Principes #1

[Vincentius]

Why in a manipular legion in the game there is an unit of 600 men named "Principes #1" ? Is it historical accurate ? Tell me about it please.

[PhilThib]

The first cohort (Principes #1) was usually overstrengthed and made of the best troops..in our design, they are of better quality than the others

[Vincentius]

I knew that the marian legion had the first cohort overstrenghted but I didn't know that also the manipular legion had it too.

I noticed a mistake in the legion though. Since each manipular legion had 4.500 men (including equites), in the game there should be 1.200 velites, 1.200 hastati, 1.200 principes. 600 triarii, 300 equites. For the hastati, velites, equites and maybe for the principes it's ok, but for Triarii not, because the number is double (1.200).

[El Nino]

In fact, the triarii were only 600 because they were veterans (the others old soldiers were dead !).

Sources : Polybes, Livi, ...

So a classical legion is 4500 mens (1200 + 1200 + 1200 + 600 + 300)

[Vincentius]

Yes but in the game, in the Roman legion, are 1200, you should correct the number. Maybe I haven't been clear enough

P.S. Sorry, instead of "should" I had written "would"

[Vincentius]

Look at this image, you can easily note that there are two cohorts of triarii (that are the double of the normal), and three ones of Principes:

[Ech Heftag]

I knew that the marian legion had the first cohort overstrenghted but I didn't know that also the manipular legion had it too.

I noticed a mistake in the legion though. Since each manipular legion had 4.500 men (including equites), in the game there should be 1.200 velites, 1.200 hastati, 1.200 principes. 600 triarii, 300 equites. For the hastati, velites, equites and maybe for the principes it's ok, but for Triarii not, because the number is double (1.200).

I think this is mainly a design decision to give the legions a 10-element structure.

Also, keep in mind that the actual number of centuries was the same for hastati, principes and triarii. The difference in strength came from the lower number of men in a triarii century (30 men instead of the 80 men in the other centuries). So if you want to make the legion design in BoR as authentic as possible, you would have to maintain the current 10-element setup, but reduce the number of men in the triarii elements. I don't know if that would have any adverse effects on their combat proficiency, though.

[Vincentius]

In any case the number should be corrected, to have at the end 4.500 men

[hanny1]

I knew that the marian legion had the first cohort overstrenghted but I didn't know that also the manipular legion had it too.

I noticed a mistake in the legion though. Since each manipular legion had 4.500 men (including equites), in the game there should be 1.200 velites, 1.200 hastati, 1.200 principes. 600 triarii, 300 equites. For the hastati, velites, equites and maybe for the principes it's ok, but for Triarii not, because the number is double (1.200).

The BoR and HAN scns were fought with the manipular legion, cohorts not existing as combat elements, the cohort being an administrative only aplication, so they should not be present. Also in 211 and 215 Rome changed its armament and function of the roari, becomming velites.


mid first cent the cohort with larger first cohort comes into use to replace the manipular legion as the principle combat element.

Easy to swap in/out the file with it eddittd out btw rather than add in the unit as a new version.
Because Rome losses a large combat value, making the Legions less powerfull, its a good idea to increase the total number of Legions closer to historical numbers**, a total of 6 to 8 range might work, either increasing the 2 instances of force pool additions, or adding a third such isnstance.

On a related note, Bal slingers incorporated into liby/phoeni units as elements rather than seperate units gives a better feel to combat.

** 30 largest battles yield:
Carthage manpower used.
745500
Carthage losses
250700
Roman manpower Used.
753900
Roman losses
274910

Brunt gives Rome/italian manpower at 3.5 million free 4 million total, with 28% being of mil age, Hoyos gives 3.7-4.3million for Carthage. Hoyas a;lso has some interesting economic comparisons anda total income level.