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Narwhal
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*** Guide : Combat - Fire phase ***

Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:45 pm

Now we have seen the frontage rule, I am going to carry on and explain how combat itself is processed. But combat is quite long, so this first part will be about the combat until the end of the ranged combat only. Melee with be a third beginner’s corner, routing the last.
As we are in AJE, ranged combat has an extremely minor impact – but it is of course much much more important for other AJE games. In addition, it allows you to have a good idea of how a battle work on other items (initiative, command test,…).
For our little test, we are going to run a game where a unit Pontic (Hellenistic) Sagittarii is meeting a unit Optimates Cretan archers in front of Epirus. The Romans are without leader, while the Pontics have Archelaos leading the stack, and XXXXX merged with the unit. The Romans are in defense.
The Roman unit has 3 archer elements, while the Pontic unit has 2 javelinmen elements and one slinger elements.

Here are they :

Image

Now, I put my game in “debug” mode (option/system/error logging) so the game generates a “battle log” after each battle. I am going to use it to illustrate the battle.

Here are the different phases of the battle :

Administrative phase

In this phase, the game will first check the terrain, the forces in presences, the skills that are going to be used etc… No decision is made.

13:31:18 (Reporting) <<<-----START----->>>
19:00:47 (Reporting) Starting CheckBattles, a battle occurs in region Epirus at day 25
19:00:47 (Reporting) Outside terrain only (used only for range and Abies): Wooded Hills effects on Max Range: 4 Range Mod: 0 Weather: Fair
19:00:47 (Reporting) Checking Battle Abilities given by 1004421 Sagittarii I (Cre) [color="#FF0000"]The Sagittarii units has a special ability
[/color]
Image
19:00:47 (Reporting) Unit Sagittarii I (Cre) [7/Skirmisher] Off: 100 Def: 100 Aslt: 100 Init: 1 [color="#FF0000"]Basically, this trait gives +1 initiative, but keeps Offensive and Defensive at 100% of their base value[/color]
19:00:47 (Reporting) ---> ROF: 0 Prot: 0 Disc(TQ): 0 [color="#FF0000"]Turns out “skirmisher” has no impact on ROF, Protection, Discipline either…[/color]
19:00:47 (Reporting) ---> LandingPerc: 100 CrossingPerc: 100 ChargerMod: 0 CChargeMod: 0 [color="#FF0000"]…nor on all these things (the landing / crossing mali, the charge bonus and the counter-charge bonus) [/color]


I cut here, but he does the same with all the units / stacks

19:00:47 (Reporting) GetRound SubList 8 SUs can be involved during this round..[color="#FF0000"]In this round, 8 elements can be involved – so the garrison is left out as it is in the structure. The 8 elements are the two leaders, the 3 archers, 2 javelinmen and the slinger [/color]
19:00:47 (Reporting) Round: 0 Optimates is committing 3 Lines SUs and 0 Supports SUs
19:00:47 (Reporting) Round: 0 Pontus is committing 3 Lines SUs and 1 Supports SUs


Command Test

You remember the “out of command” malus when you do not have enough Command Point in the stack – the little number in red going from 5% to 25%. Well, it plays a role here.

Each stack with a command malus have ALL its elements run two tests with a chance of failure equal to the command malus :
- Failure of the first test makes the element lose one in rate of fire
- Failure of the second test makes the element lose one or two (depending on the command malus) in initiative.

In addition, each element must do a “quality test” under its initiative. If it fails, all is not lost, the element can “save” by making a test under the offensive / defensive of the leader. If even this is failed, the unit loses one more in ROF (I suppose this make more sense in 18th century warfare, but the impact is neglectable in AJE so it was kept in)

The engine will also use this opportunity to select which elements will fill-up the frontage in order to respect the frontage limit. This is random, but units already committed in an earlier round has an higher chance to have their elements picked up, while wounded / incohesive units have less chance.

19:00:47 (Reporting) PON 1004381 Hellenistic Javelinmen [Line] Round ROF: 1 Round Initiative: 7 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
19:00:47 (Reporting) OPT 1004376 Hellenistic Archer [Line] Round ROF: 2 Round Initiative: 8 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
19:00:47 (Reporting) OPT 1004377 Hellenistic Archer [Line] Round ROF: 2 Round Initiative: 8 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
19:00:47 (Reporting) OPT 1004375 Hellenistic Archer [Line] Round ROF: 2 Round Initiative: 8 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
19:00:47 (Reporting) PON 1004382 Hellenistic Javelinmen [Line] Round ROF: 1 Round Initiative: 7 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
19:00:47 (Reporting) PON 1004380 Hellenistic Slinger [Line] Round ROF: 2 Round Initiative: 8 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
19:00:47 (Reporting) PON 1002451 Archelaos [Support] Round ROF: 1 Round Initiative: 10 BattleGround: Wooded Hills


Everyone passed the test. If they did not, you would see something like this (failure of the initiative test : )

13:31:18 (Reporting) Failed TQ in battle Hellenistic Archer Adj Quality 5 Leader bonus 0
13:31:18 (Reporting) OPT 1004376 Hellenistic Archer [Line] Round ROF: 1 Round Initiative: 8 BattleGround: Hills As you can see, ROF is one instead of two


Firing phase

The first round of the battle will start at the highest possible range. In this battle, you can see that the terrain allows a range of 4, the Roman archers have a range of 2 and the Pontics a range of 1. Thus, the first round will start at range 2 – and only the Romans will fire.

Let’s take the first shoot, which targets the slingers :

19:00:47 (Reporting) *** Start of action # 1 1004375 Hellenistic Archer vs 1004380 Hellenistic Slinger ***
19:00:47 (Reporting) Attacker belong to a defending group SubType: Regular Defender belong to a attacking group SubType: Regular


The engine will pick among the eligible elements one, proceed to make it shoot at another element on the other side.
The chance to hit are calculated taking into account the following :
- Offensive (or defensive, if in defense) fire
- Terrain bonus (see below)
- Leader bonus (+10% per point of the relevant skill (Offense / defense) of the stack AND the unit leader as of 1.00)
- A bonus of discipline – 5% by point of difference between the discipline of the unit and 5.
- Malus due to insufficient cohesion
- Malus due to insufficient losses
The final result is multiplied by 250% (in AJE) to get the chances to hit.
Well, usually, the protection kicks in at this moment, but the slingers have none, so we will ignore that.

So obviously, we need to know what the terrain bonuses are. Here are they, in the GameDate/Terrain once again, depending on the type of element :

Image

The two first numbers are the Fire bonus / malus to shooting (in %) to the attacker / defender
The two following are the Protection bonus / malus given to the attacker / defender
Finally, the two last are the TQ (discipline) bonus / malus given to the attacker / defender in melee. Not useful for now.

So let’s try to value the chance for a Roman archer :

Image

Let’s check this in the engine :

19:00:47 (Reporting) Battle effectiveness with leader rating: 100.00%
19:00:47 (Reporting) Firer value with leader tactical rating: 7.50
19:00:47 (Reporting) Firer value with TQ correction: 7.50
19:00:47 (Reporting) Firer value with cohesion: 7.50
19:00:47 (Reporting) Firer value with penalty from losses: 7.50
19:00:47 (Reporting) Firer final fire value: 7.50
19:00:47 (Reporting) Receiver base protection: 0.00
19:00:47 (Reporting) Receiver protection with terrain: -1.00
19:00:47 (Reporting) Receiver protection with entrenchment: -1.00
19:00:47 (Reporting) Receiver final Prot value: -1.00
19:00:47 (Reporting) ToHitCoeff %: 250 ATK ROE %: 100 DEF ROE %: 100
19:00:47 (Reporting) Attacker final To Hit (%): 19.00


If hit, the unit loses 1 “strength point” and 5 “cohesion points” as indicated in the “detailed panel” of the element, at the line “Ranged damage”.
Check :
19:00:47 (Reporting) Attacker DmgDone: 1 CohDone: 5 AsltDmgDone 1 AsltCohDone: 5
19:00:47 (Reporting) Attacker ToHit: 19.00 rolled a 19 scoring a hit Defender remaining Health&Cohesion 9 / 71


Once all the archers have fired as much as they have in rate of fire, the range decrease by one (we are now in range 1), and everyone starts again to shoot.

19:00:47 (Reporting) Round: 0 Battle is now at range 1
19:00:47 (Reporting) There are 6 SU eligibles to attack at this range (1).
19:00:47 (Reporting) Picked: PON Archelaos' Army 1004382 Hellenistic Javelinmen firing

[I don’t want to deal the retreat attempts in this Corner – so I did not mention them for now]

This time, the javelinmen and the slingers are at range, so initiative has a role. I cannot show it with the log, but the developer explained me that all the elements are put in a “randomizing bag”, and one element is randomly picked, each element being “weighted” according to its initiative.

What would be good for me to illustrate the combats would be for a Pontic to be …
19:00:47 (Reporting) *** Start of action # 7 1004382 Hellenistic Javelinmen vs 1004377 Hellenistic Archer ***


… oh ! Great !
So let’s calculate the final fire value for our javelimen :

Image

Check :

19:00:47 (Reporting) Firer base fire: 9.00
19:00:47 (Reporting) Firer value with terrain: 7.20
19:00:47 (Reporting) Hellenistic Javelinmen - Commander: Archelaos Cmd Coeff. %: 140
19:00:47 (Reporting) Hellenistic Javelinmen - Unit Commander: Diogenes Cmd Coeff. %: 120
19:00:47 (Reporting) Battle effectiveness with leader rating: 160.00%
19:00:47 (Reporting) Firer value with leader tactical rating: 11.52
19:00:47 (Reporting) Firer value with TQ correction: 10.94
19:00:47 (Reporting) Firer value with cohesion: 10.94
19:00:47 (Reporting) Firer value with penalty from losses: 10.94
19:00:47 (Reporting) Firer final fire value: 10.94


Now, there is something different here – our unit has protection.

The protection is calculated the following way :
- Base protection of the unit
- protection malus due to terrain,
- protection bonus due to entrenchment

Each point of this “final protection” reduce by 10% each time the chance to hit (so 2 in protection reduce by 10%, and then the result by another 10% - not by straight 20% ; the impact is minimal for ground troops but significant for ships which have high protection). There is no malus for negative protection.

Here is our calculation for this unit :

Image


Check :
19:00:47 (Reporting) Attacker final To Hit (%): 25.00
19:00:47 (Reporting) Attacker rolled a 63 and failed to hit


Well, that’s all for the examples.

After all the attacks at range 1 are finished, it is range 0 – assault ; which is for the next episode.

After the assault phase, the round ends, and a new round starts. The starting range of the following round is always 1.

A final note on the cohesion and losses effect :

As long as your element has 60% of its initial cohesion, your unit will have no ill effect in firing. Afterward, it will decrease rather sharply.

As for losses, the first malus only triggers when the element has 25% or less of its health, it has a 50% malus. If it has 50% or less of its health, it has a 25% malus. This is due to the fact that the less experimented guys died first. There will be an example in the "melee phase" example.


Addendum

- Impact of stances

The chances to hit (range and melee) are increased or decreased according to the stance of each side.
Here is what their effects are :
- All-out attack gives you +35% of chance to hit the first round, but gives your opponent +50% the first round. These 2 bonus will slowly go down as turns pass.
- Conservative attacks will give -30% chance to hit to both sides starting on the 3rd round,
- Feint attack – 70% starting from the second round
- Defend at all costs gives +10% to both sides

All other stances give no specific bonus.

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caranorn
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:27 am

Very informative, thanks :-D ...
Marc aka Caran...

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Hobbes
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:39 am

Great stuff! :thumbsup:
Thanks Narwhal

Chris

Cfant
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:34 pm

Great explanation - as usual. Thank you very much! :)

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Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:37 pm

Wow ... I'm speechless!
Great stuff!!

JacquesDeLalaingII
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Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:01 am

Very, very interesting, Narwhal. Thanks a lot! I learned a lot, especially in the "command test"-part. Do you have a clue how elements pick their target elements? Pocus sometimes said something about "combat signatures". So elements probably can have a higher or lower chance to be picked in combat? This topic also includes the question (which is very important for organizing forces - especially in other AGEOD titles) if a unit (legion or individual unit) always targets only one single enemy unit.

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caranorn
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Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:23 am

JacquesDeLalaingII wrote:Very, very interesting, Narwhal. Thanks a lot! I learned a lot, especially in the "command test"-part. Do you have a clue how elements pick their target elements? Pocus sometimes said something about "combat signatures". So elements probably can have a higher or lower chance to be picked in combat? This topic also includes the question (which is very important for organizing forces - especially in other AGEOD titles) if a unit (legion or individual unit) always targets only one single enemy unit.


From previous games I seem to recall that more powerful units are more likely to get picked as targets. So I would expect legionary cohorts would be more likely than auxiliaries etc. But not sure about this...
Marc aka Caran...

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jack54
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Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:36 pm

:thumbsup: Thank you, Great Work!
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Vonmans
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Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:43 am

A little cuestion. I fight a battle. Report says combat has started at range 2. Then i look on detailed report, i clik on round 1(supposedly fought at range 2), and i see
phalanxes inficting casualities(they have range 0).Why?

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JacquesDeLalaing
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Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:10 am

As far as I know
round 1 is carried out at: max. range (depends on weather) until melee range; e.g.: 4,3,2,1,melee
Rounds 2,3,4,5,6 are carried out at ranges: 1, melee

To sum it up: round 1 sees actions at all ranges, while the following rounds only see actions at range 1 and melee. Thus ranged weapons will have most impact in round 1, when they can potentially shoot multiple times at multiple ranges.
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Stoertebeker
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Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:27 pm

Yepp. Great findings and writeup, Narwhal!

Inspired by your work, I tested your findings with RoP. Everything seems fine.
[Edit: removed a passage which was wrong]

Little sidenotes: an out-of-command penalty is multiplied by the stackleaders' tactical rating. If the leaderrating on one side is less than 1 (or 100%) due to ooc-penalties, this will raise the chance to hit for the other side. (Whereas it won't lower the chance to hit the enemy.)

I also found, that the cohesion malus seems to have very little influence on hitchances and kicks in quite late. A saxon element with 25/66 cohesion suffered no penalty when firing on my brave grenadiers. Again: Maybe this is RoP-special.

As I'm a friend of formalization, I derived the following formula, which should be correct for AJE as well (only some multipliers should vary):

Hitchance Formula:
RFP*AM*TQM*TCM*PM*EM*SM*WTM*CM*HM*Koeff*RoEM

Whereas:
RFP = relevant firepower of the unit (off/def)
AM = ability modifier (special abilities of unit-/stackleader)
TQM = troop quality modifier: TQ-5*0,05
TCM = total command modifier: 1+(relevant stackleaders rating*0,05*(1-out of command penalty/100)+relevant unitleaders rating*0,03)-(the respective ratings of the enemies commanders) (In AJE, the multiplier for leader ratings seems to be higher)
PM = protection modifier (of the defending unit): (1-(level of enemies entrechment/10))*(1-terrain protection/10)*(1-unit protection/10)
EM = entrechment modifier (artillery only): 1+Level of entrenchment/10
SM = supply modifier. If a supply wagon is present in the stack (?) it's 1,1.
WTM = weather/terrain modifier: dependent on the kind of troop and terrain/wheather. Data can be found in the terrain excel sheets. (Then has to be divided by 100.)
CM = Cohesion modifier. It's 1 as long as cohesion is more than ca. 20/max and then decreases.
HM = Hitpoint modifier. It's 1 as long the unit has more than 0,5/max of it's healthpoints and then decreases.
Koeff = a fixed number that may vary among AGE-Games. In RoP, it's 2.
RoEM = Rule of Engagement modifier. For AoA (red stance) it's 1,35 for the attacker, 1,5 for the defender.

Darksky
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Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:31 am

Hi Narwal, i read about the assault combat phase in paradox forum. You write that in order to count the leader skill a compare of them is made. But in your report you say that the attacker Offensive skill is compared to the Defender..offensive skill. Is this a typo or do you confirm ? I thought that game engine compared the attacker offensive skill against the defender DEFENSIVE skill. :/

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Narwhal
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Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:20 am

Stoertebeker wrote:Yepp. Great findings and writeup, Narwhal!

Inspired by your work, I tested your findings with RoP. Everything seems fine. Except: The RoE only seems to have effect on assault, not on the fire phase (at least "all out attack" didn't influence hitchances in the first round). Maybe this is only a RoP-issue, though, but I wouldn't guess so.

Another little sidenote: an out-of-command penalty is multiplied by the stackleaders' tactical rating. If the leaderrating on one side is less than 1 (or 100%) due to ooc-penalties, this will raise the chance to hit for the other side. (Whereas it won't lower the chance to hit the enemy.)
I also found, that the cohesion malus seems to have very little influence on hitchances and kicks in quite late. A saxon element with 25/66 cohesion suffered no penalty when firing on my brave grenadiers. Again: Maybe this is RoP-special.


I will have to test that for AJE, I suppose, and I will update as needed. Thank you.
Pocus sent me the calculation for Cohesion damage, but it did not match. I could not test it again to send to Pocus, I will ASAP.


Darksky wrote:Hi Narwal, i read about the assault combat phase in paradox forum. You write that in order to count the leader skill a compare of them is made. But in your report you say that the attacker Offensive skill is compared to the Defender..offensive skill. Is this a typo or do you confirm ? I thought that game engine compared the attacker offensive skill against the defender DEFENSIVE skill. :/


It all depends of the posture of the stack, not whether the element is the hitter or the receiver in a given phase. If both forces are in OFFENSIVE posture, the OFFENSIVE skill of the leader will be used. If one stack is in DEFENSIVE posture, the DEFENSIVE skill is going to be used, even when the element is firing / actively attacking

Darksky
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Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:14 pm

Narwhal wrote:It all depends of the posture of the stack, not whether the element is the hitter or the receiver in a given phase. If both forces are in OFFENSIVE posture, the OFFENSIVE skill of the leader will be used. If one stack is in DEFENSIVE posture, the DEFENSIVE skill is going to be used, even when the element is firing / actively attacking


Ouch, i completely forgot the posture thing. Yep, this does make sense definitively.
Thanks a lot for your guides, i hope you will be the manual writer of the next AGEOD game ;)

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Stoertebeker
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Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:38 am

Stoertebeker wrote:The RoE only seems to have effect on assault, not on the fire phase (at least "all out attack" didn't influence hitchances in the first round). Maybe this is only a RoP-issue, though, but I wouldn't guess so.


It's not true, what I wrote. I double checked and everything works like Narwhal described: 1,35 for the attacker, 1,5 for the defender in both: fire phase and assault phase.

But I found out another thing: The rate-of-fire-thing works in another way than is commonly understood: when battle reaches a range, where a unit can fire, it will use its full RoF. By then, it only fires once per range. (I searched for element numbers in in the detailed battle log to find this out.)
In the second hour of the battle (which will start at range 1), the unit will again use its full RoF.

So an element which has a range of 3 and a RoF of 2 will shoot 2 times at range 3, 1 time at range 2, 1 time at range 1. In the second round (hour), it will fire 2 times at range 1.

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Narwhal
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Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:18 pm

Good catch, Stoertebeker

VigaBrand
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:57 pm

I have a question. What terrain count if I move over river? Example, I move over Minorriver in Hill region. Which terrain modifier will be use for calculate the battle?

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PhilThib
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:12 pm

The terrain of the region where the battle takes place. A river is not a region... this said, if you enter a region by crossing a minor river and the enemy is already here, you shall suffer on the first day of combat the penalties for crossing the river, in addition to the terrain own's features...so it may become very risky, especially when the enemy is already there (worst if he is entrenched!)
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VigaBrand
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:35 pm

I'm not sure what it means.
If I attack over river in a swamp, how does it works? How work the frontage in this case? Did everythink add each other?

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PhilThib
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:36 pm

No usually the river effects apply on the first day of battle and the other terrain effects the following day(s)
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VigaBrand
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Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:45 pm

@Narwahl: Are you sure with your declaration? In AACW I I found a file in which this is written.
Entry set 0 : for milicia infantry
Entry set 1 : for irregular infantry
Entry set 2 : for regular infantry
Entry set 3 : for cavalry units
Entry set 4 : for artillery and heavy units
Entry set 5 : for supplies and non fighting units
Entry set 6 : for ships
Are you sure with 0 and 2?

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JacquesDeLalaing
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Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:22 am

A question came to my mind that is not covered in this wonderfull post!
How do "opposing"-ROE-coefficients work? If my element attacks an opposing element, does it use both, its "own" and the opposing elements' "opposing" coefficient to determine its hitchances? And if so, how are these two coefficients mixed?

E.g. My element (ROE own 130%) attacks an element (ROE opposing 90%). What will the final ROE coefficient be? 1,3*0,9=1,17?

I will keep an eye on that in my next battle-logs. ;)

PS: A little offtopic: One thing that is covered nowhere and yet is of decisive importance (as it determines retreat-wills) is the strength/PWR formula. What factors are used to determine the PWR of a unit? Obviously TQ, fire rating, current/max hits/cohesion, etc. But the exact loading remains unknown.
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Narwhal
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Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:29 am

VigaBrand wrote:@Narwahl: Are you sure with your declaration? In AACW I I found a file in which this is written.
Entry set 0 : for milicia infantry
Entry set 1 : for irregular infantry
Entry set 2 : for regular infantry
Entry set 3 : for cavalry units
Entry set 4 : for artillery and heavy units
Entry set 5 : for supplies and non fighting units
Entry set 6 : for ships
Are you sure with 0 and 2?


Hello,

AACW is the only AGEOD games [with the latest NCP] that I don't have, so I can't confirm for AACW. :)

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Narwhal
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Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:31 am

JacquesDeLalaing wrote:A question came to my mind that is not covered in this wonderfull post!
How do "opposing"-ROE-coefficients work? If my element attacks an opposing element, does it use both, its "own" and the opposing elements' "opposing" coefficient to determine its hitchances? And if so, how are these two coefficients mixed?

E.g. My element (ROE own 130%) attacks an element (ROE opposing 90%). What will the final ROE coefficient be? 1,3*0,9=1,17?

That's my understanding. I would need to test and since my new job [3 years ago :) ] I have very very little personal time [time not requested by job or girlfriend :) ]

PS: A little offtopic: One thing that is covered nowhere and yet is of decisive importance (as it determines retreat-wills) is the strength/PWR formula. What factors are used to determine the PWR of a unit? Obviously TQ, fire rating, current/max hits/cohesion, etc. But the exact loading remains unknown.

I never checked honestly. The Phil would know, I assume ?

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JacquesDeLalaing
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Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:09 pm

Narwhal wrote:Hello,

AACW is the only AGEOD games [with the latest NCP] that I don't have, so I can't confirm for AACW. :)


In RoP, it's as Narwhal has stated. 0 = regular infantry, 2 = militia. Tested and approved. ;)
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