Ballista, where art thou?

[MishaTX]

Hiya, all. Terrible noob question coming up, so let me start by saying how awesome this game is. I can't believe why it took me so long to be lured in by AGEOD games, because so far I'm having far more fun than one ought to be having with one's clothes on!

I do have a question, though (I'll probably have plenty in the future, so bear with me), and I couldn't find anything by searching or by reading the manual:

I'm currently playing the 3rd Samnite War (because I'm a history freak and I just HAVE to play everything in chronological order), and I can't seem to build any ballistae with my glorious Roman legions

They built one, once, after I made my first move into Maleventum with all four of my legions. I haven't seen one since. Bovianum, Grumentum, Silvium, Volsinii, my lazy legionnaires just sit around on their duffs and refuse to slap a few of them together. They've been supplied, at full strength and cohesion, led by active Roman Consuls, moving in in Assault, Offensive, Defensive posture... Nothing. Bovianum in particular took quite a few months, but in spite of all four of them being there all the time, I never saw another ballista.

I know I'm missing something here, it's just the "what" that I can't figure out.

Is there a "create ballista check" that has to be passed and is it extremely low for this scenario? If so, I guess I was just extremely lucky at Maleventum, but that would explain it. I just want to make sure that it's not my install that is bugged or me being an utter dunce.

Thanks

[loki100]

Just done a quick check - did nothing but move the Roman legions to siege. I think you can only have one siege engine in use at any one time and the chance of it appearing is related to the strategic score of the leader. So the at start consul (Barbetus 5-3-0) seems to spawn one every time he starts a siege (maybe after a turn delay), none of the others passed the test in my short game. But Barbetus produced 2 so its not just one for the game.

So my assumption is the legions at this stage are not really that different to other Italian formations but with a small advantage in siege work. Looks like the scenario is designed around long sieges and towns surrendering due to starvation rather than the relative efficiency of scenarios set later in the Republic

agree, truely great game

[MishaTX]

That makes sense. Particularly the tie-in with the strategic rating of the leader, since the Roman Consuls in this game, with a couple of exceptions, aren't exactly gods among men

And of course, as is always the case, the very moment I'd posted the above after having waited patiently for month after month for a ballista to show up, one showed up as I started the game back up and continued

It's like when you take your car to the shop for that irritating noise you've been hearing for weeks and then, the moment you roll into his lot, it disappears.

I think the reason I was worried that I was Doing It Wrong™ or my install was bugged was that I'd watched a couple of let's plays to get the "feel" of the game before starting. I like to do that before starting a new game, particularly if it's one with a lot of depth and detail like this one, mainly because I don't want to be spending the first 20 hours not having a single clue what I'm supposed to do. I do love having my butt handed to me in the beginning as I learn, that's part of the fun, but I don't want to spend that learning time doing mostly nothing but trying to wrap my head around basic mechanics. Anyway, in those one or two let's plays, the ballistae, definitely plural, seemed to appear immediately every time a legion marched into a province with a city, but that may very well have been because, if I remember correctly, the leader leading them was somebody like Caesar or Marcus Antonius. Quite a bit more impressive than Barbatus or Centumalus.

Fun scenario, though, although I definitely have to crank up the difficulty a bit, because either I was extremely lucky or the AI was extremely passive. Probably the former as I've seen it pull off quite a few tricks in let's plays. It's definitely not a pushover like in some other games I've played.

Next question, completely unrelated: "Control" of victory points (as in actually getting the points and not having it say "uncontrolled" or "contested" in mouse-over). Per the manual, you can get that by getting loyalty above 51% or by leaving a military garrison. Makes sense. However, I'm not entirely clear on what, exactly, constitutes a "proper" military garrison. I tried with militia in the cities, but that didn't cut it. That's OK, since they're pretty much rabble. Legions worked, but particularly in that scenario, they're a bit too precious to leave sitting around doing nothing just to harvest a few VPs.

It's not a huge deal, since the first objective is to deny the VPs to the enemy, but I just can't seem to figure out how much is "enough" and I don't want to overkill either. Those troops can be used elsewhere, so I'd rather not leave more than I absolutely have to.

Anyway, I have a sneaking suspicion that I'll be "wasting" a lot of my time with AGEOD titles in the future. I was reluctant for the longest time because I'm a traditional "hexes and counters" kind of grog, but that was my loss. I intend to make up for that now that I've found out just how brilliant they are.

Thanks for the reply, loki!

P.S.: I was reading The Hero, The Traitor and the Barbarian as part of my "introductory training", and I knew there was just something about your username and "style" that made me think 'I know this guy!" And then it clicked. It may have been the pictures of Anna Magnani at the end . I've been reading your WitE AARs too (because if you don't absolutely love that game, you're not a wargamer ) and loved every line of them. Just as I loved this one. Just thought you should know you had a fan

[deidaraakatski]

If I recall any military unit besides a militia that occupies an objective city with a loyalty less than 51% (as you already know, any objective city with anything less of such loyalty do not count towards VP) will count towards the VP score. And even if I'm wrong (as it is quite possible the cavalry might not count either), this information can be found in the manual.

BTW TO ANSWER YOUR SIEGE BALLISTAE QUESTION:

A new feature of Alea Jacta Est is the way the Roman Legions siege expertise is represented. When a full Legion unit (not a smaller unit merely containing legionaries, such as a praesidium (garrison) or vexillatio (detachment)) is besieging, it will start attempting to build siege engines (depicted as Ballistae).
Those units will be fixed in the region where the siege takes place, and at most each legion will be able to construct two such siege engines units for the siege. Those units will remain there as long as the siege continues, and will improve siege resolution. ~Source: Manual

Therefore, it is quite possible that some of your armies don't exactly contain "full" legion units, and any "full" legion units each respectively may only maximum build two siege engines. In fact, the siege value score when besieging a city is actually a random value each time, so having ballistae is not guarantee to breach the structure. The same is for the defensive value of the force, that too is randomly generated, AND any defensive structures (especially walls) add a bonus equal to its level. (A level three fort provides a value of 3 to the defensive siege value). What that means is you must have a siege value of 3 or more in order to remotely have the possibility of breaching the structure and causing hits on the enemy.

In fact, what is more important than any ballistae, is any general or unit that contains the 'siege expert' ability (well, actually ballistaes contain this ability) as this adds points to your offensive siege value. Some Roman generals also contain a special ability to assault structures without having to breach them first !

Also, @loki, my goodness, that first AAR link I clicked is massive. I wonder how long it took to create such massive and detailed story.

[arsan]

Hi
For what i know:
- imperial era legions have much higher chance of building ballistae than republican era. I guess to represent they were more profesional.

- Region terrain matters. Building ballistae on semi desertic regions like north Africa is very hard, to represent lack of builsing materials (wood).

Regards

[Philippe]

I suspect that Romans didn't have (or at least use) a lot of the engineering technology that we associate with them at the start of the 3rd century. They had learned quite a bit from the Etruscans (look at a photograph of the Cloaca Maxima and you'll see what I mean), but their big advances probably came as they incorporated skilled Greek technicians and their technology into their own knowledge base. Much of what we think of as Roman technology was actually Southern Italian Hellenistic Greek, and a lot of siegecraft was learned in the first Punic War during the long sieges in Sicily. So if the game isn't rushing to give you siege equipment during the 3rd Samnite War, that's probably a plus for realism rather than a fault with the game.

The Greeks themselves had only developed modern siegecraft during the course of the 4th century: what passed for Greek siegecraft in the fifth century was a joke. But what they had developed by the end of the 4th century was pretty impressive (think of Demetrius Poliorcetes and his siege train).

The Romans had a genius for knowing a good thing when they saw it, and they saw a lot of good things coming out of the Syracusan R&D program.

[MishaTX]

So if the game isn't rushing to give you siege equipment during the 3rd Samnite War, that's probably a plus for realism rather than a fault with the game.

I agree completely, and it seems to be exactly what's happening here, which is perfect in my opinion. My only concern was that I might be doing it wrong, missing something or that my install was corrupted. When the next ballista showed up, I knew that wasn't the case. One more of those amazing details that make this game stand out

[loki100]

...
Thanks for the reply, loki!

P.S.: I was reading The Hero, The Traitor and the Barbarian as part of my "introductory training", and I knew there was just something about your username and "style" that made me think 'I know this guy!" And then it clicked. It may have been the pictures of Anna Magnani at the end . I've been reading your WitE AARs too (because if you don't absolutely love that game, you're not a wargamer ) and loved every line of them. Just as I loved this one. Just thought you should know you had a fan

ah, my delight in Italian neo-realism cinema does keep popping up. I actually learnt Italian watching Anna Magnani films when I was living in Rome - all helped as the acting is rarely ambigious.

At the moment, I'm doing alpha work for WiTE2 and that is shaping up to be even better. With a more realistic supply and combat system you have much more friction and in turn that naturally gives a lot of the stop-start/ebb-flow of the Eastern Front

But my quick check into the 3rd Samnite War reminded me just how good AJE is. Need to complete a RuS Gold PBEM and then back to this

edit - I agree the AI seems too passive, in my test it hid a huge army in a city, made one attempt to break out and then later surrendered due to starvation. I ran the test on neutral settings so I'd certainly give the AI a help if I replayed the scenario.

....

Also, @loki, my goodness, that first AAR link I clicked is massive. I wonder how long it took to create such massive and detailed story.

in that AAR it was Narwhal who did all the work - his series of 'beginners corners' (spread across a few AARs) should be required reading. Ok the game engine has shifted in some respects but the fundamentals remain the same and I think they go a long way to allowing players to understand what happens out of sight - which seems to be a common complaint

[MishaTX]

At the moment, I'm doing alpha work for WiTE2 and that is shaping up to be even better. With a more realistic supply and combat system you have much more friction and in turn that naturally gives a lot of the stop-start/ebb-flow of the Eastern Front

Yay! All aboard the hype train! I know I am on it for sure!