small regional power then the world is not really that impressed by such bullying. If, on the other hand, you take on and beat a bigger power, its a way of announcing your arrival at the top table (say my 1870s wins against Austria). However, when I had my crisis with Prussia, even though I won substantially I also paid in most of the pot for the dispute so my dramatic win only saw a net gain of +1000 in terms of prestige.

Britain lost horribly as both crises were between roughly equal powers as they started wtih 10,000 more than Russia and 30,000 less than the USA. So the pot was built 1-1, but the allocation at the end was skewed badly against GB. If GB was still #2, then I would now have an outright victory as I'd have more than double their prestige, as it is the US has made a huge stride to catching me up.

In effect, in the view of the world's primary powers, Britain is now very much on the slide.



Final comments. That is the last update for 2013, I'm off to stay with family in Amersterdam and then back to Scotland in time to get drunk on New Years Eve. I've just started to play 1912 and it looks like the adjusted WW1 chain is going to work as re-designed.

So I'd like to thank every one who has left comments and corrected my many errors of understanding. Equally to all who read but leave no comments. To some extent,keeping an AAR like this going is a bit of an ego thing and comments and views are a very direct reward. In particular, I'd like to thank those who have followed this over from its earlier incarnations on the Paradox AGEOD forum. And to thank the Phils for crafting such a wonderfully deep and addictive game.

Anyways, hope you all have a good break, meet people you like and come back to the new year – to read about Europe drowning in a sea of blood while huge battleships set the oceans ablaze ....

[Christophe.Barot]

While there should be reluctance to replace serviceable ships - the situation here is too extreme as the ships are so totally obsolete then even the ships that should have replaced them when they became unserviceable are now totally obsolete. This sounds much more like the AI doesn't understand that ships don't upgrade and need to be scrapped.

I noticed same thing - not upgrading ships like armies is WAD I guess

still, I wish we could upgrade ships like we upgrade factories (basically, simulates keeping the crew, some secondary eqyuipment, and scratching the main things, from qeel to big gubns), perhaps it would be more manageable by AI and engine, and would get rid of the penalty (albeit sluight) of scrapping ships

and yes, none of us EVER saw AI build a single ship - AI parameters are not presently set not only to upgrade ships, but also to build some (the only one built are by events - ditto for railroad - I suspect this to be a bit complex for AI or threat eavaluation discard the naval factor - I scripted event for Japanese build up, one about German/British naval race is due soon, and I guess Loki ones must be fine too (perhaps i'd win time taking technical buildings from him and scripting the diplomatic/political conditions around)

[Christophe.Barot]

how the hell did Boers take something in Americas ? they built a fleet ????

or peace settlement I guess (must have missed many episodes)

and how the hell did British let the hook from them, even when I (Russian) was in Vienna, Budapest, Prague and Innsbruck and with 95% of their army dead, Austria wouldn't let the hook of Serbs, you forced peace by event ?

[Matnjord]

how the hell did Boers take something in Americas ? they built a fleet ????

or peace settlement I guess (must have missed many episodes)

and how the hell did British let the hook from them, even when I (Russian) was in Vienna, Budapest, Prague and Innsbruck and with 95% of their army dead, Austria wouldn't let the hook of Serbs, you forced peace by event ?

Italians came, smashed Britain to small bloody bits and then the Boers attacked. Great Britain succeeded in a great diplomatic shenanigan by giving them a chunk of south America whilst keeping most of South Africa. Why did the Boers accept? Probably because they wanted to experiment the thrill of having an overseas territory while at the same time discovering the wonders of jungle and humidity.



Anyway, poor poor little Britain, humiliated by what was a former colonial offspring AND by a royal offspring, the grand nephew of their greatest queen. Have children they said, it will be fun they said, even rewarding they said...

And now the balkan powder keg is real thing. Time to go and annex some minors I think, show them the benefit of being ruled by individuals with manly beards. What could possibly go wrong?

[Christophe.Barot]

LOL
thanks

guess it's high time to teach AI not to take / demand territories their real world counterpart had and may not have the slightest interest in

ditto for offering them, was one of my main Paradox games grievances (Britain offering slices of ..Ireland to ...Russia in a losing 7 years war for a separate peace, or Austria offering Tirol and Illyria to napoleon III trying to help risorgimento (they must have mistaken for his uncle (N the 1st), who was interested, but was a bigger Empire then) in Victoria

when I see Ottoman offering Palestine to Russia for a peace (Monk quarrel was about right of supervision about religious and civil matters by Russia, not ownership of Palestina, which did not interest russians - too far, not contiguous) or France offering Prussia la Reunion alone or with only ONE of Alasace and Lorraine, without the other, I tell myself there remains some adjustments to make to AI tests (Loki, make a remainder for discussing future AI improvements with team, you're in with me there ) and we're not done with it

[morningSIDEr]

Apologies for not commenting anywhere near enough, real life has proven rather busy unfortunately. Nonetheless, excellently excellent stuff.

Lots of warfare, industrial progress and impressive facial hair (well, reasonably impressive, some of the Italian Prime Ministers left a lot to be desired). The coming conflict looks highly promising too.

Without giving too much away, I've found that Asher413 is spot on. All that was released was Edinburgh (I mean what is the point of making your second largest city your capital?). A wee bit of scripting solved that, but I'll do a quick bug report too.

Clearly working as designed, the developers rightly recognised the overwhelming importance of Edinburgh.

Very much enjoying the machinations with regards to America, hopefully you can somehow pull it out of the bag and gain double their prestige (quite how I do not know).

Wishing you a very merry Christmas and a cracking new year, my good man!