User avatar
arsan
Posts: 6244
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:35 pm
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: (BOR - Punic Wars) Roman Consuls Won't Fail Activation Rolls

Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:30 am

I played a great Second Punic war HAN PBEM game as Roman a couple years ago, and honestly, never noticed this issue. We didn't knew it existed.

I was Rome and I can assure you I didn't had an easy going at all... Playing against Hannibal is hell! ;)
The game was very balanced and tense.

Maybe you and your rival can think is some house rules or something... But in any case I don't think the bug gives a game breaking advantage. It seems to have been around for years and nobody noticed before...

Regards


Jaitoraken
Conscript
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:22 pm

Re: (BOR - Punic Wars) Roman Consuls Won't Fail Activation Rolls

Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:27 pm

How could I play with a home rule the second punic war with this error?

The truth is that I can not think of any home rule that is right. I had thought that the Roman player would roll a die or something like that every time he drove a consul, what do you think?

Thank you

User avatar
arsan
Posts: 6244
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:35 pm
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: (BOR - Punic Wars) Roman Consuls Won't Fail Activation Rolls

Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:19 pm

Yes, I was thinking of something like that. In fact I think it's how the game checks activation. Rolling D6 against the leader strategic rating (with some modifications I think).

It seems the bug happens only on admiral/general consul, not on all of them.
It has been a while since I played HAN... Not sure how many consuls are both admiral and general.

Regards!

User avatar
Nikel
Posts: 2368
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:38 pm

Re: (BOR - Punic Wars) Roman Consuls Won't Fail Activation Rolls

Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:40 pm

I guess the Carthaginians commanders should also be benefited by this issue, a good solution to equalise would be to remove the admiral capacity for those Consuls who had not a significant naval participation in history to match more or less the number of Carthaginians.

It requires some work and investigation.

A good time to release AJE databases, just in case there are people interested in modding.

User avatar
Straight Arrow
Brigadier General
Posts: 461
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:44 pm
Location: Washington State

Re: (BOR - Punic Wars) Roman Consuls Won't Fail Activation Rolls

Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:08 am

Nikel wrote:I guess the Carthaginians commanders should also be benefited by this issue, a good solution to equalise would be to remove the admiral capacity for those Consuls who had not a significant naval participation in history to match more or less the number of Carthaginians.

It requires some work and investigation.

A good time to release AJE databases, just in case there are people interested in modding.


I would hold off removing admiral capacity for Consuls who had not a significant naval participation in history, due to the fact, well I'll let Dexter Hoyos comments from Hannibal’s Dynasty explain why.

“Carthaginians, the quondam se power came close to overthrowing the Roman republic - long dominant in land warfare- through war on land.”

“Romans, comparatively new to naval warfare, outclassed the veteran mistress of the sea on the water from start to finish.”

He goes on to point out that the Barcids and Carthage produced some excellent generals, but nothing to speak of as admirals in the 2nd Punic war.

User avatar
arsan
Posts: 6244
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:35 pm
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: (BOR - Punic Wars) Roman Consuls Won't Fail Activation Rolls

Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:41 am

If i recall correctly not all the roman consuls are both admirals and generals. I think only the ones that acted as admirals historically.
But it has been a while since I played it...
On the Second Punic war scenario Romans rule the sea indeed , but not because of its admirals but for their quinquerremes that outclass the cartaghinians by far.

Regards!

User avatar
Nikel
Posts: 2368
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:38 pm

Re: (BOR - Punic Wars) Roman Consuls Won't Fail Activation Rolls

Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:53 pm

I understand that the problem is that there are many (all?) on the Consuls within the double General/Admiral category, and this gives the roman side an advantage because of the activation.

The exploits of the roman navy vs Carthage were not because their commanders were always "active", this is gamey or buggy.

But because a conjunction of factors, in the game can be represented by abilities of the commanders, ships, troops, resources...

For example, just load the -219 scenario, both Consuls (L. Aemilius Paullus and M. Livius Salinator) have the double category, and why? It is true they defeated the Illyrians, but in land battles.

They were Consuls a second time in different years of the second punic war, and again participated in land battles.

So why are they Admirals, because they commanded a fleet to arrive to Illyria?

Anyway the game is as is, unless a modder appears :siffle:

Baris
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1895
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:50 pm

Re: (BOR - Punic Wars) Roman Consuls Won't Fail Activation Rolls

Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:06 pm

I think I've read before there is no advantage in sea battles whether commander is active or not.

In both Punic Wars sea battles can be very devastating for Carthage. It can be historical (don't know for sure). But in general for all games sea battles needs a bit improvement. It was also very devastating in WOS.

User avatar
Straight Arrow
Brigadier General
Posts: 461
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:44 pm
Location: Washington State

Re: (BOR - Punic Wars) Roman Consuls Won't Fail Activation Rolls

Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:08 am

arsan wrote:If i recall correctly not all the roman consuls are both admirals and generals. I think only the ones that acted as admirals historically.
But it has been a while since I played it...
On the Second Punic war scenario Romans rule the sea indeed , but not because of its admirals but for their quinquerremes that outclass the cartaghinians by far.

Regards!



Ah, but why did the Roman quinquerremes outclass the Carthaginians quinquerremes?

According to Polybius, didn’t Rome use a stranded Carthaginian quinquerreme as a model for the first real fleet they built? Even if this claim is only a legend, both sides must of had ships that were extremely similar for it to be believable.

Other than the corvus how did the ships physically differ? I can’t find any sources that say they did.

If we discount the corvus and the ships were the same, the difference in performance between the two sides must be found in the quality of the crew, captains and overall leadership, not in the quinquerremes themselves.

User avatar
arsan
Posts: 6244
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:35 pm
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: (BOR - Punic Wars) Roman Consuls Won't Fail Activation Rolls

Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:23 pm

In game, the roman quinqurremes have Corvus, and are much stronger than the standard carthaginian quinquerremes.
I'm not an expert, and not sure if this corvus thing was still in used by romans on the second Punic War.
For what i read was used on the first punic war as a way of neutralize the better quality of cartaginian crews, using boarding and hand to hand combat instead of ramming.
In any case in game the roman quinquerremes with corvus rule the seas, nearly as overwhemlingly as Hannibal abilities rule the land. Maybe it's not 100% historic, buy it works good in game, giving the romans some chance.

Regards!

Baris
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1895
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:50 pm

Re: (BOR - Punic Wars) Roman Consuls Won't Fail Activation Rolls

Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:39 pm

Historical thing aside (I have no knowledge), part of the problem in sea battles were intercept order. It did make stronger side in navy way more stronger. I advise for a house rule not to use this order. If there is exploit in activation rolls for admiral&naval leaders then no activation rule in pbem can be temporary solution. :siffle:

User avatar
arsan
Posts: 6244
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:35 pm
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: (BOR - Punic Wars) Roman Consuls Won't Fail Activation Rolls

Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:56 pm

I agree completely with Bari's. Naval interception order is a problem.
It not only makes interception too easy, but it works even with fleets on defensive posture, something I think is a bug.

I will recomend a house rule to not use it or at least use it only with fleets in offensive posture.

Regards!

User avatar
Khanti
Captain
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:06 pm
Location: Poland

Re: (BOR - Punic Wars) Roman Consuls Won't Fail Activation Rolls

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:17 pm

Nikel wrote:I understand that the problem is that there are many (all?) on the Consuls within the double General/Admiral category, and this gives the roman side an advantage because of the activation.

The exploits of the roman navy vs Carthage were not because their commanders were always "active", this is gamey or buggy.

But because a conjunction of factors, in the game can be represented by abilities of the commanders, ships, troops, resources...

For example, just load the -219 scenario, both Consuls (L. Aemilius Paullus and M. Livius Salinator) have the double category, and why? It is true they defeated the Illyrians, but in land battles.

They were Consuls a second time in different years of the second punic war, and again participated in land battles.

So why are they Admirals, because they commanded a fleet to arrive to Illyria?

Anyway the game is as is, unless a modder appears :siffle:


Removing the line "NavalLeader = 1" is not a big deal. The real question is: will it solve the problem without making another (leaderless Roman fleets perhaps) ?
And should all Consuls be considered for removal (1009ROMLucius Licinius Lucullus.mdl too) ?
Meteoryt-like user. Strikes and disappears.

Return to “Alea Jacta Est”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests