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andatiep
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Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:13 pm

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:I'd say, in two particular points: first one is winter 1918 - 1919, when Denikin removes Krasnov using his cooperation with the Germans and his support for an autonomous Don state to accuse him of "selling Russia to the Germans".

And the second one is when Wrangel gathers enough support among the high-ranking officers to openly contest Denikin's powers. Historically it was in late 1919. Without Denikin knowing Wrangel prepared a general meeting of commanders in Rostov planned on 17th december, but Denikin found out and directly forbid them to gather. He also outmanuevered Wrangel by making him the commander of Volunteer Army instead of Maj-Maevski (but not the commander of Southern White army!), a very smart move that left Wrangel with his hands completely tied.
In game terms this should probably be dynamic: it was the loud Tsaritsin victory that allowed Wrangel to become prominent enough, and then he was put in charge of relatively quiet front, and, what is more important, denied enough men and supplies to achieve another one.

I think, we should discuss these two points separately and very closely.


Well, let's say only the first point. The second point is like the Kolchak point : it's too late for many reasons. And it is anyway already simply and well simulated in the game (when the South White NM is very low, then Wrangel can win its political struggle against Denikin).


Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:First of all, Krasnov: no. Definitely and absolutely no. Krasnov was a mortal enemy of leftist parties, SR in particular. He once said "I have four enemies: intelligentsia, putting party interests above Russian interests, — my most dangerous enemy; general Denikin; foreigners - Germans and Allies; Bolsheviks. And the latter I fear least of all, because I fight them openly, and they don't try to disguise as my friends."


Interesting. So Krasnov would be for an autocratic government like Kolchak which would, at the best, lead to no cooperation with a Komuch still holding Volga theater (so no serious Independences recognition because Whites conserve military leaders in the South and in the North would not apply it). And, if the Komuch is later expelled South instead of Siberia, we would had somethink like the Directory and a Krasnov Coup in South Russia instead of Siberia (so no Independences recognition at all)...



Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:Wrangel... I don't think so either. True, Wrangel was more politically able than any other white leader, but he was right-wing. Also, old nobility, and openly monarchist. Not a pal for the SR. Let's say, Wrangel, afrer taking power, could be willing to ally with the SR - invite them to the government, etc., but SR in power would probably send Wrangel to Serbia even faster than Denikin.


I won't be so sure. Look : "Kappel commanded the Komuch People's Army. Declaring himself as a monarchist, Kappel however said he would fight under any banner against Bolsheviks".
Komuch had so fiew "liberal" generals, that it had to recruit most of its military among conservative generals even at the High command. This explain also why the Kolchak Coup was not opposed by the Komuch People's Army main commanders.

Maybe Krasnov would walk sometimes with the Komuch, if the Komuch is the next Russian Governement which warranty him a Don political autonomy (so concretely, a little territory where he can still be an autocrat...).

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:But! I see a third way here.
Denikin's excuse for not doing anything political was "we're not a legitimate government". Now, if Komuch evacuates to the South, he gets his legitimate governmet! Kadets who are already there plus SR and Mensheviks from Komuch - that's a perfect representation of the Constitutent assembly. Even same people, mostly.


We could maybe suppose that Denikin would obey the Komuch but only if it is no weak, so if its Volga basis is not Red controlled, and if it is supported by the Western Allies.

But we still have to know if the Komuch really planed a federative State and would allow the independences abroad.


Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:1) Krasnov wins. An independent Don State becomes the main force fighting Bolshevism. Easy alliances, the recignition problem doesn't even present itself, very limited allied support, Don functions as good as any other normal state - good economy, regular recruitment, fully working civil administration. Also, leftist unrest and no alliance with Siberia until Kolchak coup.

2) Wrangel wins. Occupied territories get a pretty decent civil administration. Recognition of independencies theoretically possible. Cossacks are treated ok enough to continue fighting.

3) Denikin gets Komuch and stays in power. Again, liberated lands are working better, and the government gets much more public support (SR are popular and are very good at propaganda), but no independencies (SR support them, but more numerous kadets, led by all-poweful Denikin, do not).


This pretty much sums up all options Southern Whites had. What do you think?



I think it exist a last "option" : the "addition" of all 3 generals...

If the Komuch is still alived and backed by the Western power in early 1919, it is then the contemporay arbiter of the quarrels between the 3 generals... and it is then much more easy to slow down the arguments and maybe keep them all or 2 of them.


Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:Ooof. Can I have my slivovica now?


Yes.
Definitly.
You're welcomed anytimes in the western Alps to taste our eau-de-vie :thumbsup: !
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TheDoctorKing
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Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:57 am

I've been playing a bit as the Southern Whites. They are really in trouble if they can't do Reforms. They will never be able to raise new units for their Archangel or Pskov fronts. Maybe the events that create those armies could also increase the population loyalty in those cities to 40% or whatever the minimum is to be able to build a unit.

In my game I can't build units in Novorossysk either and because of the special missions in capital cities bug I can't do reforms there to improve matters. Annoying!
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"There is no substitute for victory"

Depends on how you define victory.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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andatiep
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Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:26 am

TheDoctorKing wrote:I've been playing a bit as the Southern Whites. They are really in trouble if they can't do Reforms. They will never be able to raise new units for their Archangel or Pskov fronts. Maybe the events that create those armies could also increase the population loyalty in those cities to 40% or whatever the minimum is to be able to build a unit.

In my game I can't build units in Novorossysk either and because of the special missions in capital cities bug I can't do reforms there to improve matters. Annoying!


Yes... now that you say it, it remind me some troubles like this... :(

I think i will change the mini-MOD about and let at least one Reform Regional Decision to the South White at the begining to avoid this kind of problems during the game.

NB : About Pskov, with the Mini-MOD about the Baltic States : "The North-West White army should not appear at all if the Baltic States didn't join the Whites or if the Reds didn't declared war to the Baltic States." So you won't need to have good loyalty in Pskov since you would be allowed to build in the unblocked Baltic States areas.


EDIT : Maybe we had already the solution : if the White Guards milicias and Cavalry Cossacks have an ability which warranty gradually a minimum of 25% loyalty (but with a maximum of 50%), then you just have to place for sometimes this units in the regions were you want to produce...
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ERISS
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Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:32 pm

Mini-MOD "Lenin Assassination"
Lenin assassination event is not a scientific fact: it could not happen if the Left SR rebellion did not happen,

You make it a 'scientific' fact. Somebody-else could have attempt.
Even, maybe actually someone else tried but not even succeded in injuring Lenin, so the bolsheviks said nothing about this attempt (if they ever wanted to say something, they had to provoke a false attempt if needed).
So, I'll let 10 or 15% of assassination, if SR rebellion does not occure. They were not the sole enemy of Lenin.

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Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:49 pm

Interesting. So Krasnov would be for an autocratic government like Kolchak which would, at the best, lead to no cooperation with a Komuch still holding Volga theater (so no serious Independences recognition because Whites conserve military leaders in the South and in the North would not apply it). And, if the Komuch is later expelled South instead of Siberia, we would had somethink like the Directory and a Krasnov Coup in South Russia instead of Siberia (so no Independences recognition at all)...


Not quite. You see, the main question was "do Southern Whites, as a russian-wide anti-bolshevik movenment, have a right to sanction secessions?"
Now, Krasnov, leading Don Republic, wouldn't have to face this question at all. He cannot sanction or guarantee anything at all, so it's not his problem, not his headace. He's just a leader of another independant state at war with Bolsheviks, an instant natural ally of Ukranians, Poles and Finns. In fact, first thing he did in power was securing alliance with Ukraine. He was not an autocrat, also. Don was a complete democracy - elected Krug, elected Ataman. Far right and democratic, yes. Russian political spectre was a total mess back then.
Well, it still is: we have autocrats posing as liberal centrists, official liberal democrats that are actually totally batshit nazis and official nazis that are in fact moderate social-democrats. Oh, and hardcore communists started drawing icons of Holy Ortodox Tzar Stalin recently. :D

Kappel commanded the Komuch People's Army. Declaring himself as a monarchist, Kappel however said he would fight under any banner against Bolsheviks


True, but there was no shortage of liberal generals in the South. Alekseev, Denkin, other pervoprohodniki - all these people were Kadets, actively supported February Revolution and fought for the cause of SR-dominated Constitutend Assembly. As if it was not enough, Kornilov himself was THE bloody red blasphemer that arrested the holy Tzar and his family. :) So, KOMUCH would be welcomed with open arms in the Denikin's South. If KOMUCH had survived, Denikin would have acknowleged it's responsibility as a legitimate Russian goverment in no time. If KOMUCH had evacuated to the South, Denikin would have probably integrate it into his own Kadet government

So, naturally, it's even more complicated.
Here is what I propose: I have plenty of sources at hand, but they are all Russian (what I don't quite understand - you'd think that Russian diaspora in Paris would have at least the most important books translated into French by now - I mean, seriously, no attempts to translate anything since 1922?)
So, maybe I'll start a separate thread for sources on Krasnov, Denikin and Wrangel, selecting and translating passages that I think are most important for understanding the mindset of said generals? Or separate threads for each one of them, since I'm a structuring maniac :D Too much text to put it all here, we'll simply drown in it.
I' d start with Krasnov and his diaries. That is, if you need it, of course.

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andatiep
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Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:37 am

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:So, maybe I'll start a separate thread for sources on Krasnov, Denikin and Wrangel, selecting and translating passages that I think are most important for understanding the mindset of said generals? Or separate threads for each one of them, since I'm a structuring maniac :D Too much text to put it all here, we'll simply drown in it.
I' d start with Krasnov and his diaries. That is, if you need it, of course.


Very Nice !

I suggest that you post all in the RUS History Club sub-forum (http://www.ageod-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=284) because it desearve to be placed their for better audience and classification (but maybe with a link to the last posts of this thread so that the History Club readers see also this discussion (including the post about the telegrams, etc.)

So finally, for the Mini-MODs alternate History you would suggest that if the Komuch can survive and/or move South, all 3 Krasnov, Wrangel & Denikin would stay and fight and that whatever it is Krasnov or Denikin which would be named CiC, he would apply the "liberal" reforms and diplomacy from the Komuch government/parliament ?

But it still need to have some confirmation that the Constitutionnal Assembly (so in fact, at this stage, only the remaining Right SR and the Kadets and "liberals") would have recognize the independences...
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andatiep
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Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:45 am

ERISS wrote:You make it a 'scientific' fact. Somebody-else could have attempt.
Even, maybe actually someone else tried but not even succeded in injuring Lenin, so the bolsheviks said nothing about this attempt (if they wanted to say something, they had to make a false attempt if needed).
So, I'll let 10 or 15% of assassination, if SR rebellion does not occure. They were not the sole enemy of Lenin.


You're right ! And i had also this idea to set a 10% chance of assassination for Lenin all along the game.

Left SR rebellion increased a lot the probability, but there were already the repression against the anarchist since spring 1918 which already set a starting probability :neener: .

But, i'm too lasy to MOD it and interact with the other events for now :D ...
I will put it in the TODO list...
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andatiep
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Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:17 pm

[Info-post]

The mini-MODs installation pack is now updated for the patch 1.03a :cthulhu:

You can install it by :

1) erasing the file .../RUS/GameData/Models/Models.cached and the file .../RUS/GameData/Units/Units.cached

2) downloading this file, unzip it and copy/paste it in your .../Revolution under Siege/ repository (copy over the original files) :

Mini-MODs for RUS - patch 1.03a : RUS.zip


NB:
- This current pack is a DoctorKing & Andatiep selection from the wiki page)
- this mini-MODs are mostly designed for PBEM games. :leprechau
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ERISS
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:54 pm

I discovered this by looking at the Recent changes of the wiki:
http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Davai_MOD
Is that the Mini-MODs version for 1.04?
However, thanks for your work.

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ERISS
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Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:27 pm

A thread about DAVAI is missing, I prefer that you do open it, Andatiep.

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