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andatiep
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RUS wishlist Mini-MODs thread

Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:47 am

I open this thread so that the volunteers who want to participate to a RUS wishlist Mini-MODs workshop can debate here about what to write there : http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/A_RUS_wishlist_mini-MODs_workshop

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There is currently a PBEM with AARs which use most of the mini-MODs. You can check and download it here : http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=20530
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TheDoctorKing
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Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:30 pm

As we play our test game, let's post AARs here.

Andatiep, could you list the options we are using?
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Depends on how you define victory.

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andatiep
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Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:33 pm

TheDoctorKing wrote:Andatiep, could you list the options we are using?


Here, could be this :


# 1 Mini-MOD "The Komuch"
# 2 Mini-MOD "The Koltchak Coup"
# 3 Mini-MOD "Role of Wrangel"
# 4 Mini-MOD "Role of Janin"
# 6 Mini-MOD "RCW War Productions"
* 6.1 Ruling the country side
* 6.2 WS & Ammunition production
# 7 Mini-MOD "Reds & Green insurrections" (work-in-progres !!!!)
# 8 Mini-MOD "Massive desertions" (work-in-progres !!!!)

# 11 Mini-MOD "New Armored Trains"
# 13 Mini-MOD "Keep the Transiberian railroad" (work-in-progres !!!!)

# 15 Mini-MOD "Political struggles" (unfinished but usable)
# 16 Mini-MOD "Whites' territorial unification"

# 17 Mini-MOD "Foreign Interventions' Conditions" (work-in-progres !!!!)
* 17.3 Foreign SubFactions area limits (unfinished but can be House Rules)

# 19.2 "Poland in the RCW" (unfinished but can be added later)
# 19.3 "Anarchists in the RCW" (unfinished but can be added later)

# 20.2 Early Tankwarfare
# 20.3 Early Aircraftwarfare
# 20.4 Reserve system (March to the sound of the guns)



- For the # 13, you can help us if you load a game, then note the name of all the regions
with railroad between Omsk & Vladivostok and send it to me
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Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:01 pm

Another minor suggestion:

Small supply units. If you are trying to gain military control over the countryside (required if the countryside is going to produce most of the GS) then you need supply units by the score to keep the small rural garrison forces from starving. I would like to see each side have 1-element supply units.

The Siberian Railway areas (by area number, from east to west):

1512
1511
1509
1507
1506
1504
1502
1500
1497
1496
1494
1703
1690
1684
1682
1683
1464
1462
1461
1460
1459
1458
1457
1456
1451
1450
1448
1455
1449
1426
1429
1430
1422
1420
1419
0007
0006
1700
1699
1698
1325
1320

and for the Manchurian branch

1531
1658
1657
1701
1688
1687
1686
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"There is no substitute for victory"



Depends on how you define victory.



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Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:39 pm

TheDoctorKing wrote:Another minor suggestion:
Small supply units. If you are trying to gain military control over the countryside (required if the countryside is going to produce most of the GS) then you need supply units by the score to keep the small rural garrison forces from starving. I would like to see each side have 1-element supply units.


''- Since there is still no special basic GS production structure in AGE to simulate food production outside the towns, a simple way to reduce the enormous and absurd food production of the big towns and the low production of the little towns spread in the country side, is to change the production of all the regions with a city in the game to 20 G.Supply per turn. ''

This is the only thing i can do. Creating this new "farm" structures and spread them in the country side regions is really a big job to MOD...

So all the towns will only produce the same 20 GS to give more importance to the little towns all around in the country side (and thus, to the country side itself). Little garrison will then not have problems to supply.

You can have a look, i finished this :
# 7 Mini-MOD "Reds & Green insurrections"
# 8 Mini-MOD "Massive desertions"


TheDoctorKing wrote:The Siberian Railway areas (by area number, from east to west):
1512
1511
1509

:( i'm sorry i maybe was not clear : i need the fullname list like this :

$Omsk
$Tomsk
...
$Vladivostok

:bonk:


When i will finish the last Mini-MOD i planed before we start our PBEM (# 17 Mini-MOD "Foreign Interventions' Conditions", BTW, many stuff there could be House Rules, so we don't have to wait a full working MOD...) i can have a look on your wish to give propaganda abilities to some leaders (maybe you could start a list from your researches).
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Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:20 pm

I'd still like to have single-element supply units. If you want to maintain military control of the countryside you have to have garrisons outside the towns. They will need small supply units to keep them from starving.

I would add the Red leaders A.V. Lunacharsky and Dmitry Manuilsky with the Propagandist characteristic. I would also give Makhno the advantage and add an Anarchist leader, Emma Goldman, with the advantage. Lunacharsky, Manuilsky, and Goldman could be 1-0-0 military leaders. If we are going to make the Anarchists a faction of the Reds, this would make it much more worthwhile to keep them around. And Lenin should be converted to a regular 3-star leader. If possible, I'd like to have him unlocked, too, and penalize the Reds 1 VP (or maybe 1 EP?) each turn he doesn't end in the Red capital.

And we should double the value of requisition and recruitment missions over what they have from vanilla, unless we can figure out a way to make their take correspond to the value of the province. Any ideas? The only thing I can think of is to have different missions for each province, so if you select requisitions in Tver, you are triggering the "requisitions Tver" mission that produces so many roubles and WS in proportion to the industrial capacity of Tver. This would be a lot of work but would make the "special missions" function much more realistically. It is odd now that requisitions in outer Siberia somewhere produce the same as requisitions in Moscow.
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Depends on how you define victory.



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Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:00 pm

TheDoctorKing wrote:I'd still like to have single-element supply units. If you want to maintain military control of the countryside you have to have garrisons outside the towns. They will need small supply units to keep them from starving.



To maintain military control of the country side for economic purpose is useless for now. Only the control of the little towns (which all produce 20 GS). For standard units, you can always buy chip current supply units if you need to keep units outside regions with town.
Besides this, the green and black will get special "hidden" chariots (see the workshops : # 7 Mini-MOD "Reds & Green insurrections"# 19.3 "Anarchists in the RCW")


TheDoctorKing wrote:I would add the Red leaders A.V. Lunacharsky and Dmitry Manuilsky with the Propagandist characteristic. I would also give Makhno the advantage and add an Anarchist leader, Emma Goldman, with the advantage. Lunacharsky, Manuilsky, and Goldman could be 1-0-0 military leaders. If we are going to make the Anarchists a faction of the Reds, this would make it much more worthwhile to keep them around. And Lenin should be converted to a regular 3-star leader. If possible, I'd like to have him unlocked, too, and penalize the Reds 1 VP (or maybe 1 EP?) each turn he doesn't end in the Red capital.

OK. But creating new leader needs much more time.
Actually, 1-0-0 stat' would fit to Lenin too....
Better do not unlock Lenin, there is already an interesting system of events which make move in an another town the supreme leader if there is to much enemy units around its town.
This system is currently rarely working because it require more than 100 enemy units around the towns were Lenin (or Koltchak) is, but i propose to set the value to 50-60 units, it should works better.

TheDoctorKing wrote:And we should double the value of requisition and recruitment missions over what they have from vanilla, unless we can figure out a way to make their take correspond to the value of the province. Any ideas? The only thing I can think of is to have different missions for each province, so if you select requisitions in Tver, you are triggering the "requisitions Tver" mission that produces so many roubles and WS in proportion to the industrial capacity of Tver. This would be a lot of work but would make the "special missions" function much more realistically. It is odd now that requisitions in outer Siberia somewhere produce the same as requisitions in Moscow.


That would be a huge work...
By the way, look at the last concept about Regional Decisions & loyalty in the workshop # 14 Mini-MOD "Regional Decisions" (i also increased the number of conscript like you wanted, we will test the balance anyway in our PBEM).
About your idea, maybe a more simple solution would be to create a type of regional decision for a type of Area.
E.g. An agricultural area will get instead of the current Conscription & Requisition RGD only a single RGD which bring conscript, few Money and almost no WS. An area with big towns will bring conscripts, many Money and many WS.
Remember that more than 80% of the population was peasants (so were the soldiers too), so in terms of conscripts, there were not a big difference beetween areas with big towns and areas with few towns (i even read that the Bolcheviks wanted to keep if possible the urban workers in towns, so the proportion of urban conscripts was even far less than their proportion of the population). I think the only areas which should bring less conscript because of less population density would be the Central Asian, Siberian and Far eastern areas (but at least for this last one, i found a good reason to cancel the use of RGD there : see the workshop # 12 Mini-MOD "The Transbaikal Japanese puppet state" ).
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Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:04 am

andatiep wrote:To maintain military control of the country side for economic purpose is useless for now. Only the control of the little towns (which all produce 20 GS).


Doesn't lack of military control in the countryside make it impossible to carry out some missions there?

If not, it should.
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Depends on how you define victory.



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Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:03 am

TheDoctorKing wrote:Doesn't lack of military control in the countryside make it impossible to carry out some missions there?

If not, it should.


It's not very clear in the Manual, but as far as i know, to perform a Regional Decision, you just need to control (51% Military Control) of ...the main city of the area, even if you're surrounded by enemy territories.

I know it's somehow absurd, but it's like that and don't think we are able to MOD it at our level.
I guess it should be hard to code a stuff like "you can manage the area if you get 51% MC of 2/3 of the regions of the area..."

That's why i was thinking for now to introduce loyalty in some RGD because even if it concern de facto the loyalty % only in the main area city, the loyalty around is often the same, so it's more coherent.
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Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:58 pm

andatiep, je pensais t'envoyer ça par mail, comme c'est en français
About http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/A_RUS_wishlist_mini-MODs_workshop (good work!):
----------------------------
Verts Russie Centrale?
"- TODO : Central Russia Theater was always more afraid from the Whites than from the Reds, so the green revolts there can only happen if there is no more Whites in all the areas around this theater. E.g. The Tambov revolt peasants historically did waited that the reactionary whites be defeated to revolt against the Bolcheviks, so it can't happen if the Whites are still in Russian inlands !!! "

Ou plutôt les Verts ne voulaient pas se mêler aux Blancs, et ont attendu la défaite d'un des deux camps pour s'opposer au vainqueur?

----------------------------
Tcheka et VOKhR:
"- Only the political Options "Party Members join the Army" should increase the Political Commissar, the VOKhR and the Cheka line units in the units' pool (see Mini-MOD "Political struggles"). This elite units should be much more rare than the previously 30+ immediately available. The events which warn the player that there is new Cheka and VOKhR units (evt_nam_RED_ChekaCombatUnits & evt_nam_RED_VOKhRCreation) should happen in the same time like the political Options "Party Members join the Army" (start of the game), but it just bring 1 prototype unit of each (nothing in the Unit pool). "

. Commissaires Politiques: Pas d'avis.
. Tchéka: A la création se sont des espèces de "Red Judge Dread" (I am the Proletarian Law!), des commissaires aux pleins-pouvoirs, des supers-flics. Mais comme ils étaient reconnus par la troupe (améliorent grandement le moral, la cohésion, le ravitaillement et les chances de remplacements, et plus si affinité), finalement c'est une raison pour laquelle le Parti a militarisé la Tchéka. Ces commissaires tchékistes devraient être tous donnés au joueur sur 1 à 4 tours (pas plus, mais à décider), comme des généraux 1-étoile. Par contre leur défaut est l'inactivité, car initialement ils ne s'occupaient que du civil.
Par la suite ces commissaires se sont fait bouffés par leurs propres troupes pour avoir plein d'avantages (hypothèse optimiste, car à mon avis c'est la mafia qui a infiltré cette police), ou bien les nouveaux commissaires sont directement des corrompus: Le joueur ne peut pas recruter des super-commissaires, mais directement des troupes Tchékistes (sans 'généraux', mais sans pb d'activation) ayant moins de qualité qu'auparavant (càd les troupes de ligne + Super-Tchékiste).
Pour résumer, je pense que "Party Members join the Army" a peu à voir avec la Tchéka s'il y a déjà un évènement spécifique à la Tchéka.
. VOKhR: Un peu pareil que la Tchéka, sauf que les Commissaires VOKhR initiaux sont de moindre qualité et directement commandants d'un détachement. Donc, à sa création se sont des unités qui sont données au joueur, puis 4 tours après il peut recruter quasiment les mêmes (de qualité un peu inférieure). (Mais à mon avis la mafia se foutait de contrôler la VOKR, qui avait bien moins de pouvoir que la Tchéka)
Même remarque quant à la VOKhR pour l'évènement "Party Members join the Army".

----------------------------
Anarchistes (en Ukraine)
"the 2 Ukrainian Anarchists forces:
- each year, if there is Red and ANA elements in Ukraine, Reds get desertions.
- end of alliance : if there is 2 times more red elements in Ukraine theater than the (starting) number of ANA units from early 1919, then the Reds can stop the alliance (all ANA units are automatically removed)"

C'est vraiment pas évident d'imaginer ce qui se serait passé en cas de mort de Makhno et de survie de Grigoriev..
Pour moi Grigoriev faisait plutôt partie des Verts (qui pouvaient se battre entre eux entre voisins), mais pour des militants d'extrême-droite qui rêvent d'un fascisme non-autoritaire(!?!), Grigoriev était le vrai anarchiste et Makhno un traître.
Les suiveurs de Grig', à sa mort, auraient accepté la direction de Makhno mais en le rendant responsable de la suite.
Les makhnovistes se seraient finalement débarrassés d'une partie (petite à mon avis) des troupes de Grig', car s'avérant vraiment des pilleurs antisémites.
Je pense qu'une bonne partie des troupes de Grig' n'auraient pas refusé une alliance de circonstance avec les Blancs, comme les makhnovistes ont fait avec les Rouges. Et si Grigoriev avait survécu, et non Makhno, il n'est pas impossible, en miroir de ce qui s'est passé (Makhno tue Grig'), qu'une bonne partie des makhnovistes aient accepté de lier leur sort à Grig' (par contre quasi tous auraient rallié Makhno lors de la mort de Grig'). Mais je ne pense pas que ça aurait duré longtemps (désillusion beaucoup plus rapide qu'avec les Rouges) et ils auraient finalement rejoins principalement les Verts.
Edit: Quoique la makhnovchtina aie continué a 3 occasions sans la direction de Makhno:
. Makhno s'est retiré du mouvement pendant 2(?) mois parcequ'il croyait que c'était lui que les Rouges visaient (et non l'ensemble de l'indépendance ukrainienne).
. Makhno a été au moins 2 semaines dans le coma, dû au typhus se rajoutant sur de ses blessures par balle (les paysans ont réussi à le cacher des Rouges qui voulaient l'achever).
. Le mouvement a survécu après le départ final de Makhno, de manière éparse sous la massive invasion de l'Armée rouge, mais c'est peu documenté.

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Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:49 am

Hey, I finally made myself to sit down an write down some thoughts on the subjet, especially the Krasnov and Wrangel part.

1) Krasnov as a Southern White supreme leader seems wrong to me. He was a cossack general, a strong advocate of independent cossack state. I'm not even sure he'd support a march to Moscow. Also, he was very pro-german, an this was the main reason Denikin managed to force him into retirement after germans left the Ukraine. Cossack army and Volunteer army kind of existed separately from the start. So, if you really want to model the role of Krasnov, the reasonable way to do this would be to make the player choose between Krasnov (cossacks gain the upper hand in the southern white movement, Volunteer army becomes part of Don Army) and Denikin (what happend historically - Krasnov is forced to leave, without a strong leader cossacks become part of Denikin army). Cossack option would have probably been an instant solution to independancies problem (no united and undivided, almost instant alliance with finns, poles an ukranians) and at the same time make a march to Moscow impossible (cossacks fight for their Don-Kuban state, see no reason to go into centall Russia at all). It would also affect foreign support, most of it would go to the north and north-west insted of the south, I suppose. But the public support on Don would be much, much greater at the same time.
Anyway, it shouldn't be Denikin after Krasnov, it should be either Krasnov and cossacks or Denikin and volunteers.
2) Kolchak's role in all this. I may be wrong, but as far as I know, his title as a Supreme Ruler was purely nominal. Denikin recognised him as one in hope to raise the morals, give the impression of a huge unified front, etc., but he had no actual control over situation in the South. So, Kolchak preventing Wrangel from becoming the high commander is a bit strange. Actually, he might have supported him - both Kolchak and Wrangel enjoyed the special attention of UK government, which at the same time found Denikin too independant and unpredictable.
3) Wrangel. In my opinion, theire should be no problem with making Wrangel the high commander from the start except huge cost in EP and maybe NM (representing intrigue and quarrels in Stavka, problems with bruised ego of the "pervoprohodniki", "pioneers" who started the the movenment and were in the Ice March) and appropriate seniority (some loud victories to win the hearts of the public and the frontline troops). Wrangel should be something like recognition of independancies in vanilla - a very expensive option promising great benefits in future.

And about the military control part. The problem is, control of the countryside was important, but wasn't that hard to achieve. As the whites came by, what was left of the red administration ran away without much resistance, as did the white officials in their turn. The country was generally lawless and the peasants easily obeyed whatever administration cared to send a dozen of armed men their way. And even that wasn't always necessary: quite often it was enough to meet the head of the village to initiate cooperation - well, for the whites in the south, at least. Anyway, the peasants did most of the job for themselves. E.g, reds come - the poor villagers establish a soviet an start solving the kulak problem, whites come - the richer peasants gain the upper hand and maintain order. It was all very grassroots. :) Even the infamous prodrazverstka was done by relatively small groups - several dozen well-armed men with help of several locals, controlling one village at a time. Once the "spare" bread was confiscated, the group moved to on to the next village, and the local comissar starting putting a loaded revolver at his bedside before going to sleep. No need to station whole regiments for months, as currently in game. So, in theory the availability of the reforms can be connected to the overral military control, but only if a small unit going through a region is enough to assume 50-ish military control. Or, alternatively, if the military control increases automatically if the key cities in the region are held.

Oof. Sorry for the wall of text :)

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Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:41 pm

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:1) Krasnov as a Southern White supreme leader seems wrong to me. He was a cossack general, a strong advocate of independent cossack state. I'm not even sure he'd support a march to Moscow. Also, he was very pro-german, an this was the main reason Denikin managed to force him into retirement after germans left the Ukraine.


He became a strong advocate of the Cossacks, but just before the October revolution, he was still a high command of the Russian republic and Kerenski government. I think if in charge of the Southern Whites armies, he would have march to Moscow to destroy the Reds, and especially if it means the survival of an autonomous Don Cossacks province/state.

The mythology of the Cossacks was that they were the defenders of the Russian Empire. This is their "raison d'être". I believe they would fight till Moscow, but for sure with less moral if there is no cossack political autonomy.

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote: Cossack army and Volunteer army kind of existed separately from the start. So, if you really want to model the role of Krasnov, the reasonable way to do this would be to make the player choose between Krasnov (cossacks gain the upper hand in the southern white movement, Volunteer army becomes part of Don Army) and Denikin (what happend historically - Krasnov is forced to leave, without a strong leader cossacks become part of Denikin army).
[...]
Anyway, it shouldn't be Denikin after Krasnov, it should be either Krasnov and cossacks or Denikin and volunteers.


The MOD is already runing like this. I mean, Denikin leaves if Krasnov is in Command. But there is still a White russian Volunteer army of course, why should the russian volunteers troops care at this stage of this leaders' political struggles. They came to fight against the Bolcheviks in power in Central Russia, not against a political autonomy of the Don cossacks... :cool:

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:2) Kolchak's role in all this. I may be wrong, but as far as I know, his title as a Supreme Ruler was purely nominal. Denikin recognised him as one in hope to raise the morals, give the impression of a huge unified front, etc., but he had no actual control over situation in the South. So, Kolchak preventing Wrangel from becoming the high commander is a bit strange. Actually, he might have supported him - both Kolchak and Wrangel enjoyed the special attention of UK government, which at the same time found Denikin too independant and unpredictable.

And what about the role of Koltchak, from thousands kilometers away, but who ordered to Yudenitch to not negociate the recognition of the Finnish independence, saving Petrograd from beiing Whites in 1919.
Or Yudenish did obey to Koltchak, or he did obey to Denikin... or to himself... which was the same anyway : they were all against independences. But if there were no Koltchak in Siberia but still a Komuch government, and if there were a more liberal High command in the South (which could be a consequence of a living Komuch connected with the South Whites, as it is a condition in the MOD) , Yudenitch would probably negotiate the alliance with Finland.

What is important here is not the fact that Wrangel and Koltchak agree on their opinion about Denikin's personnality, but that they don't agree at all about the political and diplomatical strategies to save the White cause...
Krasnov or Wrangel would have recognized the independences abroad and the cossacks autonomy inside (or at least, they can represent in the game the part of the Whites leaders who would have done it if they were on power).


Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:3) Wrangel. In my opinion, theire should be no problem with making Wrangel the high commander from the start except huge cost in EP and maybe NM (representing intrigue and quarrels in Stavka, problems with bruised ego of the "pervoprohodniki", "pioneers" who started the the movenment and were in the Ice March) and appropriate seniority (some loud victories to win the hearts of the public and the frontline troops). Wrangel should be something like recognition of independancies in vanilla - a very expensive option promising great benefits in future.


I'm not for the "pay and play your alternate History".
I'm for the "play well & differently and you get paid with an alternate History".

It need a different situation on the map to allow a Krasnov or a Wrangel to be in command early in the RCW. Not only few EP or NM.

A territorial connexion between the Siberian and the South Whites in the Volga, which automatically include a central coordination around the Komuch government, should be the condition so that Krasnov or Wrangel be in command from 1919.

And Krasnov or Wrangel in Command should be a condition for the recognition of independancies.

Note that in the MOD, Wrangel still can be in High Command later, when the South White NM is down (as originally designed) AND when the Koltchak leader unit is pushed away from Omsk. (so the unit can still exist somewhere in far eastern, like in the reality.

Thank you for your comments,

Hope to see you one day on the map :) !
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Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:40 pm

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:The country was generally lawless and the peasants easily obeyed whatever administration cared to send a dozen of armed men their way. And even that wasn't always necessary: quite often it was enough to meet the head of the village to initiate cooperation - well, for the whites in the south, at least. Anyway, the peasants did most of the job for themselves.

The country was not lawless, it was under villages law. Paesants knew the small administration of Whites or Reds was a danger for them, so they tried to not awoke the statist armies which were behind: They were forced to tolerate them, and tried to passivly oppose them, until these administrations treat them like animals.

E.g, reds come - the poor villagers establish a soviet an start solving the kulak problem, whites come - the richer peasants gain the upper hand and maintain order. It was all very grassroots. :)

No. Villagers established a soviet when there were no Whites to put back a kulak. When Reds were coming, they took control of the already made soviets (killing the elected or terrorizing the peasants if needed).
The difference between Reds and Whites was that the paesants already had lived under kulak rules (the White ones). So, at first, the Reds, new kulaks trough their party controlling the lands, had the advantage of not having already proved bad against paesants. Only when Reds proved bad then the paesants wanted to believe in the Whites, until the Whites imposed the tsarists ways trough the return of kulaks and the habit of treating paesants like animal mujiks.

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Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:39 pm

but who ordered to Yudenitch to not negociate the recognition of the Finnish independence, saving Petrograd from beiing Whites in 1919.


Oh, and this is quite interesting. Here is a secret instructional telegram sent to Denikin by Kolchak.

"To gen. Denikin, Ekaterinodar. Armed conflict with Petlura's troops may result in dire consequences. I share your concern with certain areas trying to grab sovereignity and with federative tendencies. But, in given circumstances, I consider hostility and discontent much more dangerous. Any delay in fighting the bolsheviks treats to bring utter destruction to the state. One grave danger makes smaller ones insignificant. This is why I will gladly tolerate recognition of Baltic states independence by Yudenich. I also will, if needed, allow temporary Ukranian independence and recognise eastern Polish border as a legitimate one, in the name of coordinating and unifying Ukranian, Polish and all the rest anti-bolshevik powers. The Gathering of Russian Lands is not a matter of month, and I view the fracturing of the Empire as an inevitable evil. This evil will stop by itself, as soon as peace will come, and the lost parts will gravitate towars strong central authority, one being the only way for the population to get much-desired security and prosperity. I'd also like to note that I'm ready to allow, but not encourage named tendencies. Kolchak.

Finnish independece was a slightly different matter. By 1919 in was recognized by the great powers, therefore no sane russian government could dispute it. Kolchak was unwilling not to allow, but to publicly recognize it. For one simple reason: he didn't want to give federalist-SR opposition back in Siberia another powerful argument. De-facto independece of Finland was not disputed. Knowing this, Finns were ready to fullfill their part of the pact with Yudenich even after Kolchak refused the formal recognition - the army was mobilised and ready.
After taking Gatchina and Krasnoe Selo Yudenich decides that he had already won and refuses finnish help.
Then, a week later, after the Reds stop his offensive, he realises his mistake and approaches Finns again, asking Kolchak for jurisdiction and help.
Telegrams again.

Yudenich, 27th october:
"Finns agree to interfere on known terms, later will be too late". And: "Independence of Finland is a fact, we have to live with it."

Kolchak:
"I continue to insist on Finnish participation. I'm ready to establish diplomatic relations with Finnish government, send an official ambassador and promise not to disturb Finnish independence in any way. I'm also ready to sign an official pact about this and guarantee that all military expenses will be later covered from Russian treasury. Unfortunately, I'm not able to publicly announce the recognition of Finnish independance.

He was not able indeed - the SR would have probably used it as an excuse to start an uprising.
Finns agreed, but on 28th Yudenich's army was in full retreat already.

So, as you see, Kolchak was not a stern imperialist, and didn't even share Deikin "United and Undivided" illusion.

My source is «Struggle for Red Petrograd» by N. A. Kornatovskij, first edition 1929. I do not have the book at hand, quoting an old discussion on the topic from LJ russian sector, but if needed I can get it from a friend who treachereously stole it from me some time ago. Rob the robbers, steal the stolen, that is :D

I'm also very eager to discuss other point, especially the Cossacks and their mythology, but the post is big enough already. Maybe we could focus on Kolchak for now and leave Cossacks for later?

[HTML]
Villagers established a soviet when there were no Whites to put back a kulak. When Reds were coming, they took control of the already made soviets (killing the elected or terrorizing the peasants if needed).[/HTML]

Well, different in different areas. My point is - nobody needed armies, or brigades, or even regiments to bring the country under control. It changed hands, in terms of administration, relatively easy.

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Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:
I'm also very eager to discuss other point, especially the Cossacks and their mythology, but the post is big enough already. Maybe we could focus on Kolchak for now and leave Cossacks for later?



Ancestors of Cossacks in ukraine migrated from Kuman-Kıpcak nomadic tribes. "Koç-ak" word evolved over time? How Russians spell Cossacks in Russian?(as latin words)

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Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:33 pm

Originally "сossack" was indeed a turk word meaning outcasts and adventurers. In modern Russian it is pronounced "kozak".

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Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:31 pm

:thumbsup: Spasiba Babayaga's own beard ;) !

I'm very happy to discuss about this, because i really need more historical details and sources.

Before going on in this topic, i want to make clear that i'm looking for what could be the most realistic conditions which could lead to an alternate history were the Whites would recognize the independences abroad and some political autonomies inside which could bring to the Whites such needed new allies.
Knowing that the current game's conditions of this alternate history - the paiement of mysterious EP or NM - can't be enough concrete explanations for most of the perfectionnist, maniac and fanatics historians gamers of the AGE game's community like us... ;)

So it is not a polemic which aim to absolutelly point out which White leader exactly is gulty for the fatal diplomatical and geopolitical mistakes of the White cause... :p apy:


Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:Oh, and this is quite interesting. Here is a secret instuctional telegram sent to Denikin by Kolchak.

"To gen. Denikin, Ekaterinodar. Armed conflict with Petlura's troops may result in dire consequences. I share you concern with certain areas to grab sovereignity and with federative tendencies. But, in given circumstances, I consider hostility and discontent much more dangerous. Any delay in fighting the bolsheviks treats to bring utter destruction to the state. One grave danger makes smaller ones insignificant. This is why I will gladly tolerate recognition of Baltic states independence by Yudenich. I also will, if needed, allow temporary Ukranian independence and recognise eastern Polish border as a legitimate one, in the name of coordinating and unifying Ukranian, Polish and all the rest anti-bolshevik powers. The Gathering of Russian Lands is not a matter of month, and I view the fracturing of the Empire as an inevitable evil. This evil will stop by itself, as soon as peace will come, and the lost parts will gravitate towars strong central authority, one being the only way for the population to get much-desired security and prosperity. I'd also like to note that I'm ready to allow, but not encourage named tendencies. Kolchak.


Very very intersting. If this (not so anymore :D ) "secret instuctional telegram" is true and if it really illustrate the state of mind of Koltchak, it could show very well why the Fins and the Balts couldn't trust the conservative Whites leaders :

- "I also will, if needed, allow temporary Ukranian independence
" :mdr: No comments needed... :evilgrin:

- "I view the fracturing of the Empire as an inevitable evil. This evil will stop by itself, as soon as peace will come,...etc." He want the Empire back, officially peacefully, but he want it back...

- But after all, i love the terms like "I will gladly tolerate" or "I'm ready to allow, but not encourage named tendencies" which clearly show that he refused to take the political responsabilities for this, although he is the (self)proclamed supreme leader of the White cause ! If HE personnally don't warranty this policy WHO damned will do it ? And if any of its subordonates did it, who would trust them and see here a clear and honest warranty of the new Russian State ?

-
But finally, he even had no subordinates which could simulate a more charming diplomacy : Note that this telegram is send to ...Denikin (not Yudenitch), who, like you said, was for a "United and Undivided" Empire. So we could wonder if Denikin doesn't keep somehow this telegram in his garbage's office and forget to personally transmit this "energic" diplomatical instructions to Yudenitch... :D



Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:[...]
"Unfortunately, I'm not able to publicly announce the recognition of Finnish independance."

He was not able indeed - the SR would have probably used it as an excuse to start an uprising.
Finns agreed, but on 28th Yudenich's army was in full retreat already.

So, as you see, Kolchak was not a stern imperialist, and didn't even share Deikin "United and Undivided" illusion.


Sorry, but what i see, it's not only a stern but an autistic and uncompetent imperialist :

1) How could you justify to not recognize officially the Finnish independence in a such dramatical situation (let's quote Koltchak himself again from its telegram :D : "in given circumstances, I consider hostility and discontent much more dangerous. Any delay in fighting the bolsheviks treats to bring utter destruction to the state, One grave danger makes smaller ones insignificant.) ...just because of some ridiculous internal political affairs with the "SR in Omsk". Is Yudenitch in front of Petrograd surrounded by SRs :confused: ? Is Denikin's HQ in south Russia occupied by any horde of socialists :blink: ?

2) You said "federalist-SR opposition back in Siberia another powerful argument". Do you have more informations about the SR or Komuch official political programs ? If they were for a federal State inside and for the independences abroad, then we could know were vanished the last hopes for any alternative geopolicies... :(

3) You said "SR opposition back in Siberia" ? "the SR would have probably used it as an excuse to start an uprising" ?
Remember that we are in october 1919. It's already one year (november 1918) that the Kolchak Coup was followed by the arrestation of all the main SR politicians in Siberia which were executed or expelled and ended up in Europe.
As said above, i really doubt that the possible few remaining clandestine SR in Siberia would be a menace for Koltchak, but even if it was the case : he created this situation with its Coup d'Etat ! So we are back to the point : it's finally because of its imperialistic and autocratic way of governing that the Kolchak White leadership couldn't have an alternative diplomacy.



Anyway, really, thank you again for this telegrams :coeurs: !
Do you have any other interesting documents, which could show the state of mind of Krasnov and Wrangel ? Or any White leaders who could have performed an other diplomacy, if in power ?
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We start a PBEM with the Mini-MODS.

You can read some more discussions about which one we selected and why at this page :

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=20530
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Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:04 pm

Spasiba Babayaga's own beard !


Pozshalujsta :D

which clearly show that he refused to take the political responsabilities for this, although he is the (self)proclamed supreme leader of the White cause


Don't forget that it was sent to Denikin. With all this "temporary" and "I personally do not like it too, but..." Kolchak obviously tried to convince him that it's not that bad. And failed - the telegram went straight to the garbage, the Whites started fighting Petlura and quarelling with Pilsudski, and, well, we all know how it ended.
Wich also clearly shows an amount of control Kolchak had over the South (and all other theaters) - all he could do was send polite telegrams and hope Denikin is in good mood when he reads them.

it could show very well why the Fins and the Balts couldn't trust the conservative Whites leaders


Oh, but they did trust them. Estonians helped Yudenich, and Finns were ready to fullfill their agreement. Kolchak couldn't recognize independencies de-jure, but de-facto he did, an it was known both to Finns and Estonians. What killed the Petrograd offensive was Yudenich's refusal of Finnish help after the first victories - against Kolchak's direct order, probably under Denikin's influence. And even after that (on 27th) a new agreement was easily reached, but it was too late. Finns never refused to help.

Do you have more informations about the SR or Komuch official political programs ?


I'm having some trouble finding the exact text of Politcentr 11th January manifesto, but as far as I read here and there the post-coup SR-menshevik coalition in the East stood for the widest federalism possible, to the extent of creating fully independant Siberia. I'll try to find some actual documents.

As said above, i really doubt that the possible few remaining clandestine SR in Siberia would be a menace for Koltchak


Only two month later, on 25th december, the SR and Mensheviks started an uprising that put an end to Kolchak and his goverment in ten days. Denikin and Yudenich were not surrounded by the SR, but Kolchak himself was. :)

Before going on in this topic, i want to make clear that i'm looking for what could be the most realistic conditions which could lead to an alternate history were the Whites would recognize the independences abroad and some political autonomies inside which could bring to the Whites such needed new allies.


I agree completely. What I'm triyng to say is that Kolchak's role and situation is Siberia wasn't really important for this. As the first telegram shows, Kolchak a) realised the need for new allies and, unlike Denikin, was not a die-hard imperialist b) had absolutely no control over the situation in the South.
Everything was decided in Krasnov\Wrangel vs. Denikin conflict. I think, for realistic independencies, we should focus on modelling it in the first place.

Do you have any other interesting documents, which could show the state of mind of Krasnov and Wrangel ? Or any White leaders who could have performed an other diplomacy, if in power?


On Wrangel, here is a quote from his famous speech upon taking power in Crimea:

"And now about the reasons of our defeat.
These reasons are many and diverse. All in all, I may say that we sacrificed strategy in the name of politics, and could not do any politics at all.
Instead of unifying all powers, aiming to fight bolshevism, and keep one political couse, a Russian course free of parties and movenments, we kept some strange «volunteer» course, weak, impotent, blurry, seeing enemies of Russia in everybody not looking enough "volunteer". (He is referring not to voluntary participacion, but to "volunteer army", "volunteers" = Denikin and his pervoprohodniki friends)
We fought bolsheviks, fought Ukranians, Georgia and Azerbajan, and nearly started fighting Cossacks, who made up half of our army and with blood spilled in the field of battle proved their loyalty to us. And in the end, as a result of proclaiming United and Undivided Russia, we instead separated all anti-bolshevik powers from each other and broke Russia into small warring states."

He is also known to say "I know not monarchists or republicans, only people of work and knowlege", and, of course "Against the bolsheviks I'd go even with the Devil himself."

Krasnov was a federalist and stood for an indepentent Cossack state. Thing is, Cossacks were not really "white" in the strict sense. They were just another independent state that was gradually taken over by the Whites in a quiet political struggle (removing Krasnov, controlling Don Krug and later a bloody destruction of Kuban Rada). Different outcome of this struggle can lead to a reasonable alternative history route (For example, Volunteer Army is much smaller since less ex-imperial officers are willing to fight under autonomist banner, Cossack player enjoys immense public support on Don and Kuban, etc - well, no particular suggestions, just thinking aloud). The problem here is that this conflict was purely a backstage political intrigue, which is beyond the scale of AGE engine :)
I'll search for the documents that can show the intentions of Krasnov and Don Krug.

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Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:00 pm

Very very interesting :w00t: ...

So finally, Kolchak would not be such an imperialist. But in term of game, it don't change anythings in Siberia, since the generals who placed him in power sould be even worse, since they were very active in the quarrrels and hunting parties against the SR around.


So the key for alternate history would be before the Kolchak Coup and not in Siberia but in South Russia.

Let's look around a still living Komuch in early 1919 :

Do you think that if the Komuch provisionnal government/parliament in the Volga sector would have a territorial connexion with South Russia (and then also, a possible other evacuation way instead of Siberia), via Saratov & Tsaritsin, and if Janin, still as nominated Allied High command inn Russia (so then together with the British), was following and supporting the Komuch, then Denikin would have more chance to loose the internal political fight against Krasnov and other "liberal" officer (like Wrangel) ?

The big question !!!

A pint of slivovica if you answer :D !!
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Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:23 pm

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote: Wrangel speech in Crimea:
" we sacrificed strategy in the name of politics, and could not do any politics at all.

Lol, I like his humour.
, as a result of proclaiming United and Undivided Russia, we separated all anti-bolshevik powers from each other and broke Russia into small warring states."

That is the usual way: Divide to conquer, ...but Denikin always did as if he already won the war: He divided every others but the Reds (as if they didn't exist)...
"I know not monarchists or republicans, only people of work and knowlege",

Yes. That's the French revolution story: The Monarchists and Republicans alike were against Democracy (I somewhat quote Murray Bookchin).
The french republican bourgeoisy allied with monarchists against people, and later with tyrans like the Napoleons, and they renamed the statues for people having died for revolution as "statue of Republic" instead of "statue of Liberty". American statue could come from that afar history.
and "Against the bolsheviks I'd go even with the Devil himself."

Not so.
Anarchists did; many traitors (then no longer anarchists) joined the bolsheviks party, and most of all the remaining had ally with them.
Whites wanting to join the devil against bolsheviks, joined (or tried to join) the Red party itself! Those ex-whites succeded, as they could easily make people angry against Reds just by imposing reds harsh politics. But I think these double-cross 'whites' went actually Red, when they find the Reds could really do the russian empire the Whites were wanting.

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Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:04 pm

So the key for alternate history would be before the Kolchak Coup and not in Siberia but in South Russia.


I'd say, in two particular points: first one is winter 1918 - 1919, when Denikin removes Krasnov using his cooperation with the Germans and his support for an autonomous Don state to accuse him of "selling Russia to the Germans".

And the second one is when Wrangel gathers enough support among the high-ranking officers to openly contest Denikin's powers. Historically it was in late 1919. Without Denikin knowing Wrangel prepared a general meeting of commanders in Rostov planned on 17th december, but Denikin found out and directly forbid them to gather. He also outmanuevered Wrangel by making him the commander of Volunteer Army instead of Maj-Maevski (but not the commander of Southern White army!), a very smart move that left Wrangel with his hands completely tied.
In game terms this should probably be dynamic: it was the loud Tsaritsin victory that allowed Wrangel to become prominent enough, and then he was put in charge of relatively quiet front, and, what is more important, denied enough men and supplies to achieve another one.

I think, we should discuss these two points separately and very closely.

Do you think that if the Komuch provisionnal government/parliament in the Volga sector would have a territorial connexion with South Russia (and then also, a possible other evacuation way instead of Siberia), via Saratov & Tsaritsin, and if Janin, still as nominated Allied High command inn Russia (so then together with the British), was following and supporting the Komuch, then Denikin would have more chance to loose the internal political fight against Krasnov and other "liberal" officer (like Wrangel)?


Well... That is indeed a really difficult question.
First of all, Krasnov: no. Definitely and absolutely no. Krasnov was a mortal enemy of leftist parties, SR in particular. He once said "I have four enemies: intelligentsia, putting party interests above Russian interests, — my most dangerous enemy; general Denikin; foreigners - Germans and Allies; Bolsheviks. And the latter I fear least of all, because I fight them openly, and they don't try to disguise as my friends."

Wrangel... I don't think so either. True, Wrangel was more politically able than any other white leader, but he was right-wing. Also, old nobility, and openly monarchist. Not a pal for the SR. Let's say, Wrangel, afrer taking power, could be willing to ally with the SR - invite them to the government, etc., but SR in power would probably send Wrangel to Serbia even faster than Denikin.

But! I see a third way here.
Denikin's excuse for not doing anything political was "we're not a legitimate government". Now, if Komuch evacuates to the South, he gets his legitimate governmet! Kadets who are already there plus SR and Mensheviks from Komuch - that's a perfect representation of the Constitutent assembly. Even same people, mostly.

Now, may I propose the possible outcomes?

1) Krasnov wins. An independent Don State becomes the main force fighting Bolshevism. Easy alliances, the recignition problem doesn't even present itself, very limited allied support, Don functions as good as any other normal state - good economy, regular recruitment, fully working civil administration. Also, leftist unrest and no alliance with Siberia until Kolchak coup.

2) Wrangel wins. Occupied territories get a pretty decent civil administration. Recognition of independencies theoretically possible. Cossacks are treated ok enough to continue fighting.

3) Denikin gets Komuch and stays in power. Again, liberated lands are working better, and the government gets much more public support (SR are popular and are very good at propaganda), but no independencies (SR support them, but more numerous kadets, led by all-poweful Denikin, do not).

4) Historical route, obviously. Conquered territories are a lawless mess, little to none public support, Cossacks are treated bad, become increasingly angry and finally start deserting in tens of thousands.

This pretty much sums up all options Southern Whites had. What do you think?
I still have no idea how to model the actual choises. Effects of all this on Siberian situation are also a big question.

Ooof. Can I have my slivovica now? :D

...but Denikin always did as if he already won the war: He divided every others but the Reds (as if they didn't exist)...


Thus making the Reds only stronger. True.

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Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:30 pm

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:3) Denikin gets Komuch and stays in power. Again, liberated lands are working better, and the government gets much more public support (SR are popular and are very good at propaganda), but no independencies (SR support them, but more numerous kadets, led by all-poweful Denikin, do not).

SR lost their huge popularity when they governed (or so) before the bolshevik coup, that's why nobody protected them against bolsheviks.
Afterward, voting for them could be for the less evil (like nowadays), and SR could easily appear as popular when they are alone among Whites and their no-ideas...
I don't think being a lesser evil is being popular..

I'm ok for they were popular before they forbid to legalize the sharing of lands among paesants, i.e. until they didn't want to do what they had always told to paesants before the paesants put them to power.

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Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:30 am

SR lost their huge popularity when they governed (or so) before the bolshevik coup, that's why nobody protected them against bolsheviks.


Are you referring to Kerensky period? If so, I'm afraid you're mistaken. The one and only reason for the October coup was Bolsheviks having been steamrolled by the SR in the Constitutent Assembly elections.
Here:

SR - 17 943 000 votes (40.4%)
Bolsheviks - 10 661 000 votes (24.0%)
Ukranian SR - 3 433 000 votes (7.7%)
Kadets - 2 088 000 (4.7%)
Mensheviks - 1 144 000 (2.7%)
Georgian Mensheviks - 662 000 (1.5%)

Plus a handful of other insignificant parties.
Mind that everybody but Bolsheviks would probably block with SR once in government and you'll see that it was an absolute disaster for Lenin and comrades. No wonder they turned to brute force.

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Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:39 am

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:The one and only reason for the October coup was Bolsheviks having been steamrolled by the SR in the Constitutent Assembly elections.

Mind that everybody but Bolsheviks would probably block with SR once in government and you'll see that it was an absolute disaster for Lenin and comrades.

Yes, but you talk about popularity. Popularity is what could have protect the government from a coup. People had weapons (but few ammo, ok), and easily could have kill all bolsheviks and put back the SR government, but almost nobody care... Popularity = nobody care? :bonk: Voting for a government is not showing popularity, it is choosing the masters. Masters are not often popular, they want to believe and make believe they are popular.

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Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:53 am

ERISS wrote:Yes, but you talk about popularity. Popularity is what could have protect the government from a coup. People had weapons, and easily could have kill all bolsheviks and put back the SR government, but almost nobody care... Popularity = nobody care? :bonk: Voting for a government is not showing popularity, it is choosing the masters. Masters are not often popular.


Bolsheviks won in Petrograd (45%) and Moscow (48%). And what is more important, a lot of armed people voted for them - North-Western front (56%), Western front (67%) and the Baltic navy (58%). As long as several hundred thousand armed sailors vote for you, you don't have to care who wins the rest of the votes :)

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Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:05 am

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:Bolsheviks a lot of armed people voted for them

Ok. So bolsheviks could not so easily be destroyed at start, if people tried to..

But, still, I hardly find evidence that the new SR government (Komuch), removing the lands from peasants (doing the reverse they told: when they have power, socialists are no longer for socialism...), could be so popular among them...
SR were prefered to the Whites, as Komuch allowed people congress and trade unions, but we can't say they were still popular (they were before 1917). (Even, many SR turned anarchists after 1917)

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Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:15 am

SR were prefered to the Whites


Yes, and therefore, joining Denikin's government, could give him more broad public support.

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Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:07 pm

andatiep wrote:-------------------------------------------------------------------
Mini-MOD "Nationalities geographical & economical limitations"

National limited ranges :
- ANA troops will loose 50% cohesion if in Bielorussia, Central Russia & South Russia theaters, and 95% if they go even further.

Loose nothing in North (at least Petrograd gubernia):
. think about Kronstadt
Loose nothing in Central Russia:
. red player exploit by putting all ukr ANA there to better betrayal them (bigger exploit than using them to protect Moscow), and historically, some red regiments became ana even in this theater (arround Orel), and went south joining Makhnov to not stand alone

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Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:28 pm

ERISS wrote:Loose nothing in North (at least Petrograd gubernia):
. think about Kronstadt
Loose nothing in Central Russia:
. red player exploit by putting all ukr ANA there to better betrayal them (bigger exploit than using them to protect Moscow), and historically, some red regiments became ana even in this theater (arround Orel), and went south joining Makhnov to not stand alone


I'm waiting the next patch(es) which will have improvements on the topic.

Personally, i think that the ANA in North sector (out of Kronstadt) and Central Russia are too weak to be counted in the game IF the SR uprising happen in 1918. With the repression against the left SR, the cheka elliminated both most left SR and anarchists supporters in Petrograd & Moscow).
So if the left SR uprising happen before the WWI armistice, i would limit the Makhno operation zones in Ukraine.
The Bolcheviks would not allowed them to go out from Ukraine. And Makhno didn't want to fight the Reds, there to go in Moscow or wherever.

But if there is no left SR rebellion in summer 1918 before the Armistice (after, it wouldn't happen before a long time, since the Bolcheviks adopted for sometimes the "Expend Revolution westward" policy) many questions are open to alternative scenarios...
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