czert2
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few small ideas for gold version

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:09 pm

1. radola gaida switching sides to russian whites (eastern ) since after czech legion evacuation he decideded to stay in russia and fight for kolchak as general (actualy no idea if this is scripted since my gaida died in battle before czechs evacuation and gaida have model for whites)
2. allow siberian whites to build aircraft factory in vladivostok. i know not very historical, but finaly planes are useful in gold version and i want some air battles :w00t:
3. event for makno anarchists to switch sides to whites after reds betray them as they did in reality, but well, no idea about condition for it - whites pushed from ukraine ? few great battles between whites and anarchists ? certain date ?
4. make decision new railroad pool independent from buil new factory decision, since i buil as many factories as i could, but sťtill lack enough of railroad pool to move al forces especialy after poles entered war (and if im not mistaken they only bringed troops to move but not new trains - overlook? )
5. new decision which allow whites to buy more/new naval marine ships to get more resources per turn , and mayby even some warships to punish any red commie which dare to move to sea or get to coastal province :thumbsup: .
6. allow whites to sign peace (not alliance) with greens ( universaly or region specific?) since sometimes greens allied with whites against reds ( for stratetical/combat reason, not idealogical), but still they attacked whites too (but well, i dont know abut situation in which they allied with reds against whites).

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ERISS
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Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:58 am

czert2 wrote:3. event for makno anarchists to switch sides to whites after reds betray them as they did in reality,

What do you mean exactly?
There was one story of a makhnovist unit, which was isolated behind White lines, and so felt in the combined propagandas of Red and Whites: this makhnovist unit let believe in a Black&White alliance slandered by Trotsky! and asked by Wrangel,
while, far from this lost unit, Makhno was answering to Whites by killing all the emissaries they could send him (you think it counts for a positive answer about an alliance??).
Or, like this alone unit, you felt too in these combined propagandas... Never believe the bolsheviks.
You're not alone (maybe the 3rd on this forum): Still nowadays, many, and even historians!, like these maknovists, fell in the past (and not so past) red slanders.

but well, no idea about condition for it

An idea, like I told: Whites must pay one (he has only one for all the game) allying Regional Decision in one of his military controled (and loyal?) area (more than 50%) where he guess there is makhnovist unit. One makhnovist simple unit here will be allied with Whites for about 2 turns. It's not very usefull, or to make it suicidal attack on Red or Green.

- whites pushed from ukraine? few great battles between whites and anarchists? certain date?

None.

czert2
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Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:57 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Insurrectionary_Army_of_Ukraine
well, yóou should not view wiky as reliable source, but what was there is why i comed up with this idea, and i thougt about this

previus text was about first aleance between anarchists and reds and breaking it.

Bolshevik-Makhnovist Treaty of Political and Military Alliance

Trotsky once again offered an alliance, sending a plenipotentiary delegation from the Central Committee of the Bolshevik Communist Party, headed by Comrade Ivanov to propose a military and political treaty of alliance; Makhno agreed, subject to a pardon of all Anarchist prisoners throughout Russia.[12] The treaty was drawn up and signed on October 15, 1920 at Starobel'sk by anarchist military and political representatives and the Bolshevik Communist delegation.[14] The treaty, along with a Makhnovist delegation then traveled to the Bolshevik-held city of Kharkiv for official ratification and to plan a common military strategy. Using the arms and munitions previously captured from General Wrangel's infantry brigades in the southern Ukraine, Makhno and the Black Army went on to clear much of Crimea of Cossack cavalry, and helped force a retreat of Wrangel's remaining infantry brigades. After an unsuccessful northern offensive against the Red Army, Wrangel and the last of his forces were evacuated from Sevastopol by the British Navy on November 14, 1920.

However, the Bolshevik Communist government in Moscow initially refused to publish the Bolshevik-Makhnovist Treaty or acknowledge the existence of a formal alliance outside Ukraine. It also continued to denounce anarchism as an illegitimate political movement elsewhere in Russia, accelerating mass arrests and detentions of anarchists in all areas of the country under Bolshevik and Red Army control. After pressure by Makhno, the Central Committee in Moscow eventually published the military section of the Bolshevik-Makhnovist treaty, followed a week later by the political section. A fourth clause concerning the establishment of autonomous committees composed of workers and peasants for self-government of areas held by the Black Army was omitted.[14]
Second repudiation

It soon became clear why Moscow had resisted the publicizing of the Bolshevik-Makhnovist treaty. On November 26, 1920, less than two weeks after completing their successful offensive against General Wrangel's White Army in the Crimea, Makhno's headquarters staff and several Black Army subordinate commanders arrived at Red Army Southern Front headquarters to participate in a joint planning conference with Red Army commanders. Upon arrival, they were arrested and executed on the spot by a Red Army firing squad; the Makhnovist treaty delegation, still in Kharkiv, was also arrested and liquidated.[12][14] The Bolshevik then sent 5 regular Armies numbering more than 350,000 with armoured cars, artillery,aircraft, and armoured trains, with the purpose of destroying the Makhnovist movement. The Makhnovist army barely numbered 10,000 men continued to fight on making raids all across Ukraine and Southern Russia fighting constant battles with much larger and better equipped Red army units. In August 1921 the Makhnovist army ceased to be an organised force, numbering only 1,200-2,000 men scattered across Ukraine. A badly wounded Makhno with 77 of his men crossed the Dniester river to Romania in August 28, 1921. The last Makhnovist forces where destroyed in late 1922 an underground Makhnovist presence would persist into the 1940s

and about other ideas ?

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ERISS
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Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:07 pm

Yeah, I know all this.
So, you were guessing, imagining?
Your sentence was not good:
"makno anarchists switch sides to whites after reds betray them as they did in reality"
as we think you tell your idea is that 'in reality makhnovists switched to Whites side (after that reds betray makhnovists)'.

So, your last 'they' (in reality) was not for the makhnovists (switching side), but for the reds (betraying)... Okay (however nowaday Reds won't agree with you lol, they still tell the betrayer of their alliance was Makhno).

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ERISS
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Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:59 pm

czert2 wrote:6. allow whites to sign peace (not alliance) with greens (universaly or region specific?) since sometimes greens allied with whites against reds (for stratetical/combat reason, not idealogical), but still they attacked whites too (but well, i dont know about situation in which they allied with reds against whites).

Greens are regional.
I think for you the simpler and better, but not what you wanted, is to give more RD to Whites to increase their loyalty in the regions where there is much Red MilitaryControl. What I said in another thread: the Whites lack some 'Subversive' RD.
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?39973-The-White-Subversion-Regional-Decision

czert2
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Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:08 pm

yes, more decisions which increase loayality to whites is one way to make sure that greens dont pop up, but sometimes it takes a long time and frustration to kill all poping up greens.
your subversion idea have one big flaw - it can raise against reds and help you, but more funyly they can raise against you later once you conquer that area.
so it will be useful if you sign truce with greens ;) . that subversion should be used in regions which you plan to fight for way later, but you should not suport greens in moskow area if your closest units is 500 km away right?

czert2
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Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:39 pm

and another one, gibe decion to build tank factory for poles, so they can replace lost tanks, or at lest option to buy them from west.

The Lev
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Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:58 pm

If "Truce with Greens" would exist in any form at all, it would be a very costly regional decision involving some bribe or other, where the green units in a region would dissapear but green percentage in the countryside would go up (They'd gotten their concessions) A simpler way to avoid the green swarms is to not bleed the areas dry with regional decisions in the first place, and make use of what soldiers and money you get from other forces better, works for me

Makhno couldn't stand the whites, he would at times capture white specialists (Which were more often than not killed by his own men) but never allied-i'd say the current model works well, although for hardcore players one could open up the possibility of playing as Makhno in the Grand campaign/Polish soviet war scenario

Keep up the good work ERISS, know that we appreciate it

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ERISS
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Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:51 pm

The Lev wrote: for hardcore players one could open up the possibility of playing as Makhno in the Grand campaign/Polish soviet war scenario
Andatiep explanation:
Andatiep wrote:(...) Politically, the Ukrainian Anarchists faction could not attack the Reds first. After all, they wanted a political fight to convert the masses supporting the Reds, not to force them like the Bolsheviks. Each time they fought against the Red Army, they know they fought against brothers manipulated by a minority of Bolsheviks so they always tried to avoid conventional fights, which is hard to simulate in a wargame !
In any territories they did developed and reinforced, it is in territories where the Bolsheviks terror was not present. Makhno had no other choice than hoping for peace with the Bolsheviks till he get stronger enough so that they give up with their wish to control all Ukraine including the "Free Territory" of the Blacks. Of courses there where nothing to hope about that.

So if Makhno can't decide to fight the Reds when he want and can't ally with the Whites, why making him a different playable faction than the Reds one ? Because it could be more fun to play the game with 4 Human players, 2 per side...? OK, but the Black player will really have few things to manage during all the game.... not like the Eastern White player who have similar amount of things to manage than the Western White player.

Together with the huge works needed to MOD it, that's why we chose an other way to give an other destiny to the Blacks in the game : If the Red player chose the political Option to avoid a Bolshevik dictatorship, he couldn't later chose to crush the Ukrainian anarchists any more and the Black troops will enlarge the "Free territory" where they are used in Ukraine and finish the game possibly controlling all Ukraine as "free territory" but allied with the Reds.
. What I already asked (thread is openened) is a scenario (DLC?) about Ukraine:
in this scale the makhnovists would be independantly played (the petliurists too).

. "If the Red player chose the political Option to avoid a Bolshevik dictatorship, he couldn't later chose to crush the Ukrainian anarchists any more":
I don't agree here, it would cost more but it should be possible (Left-SR less easily sacrifice others, but they would be willing if they find it necessary).
The Lev wrote:Keep up the good work ERISS, know that we appreciate it

Thanks, but my 'work' here is mainly giving many ideas; it's Andatiep who as done the boring stuff of developping them. As actual work I've put some small UI tweeks.

lekseus
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Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:25 am

Do I need Gold database in order to add\replace units?

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