Reformed Pontic Heavy Infanty Display Bug

[Chief Rudiger]

I've noticed twice now a bug with the Pontic 'imitation legion' element's display picture. A few days ago, when i first played the scenario, the elements picture was a composite of the pontic chariot, some hellenistic sword/shield equiped pedite (the word sounds normal now, why isn't it used more often?) and some kind of javelin thrower, all superimposed one on top of the other, which was odd. I logged into the forum to report it but when I reloaded the game the element was displaying as usual - just the hellenistic sword/shield figure. I carried on with my game, thinking it was a random error but it's just happened again! This time the "Pontic Heavy Infantry" element is displaying as some kind of warship! The skirmisher element displays as the same ship but with a man's head hovering above it!

WAD?


PS. Loved all the unit art kicking about in the graphics folder - can't wait to see the DLC scenarios.

PPS. Whats the "Doodads" graphic folder for?

[yellow ribbon]

if i see it right, the submenu for units construction is still open, is it?

there was a known problem of such overlaying grafic as long and shortly after the units construction menu was used, particular to the ships (originally reported for Roman units)

high chance its the same issue. can you proceed with turn processing, should be gone then.

[Chief Rudiger]

Okay, next question:

After capturing Nicomedia my recruitment bar shows two new Pontic Hoplite units types and one Peltast type. Why can't i build these anywhere on the map? I'm sure this happenned to me in another game as Pontus, and as the Romans in another scenario - is this a know bug?

Secondly, the smaller red hoplite unit is significantly cheaper than the orange one yet they both use the same element despite that elements stats being different. I assume they both use the same replacement elements too. Shouldn't they draw from different reinforcement pools so that the player has the option to only reinforce his better units?

Why is the red unit shown with swords - shouldn't hoplites be primarily spear armed? Are these in fact lighter troops? If so, should they not be described differently?

[yellow ribbon]

Okay, next question:

Secondly, the smaller red hoplite unit is significantly cheaper than the orange one yet they both use the same element despite that elements stats being different. I assume they both use the same replacement elements too. Shouldn't they draw from different reinforcement pools so that the player has the option to only reinforce his better units?

Why is the red unit shown with swords - shouldn't hoplites be primarily spear armed? Are these in fact lighter troops? If so, should they not be described differently?

a.) cant tell you much about the graphics itself, only the artist can. the kopís / κοπίς was a secondary weapon after -400, so even before Rome started to use the short sword as primary weapon. the pontic form of the Spathae-swords was used even until the 12th century.

i think its valid to have "merely sword"-units on the pontic side of the war,[color="#FF0000"] the name Hoplites however could be substituted.[/color], but to what?
yes, both units are heavy infantry, same replacements, doesnt matter what kind of weapon they use, only classification


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b.) the second (red) unit has considerably lower cohesion, discipline and assault value, its much weaker and, as stated above a different type. thereby it costs less.

[yellow ribbon]

[quote="Chief Rudiger"]Okay, next question:

After capturing Nicomedia my recruitment bar shows two new Pontic Hoplite units types and one Peltast type. Why can't i build these anywhere on the map? I'm sure this happenned to me in another game as Pontus, and as the Romans in another scenario - is this a know bug?
[quote]

well, we need the developers to ask whether the unit can only be build in the area the city or if there is any total limit of units

also, can you please check the loyalty and the military control values of the region...

[Ebbingford]

After capturing Nicomedia my recruitment bar shows two new Pontic Hoplite units types and one Peltast type. Why can't i build these anywhere on the map? I'm sure this happenned to me in another game as Pontus, and as the Romans in another scenario - is this a know bug?

It is normally because you do not have enough military control or loyalty in the regions in which these units can be built.

[Chief Rudiger]

a.) cant tell you much about the graphics itself, only the artist can. the kopís / κοπίς was a secondary weapon after -400, so even before Rome started to use the short sword as primary weapon. the pontic form of the Spathae-swords was used even until the 12th century.

i think its valid to have "merely sword"-units on the pontic side of the war,[color="#FF0000"] the name Hoplites however could be substituted.[/color], but to what?
yes, both units are heavy infantry, same replacements, doesnt matter what kind of weapon they use, only classification

It was my understanding that most Hellenistic heavy infantry were primarily spear armed, so if this is an 'allied' Hellenistic nation's unit then shouldn't it be a low quality spear (or sarissa) equiped unit instead? Representing half of the recruitable hellenistic infanty as primarily sword based seems odd, particularly as there is a special event that makes a limited number Pontic sword (and pila) based roman inspired infantry recruitable. Should these Pontic legions not be distinct?

[yellow ribbon]

It was my understanding that most Hellenistic heavy infantry were primarily spear armed, so if this is an 'allied' Hellenistic nation's unit then shouldn't it be a low quality spear (or sarissa) equiped unit instead? Representing half of the recruitable hellenistic infanty as primarily sword based seems odd, particularly as there is a special event that makes a limited number Pontic sword (and pila) based roman inspired infantry recruitable. Should these Pontic legions not be distinct?

i am not an expert, but i fear you are hanging too much on the description of Hoplites and Phalanx.

1.) Pontians had territory in Greece, thus the fighting forces are influenced by both, cavalry tactic of Asia minor and hoplites of the Greece mainland.

2.) the diversity was quite high, aside of hoplites you find Peltasts, thureoforos and other infantry.

3.) the problem in AIE, you have light troops and heavy infantry. the hoplites are the counterpart of the legions, here in your case you have weak heavy infantry (with the swords). there has to be a clear difference to soft targets like horsemen, bowmen, etc. thus the swordsmen end up in the category of heavy infantry, i suppose.

the sword however was, as said the decisive weapon in Asia minor long before Romans developed their tactics. for gameplay, for sure, a other classification name than hoplites would be desirable. but since nothing between heavy infantry and light troops exists, i am not sure how one could implement it...

4.) remember that the artwork is done for a limited number of models. sure, many more details could have been used, but certainly it might have been a question of time/money... truly, i dont know. obviously the graphic was recycled to gain more diversified troop models and i imagine, that non-Romans are left to improvement by further scenario packs, rather than the main game.

5.) i.e. historical sources, to bring you away from the "300" perspective (i am kidding)

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/17851386...enistic-Period

similar you can find for Greek, Pontian and barbarian fighters. As said, if we wouldnt label them hoplites but mercenaries, the job would be done already. barbarians and thracian fighting, as well as celtic warriors (gallatians) heavily relied on different swords and Pontian sword design barley changed over 800 years time span, due to its quality.

historical sidemark:

for the Sarissa, its quite proven that the balance of the long weapon needs both hands, shields are only bound to the elbow, upper arm or most possibly the shoulder. trust me spear/long spear and shield like in "300" works (phalangites),
Sarissa and shield are barely useful in any closed formation, either fighting or turning the arm/shoulder to protect himself, for the left arm is lowered, wielding the lower end of the sarissa... at least smart folks with that kind of degrees say so, experimental archeology tells the same

[yellow ribbon]

PS:

for the linked document, page 14 addressed the swords / exterior influence

Edit:

link seems to be cut, its simply The Bithynian Army in the Hellenistic Period

[Chief Rudiger]

Thanks for the reference (here's a working link for anyone else whose interested)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/77028781/The-Bithynian-Army-in-the-Hellenistic-Period

It seems to me that "Pedite" is already used to describe many faction's second-rate heavy infantry and would therefore be applicable in this case too.

Whether its historically accurate or not I've put the head from "Unit_HEL_Hypaspist2.png" onto the unarmoured kopis & thureos weilding body of "Unit_BAL_Heavy3.png" to make what I think looks a bit more second rate!

[yellow ribbon]

i always figured that Perdites is a generic term, to have as few classes of units in game a s possible, so you are right they are used frequently for the above mentioned purpose....

i looked it up in the morning. I have a vague guess, that Osprey is the guilty again (as in some Total War Games). There seems to be a mix up of equipment over the years, Osprey suggest Hoplites with nearly exactly this picture (second line heavy infantry) and some Authors took liberties to say its also same like with Alexander the Great in their books.

then you ave furthermore the PELTAST in most books for Greece without sword, for Asia and Thracia always with sword, described as well as light troops, as as skirmishes.
so in Games terms, they are somewhere lost between heavy infantry and Aux troops (light infantry) and even could be used as model base for javelins infantry...

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vs. Alexander the Greats time

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[yellow ribbon]

thereby not fighting as lancers, but spear throwing, mostly depicted with swords behind the shield, what however, giving historical pictures, doesnt make much sense for some time periods, while it makes sense if you run out of the few ammo

[Chief Rudiger]

It would be nice if the individual elements of a homogeneous unit were represented by a variety of different graphics, not linked to experience. One might make 40% of the elements spearmen, 40% swordmen and the remainder some kind of medium javelin equipped swordsmen (i.e. not enough to imply the 'unit' as a whole had an actual ranged attack), especially among less 'standardized' Roman units.

I remeber someone made a nice mod for AACW that increased the variety of hats and other accoutrements in the Confederate graphics to make each unit look a bit scruffier!

[yellow ribbon]

oh, private mods already started

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?26119-wijse-s-AJE-graphic-modifications