TheDoctorKing wrote:Andatiep, could you list the options we are using?
TheDoctorKing wrote:Another minor suggestion:
Small supply units. If you are trying to gain military control over the countryside (required if the countryside is going to produce most of the GS) then you need supply units by the score to keep the small rural garrison forces from starving. I would like to see each side have 1-element supply units.
TheDoctorKing wrote:The Siberian Railway areas (by area number, from east to west):
TheDoctorKing wrote:I'd still like to have single-element supply units. If you want to maintain military control of the countryside you have to have garrisons outside the towns. They will need small supply units to keep them from starving.
TheDoctorKing wrote:I would add the Red leaders A.V. Lunacharsky and Dmitry Manuilsky with the Propagandist characteristic. I would also give Makhno the advantage and add an Anarchist leader, Emma Goldman, with the advantage. Lunacharsky, Manuilsky, and Goldman could be 1-0-0 military leaders. If we are going to make the Anarchists a faction of the Reds, this would make it much more worthwhile to keep them around. And Lenin should be converted to a regular 3-star leader. If possible, I'd like to have him unlocked, too, and penalize the Reds 1 VP (or maybe 1 EP?) each turn he doesn't end in the Red capital.
TheDoctorKing wrote:And we should double the value of requisition and recruitment missions over what they have from vanilla, unless we can figure out a way to make their take correspond to the value of the province. Any ideas? The only thing I can think of is to have different missions for each province, so if you select requisitions in Tver, you are triggering the "requisitions Tver" mission that produces so many roubles and WS in proportion to the industrial capacity of Tver. This would be a lot of work but would make the "special missions" function much more realistically. It is odd now that requisitions in outer Siberia somewhere produce the same as requisitions in Moscow.
andatiep wrote:To maintain military control of the country side for economic purpose is useless for now. Only the control of the little towns (which all produce 20 GS).
TheDoctorKing wrote:Doesn't lack of military control in the countryside make it impossible to carry out some missions there?
If not, it should.
Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:1) Krasnov as a Southern White supreme leader seems wrong to me. He was a cossack general, a strong advocate of independent cossack state. I'm not even sure he'd support a march to Moscow. Also, he was very pro-german, an this was the main reason Denikin managed to force him into retirement after germans left the Ukraine.
Rasputin's Own Bear wrote: Cossack army and Volunteer army kind of existed separately from the start. So, if you really want to model the role of Krasnov, the reasonable way to do this would be to make the player choose between Krasnov (cossacks gain the upper hand in the southern white movement, Volunteer army becomes part of Don Army) and Denikin (what happend historically - Krasnov is forced to leave, without a strong leader cossacks become part of Denikin army).
Anyway, it shouldn't be Denikin after Krasnov, it should be either Krasnov and cossacks or Denikin and volunteers.
Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:2) Kolchak's role in all this. I may be wrong, but as far as I know, his title as a Supreme Ruler was purely nominal. Denikin recognised him as one in hope to raise the morals, give the impression of a huge unified front, etc., but he had no actual control over situation in the South. So, Kolchak preventing Wrangel from becoming the high commander is a bit strange. Actually, he might have supported him - both Kolchak and Wrangel enjoyed the special attention of UK government, which at the same time found Denikin too independant and unpredictable.
Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:3) Wrangel. In my opinion, theire should be no problem with making Wrangel the high commander from the start except huge cost in EP and maybe NM (representing intrigue and quarrels in Stavka, problems with bruised ego of the "pervoprohodniki", "pioneers" who started the the movenment and were in the Ice March) and appropriate seniority (some loud victories to win the hearts of the public and the frontline troops). Wrangel should be something like recognition of independancies in vanilla - a very expensive option promising great benefits in future.
Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:The country was generally lawless and the peasants easily obeyed whatever administration cared to send a dozen of armed men their way. And even that wasn't always necessary: quite often it was enough to meet the head of the village to initiate cooperation - well, for the whites in the south, at least. Anyway, the peasants did most of the job for themselves.
E.g, reds come - the poor villagers establish a soviet an start solving the kulak problem, whites come - the richer peasants gain the upper hand and maintain order. It was all very grassroots.
but who ordered to Yudenitch to not negociate the recognition of the Finnish independence, saving Petrograd from beiing Whites in 1919.
Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:
I'm also very eager to discuss other point, especially the Cossacks and their mythology, but the post is big enough already. Maybe we could focus on Kolchak for now and leave Cossacks for later?
Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:Oh, and this is quite interesting. Here is a secret instuctional telegram sent to Denikin by Kolchak.
"To gen. Denikin, Ekaterinodar. Armed conflict with Petlura's troops may result in dire consequences. I share you concern with certain areas to grab sovereignity and with federative tendencies. But, in given circumstances, I consider hostility and discontent much more dangerous. Any delay in fighting the bolsheviks treats to bring utter destruction to the state. One grave danger makes smaller ones insignificant. This is why I will gladly tolerate recognition of Baltic states independence by Yudenich. I also will, if needed, allow temporary Ukranian independence and recognise eastern Polish border as a legitimate one, in the name of coordinating and unifying Ukranian, Polish and all the rest anti-bolshevik powers. The Gathering of Russian Lands is not a matter of month, and I view the fracturing of the Empire as an inevitable evil. This evil will stop by itself, as soon as peace will come, and the lost parts will gravitate towars strong central authority, one being the only way for the population to get much-desired security and prosperity. I'd also like to note that I'm ready to allow, but not encourage named tendencies. Kolchak.
Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:[...]
"Unfortunately, I'm not able to publicly announce the recognition of Finnish independance."
He was not able indeed - the SR would have probably used it as an excuse to start an uprising.
Finns agreed, but on 28th Yudenich's army was in full retreat already.
So, as you see, Kolchak was not a stern imperialist, and didn't even share Deikin "United and Undivided" illusion.
Spasiba Babayaga's own beard !
which clearly show that he refused to take the political responsabilities for this, although he is the (self)proclamed supreme leader of the White cause
it could show very well why the Fins and the Balts couldn't trust the conservative Whites leaders
Do you have more informations about the SR or Komuch official political programs ?
As said above, i really doubt that the possible few remaining clandestine SR in Siberia would be a menace for Koltchak
Before going on in this topic, i want to make clear that i'm looking for what could be the most realistic conditions which could lead to an alternate history were the Whites would recognize the independences abroad and some political autonomies inside which could bring to the Whites such needed new allies.
Do you have any other interesting documents, which could show the state of mind of Krasnov and Wrangel ? Or any White leaders who could have performed an other diplomacy, if in power?
Rasputin's Own Bear wrote: Wrangel speech in Crimea:
" we sacrificed strategy in the name of politics, and could not do any politics at all.
, as a result of proclaiming United and Undivided Russia, we separated all anti-bolshevik powers from each other and broke Russia into small warring states."
"I know not monarchists or republicans, only people of work and knowlege",
and "Against the bolsheviks I'd go even with the Devil himself."
So the key for alternate history would be before the Kolchak Coup and not in Siberia but in South Russia.
Do you think that if the Komuch provisionnal government/parliament in the Volga sector would have a territorial connexion with South Russia (and then also, a possible other evacuation way instead of Siberia), via Saratov & Tsaritsin, and if Janin, still as nominated Allied High command inn Russia (so then together with the British), was following and supporting the Komuch, then Denikin would have more chance to loose the internal political fight against Krasnov and other "liberal" officer (like Wrangel)?
...but Denikin always did as if he already won the war: He divided every others but the Reds (as if they didn't exist)...
Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:3) Denikin gets Komuch and stays in power. Again, liberated lands are working better, and the government gets much more public support (SR are popular and are very good at propaganda), but no independencies (SR support them, but more numerous kadets, led by all-poweful Denikin, do not).
SR lost their huge popularity when they governed (or so) before the bolshevik coup, that's why nobody protected them against bolsheviks.
Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:The one and only reason for the October coup was Bolsheviks having been steamrolled by the SR in the Constitutent Assembly elections.
Mind that everybody but Bolsheviks would probably block with SR once in government and you'll see that it was an absolute disaster for Lenin and comrades.
ERISS wrote:Yes, but you talk about popularity. Popularity is what could have protect the government from a coup. People had weapons, and easily could have kill all bolsheviks and put back the SR government, but almost nobody care... Popularity = nobody care? Voting for a government is not showing popularity, it is choosing the masters. Masters are not often popular.
Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:Bolsheviks a lot of armed people voted for them
Mini-MOD "Nationalities geographical & economical limitations"
National limited ranges :
- ANA troops will loose 50% cohesion if in Bielorussia, Central Russia & South Russia theaters, and 95% if they go even further.
ERISS wrote:Loose nothing in North (at least Petrograd gubernia):
. think about Kronstadt
Loose nothing in Central Russia:
. red player exploit by putting all ukr ANA there to better betrayal them (bigger exploit than using them to protect Moscow), and historically, some red regiments became ana even in this theater (arround Orel), and went south joining Makhnov to not stand alone
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