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boudi
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Some comments for the next patch (next 1.06a)

Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:56 am

After playing arround 40 turns, as Red and with the 1.06a patch in a 3 players PBEM game, i submit few comments about the game. Be carreful it's just some ideas, they are maybe wrong or right... Often it's not really an idea, but more a question.

Notice that i have only a Red point of vue, beware the game balance, of course.

*** And definitivly sorry for my bad english. ***

¤ At the begin of the game i noticed a lack of war supplies. So i built 3 factories, the game offers a lot more. It was unnecessary. Late nov 1919 my stockpile of warsupplies is at the top and i can't use it. The main red problem is not war supplies, it's money.

¤ Because lack of money, it's impossible for the red to recrute a large red army than IRL. I read in the Orlando Figes's book that red army count 3 millions men in 1919 (with strong problems of war supplies, shoes, uniforms etc... it's right). It's impossible in the game. I have only 15-20% max of this number, because lack of money. I did'nt try to recrut only Red Gards, who are cheaped, but so innficient.

¤ Because lack of money it's impossible to buy expensive units : artillry, armored trains, airports, armored cars... I built a tank factory at Petrograd but why ? After this factory was finished, tanks are too expensive ! It's a gameplay problem. Maybe red side could have more option to rise money in the politics options screen ? of course every turn i try, in special operations screen, to rise tax in my provinces, but the option is often impossible... (Moscow, Petrograd where the loyalty is high though...) Rules about special operations have to be clarified, often i have an alert message that the mission is aborted because conditions are not ok, but why i can selected the option few turns ago ?

¤ Game balance. i don't know if you have a lot of final result PBEM games. Who is the winner most of the time ? Reds ? Whites ? i don't know in my game it's premature to give a prognostication. But what i realize:
- French army leaved the game late (september or october 1919) ,
- In 1919 Reds are near the black sea, in our game Don Cossack are at Kharkov, Ukraine is totally white,
- IRL Never Don Cossack and Siberians meets each other. They did it in our game, at the north of Tsaristine,
- IRL Siberians were rarely at the west of Volga River, in our game they are at the south of Nizhniy Novgorod.

In my idea Whites are very stonger than IRL. But be carreful. The game need to be attractive for both side. Whites must win if possible. if it is not historical never mind. By exemple in the last AGEOD game, the Pont Empire is not attrative to play. They know defeats after defeats. It's historical, but not really attractive...

¤ Garnison. I realize that systematically if an army attacks an engarnisoned city, with red Gards or Garnison units, the white army no suffer casualties. 0 KIA men, for 6000-8000 deaths in my garnison, entrenched level 4 in the city. It's strongly curious. They take the city and it's normal. But 0 men KIA it's abnormal. In game play you consider maybe that Garnison surrended ? But result : never put a little garnison in a city. It's useless. Keep cities without defense.

Just some ideas...

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andatiep
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Location: Grenoble, France.

Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:37 am

Thanks for your reports.
We did mostly the same conclusions and are preparing some global solutions about War production and supply costs for the next patch (like here : http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Davai_MOD_Presents).
The "More Money" Option will also happen more times (30% chance per turn to be regenerated after activated, instead of only few times in the game).
REVOLUTION UNDER SIEGE GOLD

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Highlandcharge
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Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:35 pm

Hi guys, just thought I would tell you my thoughts... I have a question.

Are you sure about the red army numbers? do the numbers in the game seem low because it doesn't take into account non combat and support
personnel?

Have a look at the troop numbers on the RCW battles wiki page..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Battles_of_the_Russian_Civil_War

Its says that in the battle of Tzarstyn the reds had a little more than 250,000 and the whites 160,000, I believe with aggressive regional recruiting and drafts those number are more than possible... at least they where in my games..

Also I have played quite a few pbems of RUS, in my last as the Southern Whites I managed to push the Reds back to Tula, where the Red player managed to hold me till the end of the game... he won but it was a close call... so the Whites can be made quite powerful and have the potential to win I think...

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Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne
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Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:32 am

My opinion is that the Reds can play defense and field bigger armies. They should always win. It takes mistakes to lose as Red. This is probably about right.

One thing that could be done about the economy. Make tanks, planes, guns, trains, and ships more expensive in war supplies and cheaper in money. This will create a constraint on WS while allowing possible investment in the above unit types. War supplies are pretty much extraneous in RUS (and AACW) right now. Make it so you can either invest mostly in your army, or build factories and start outfitting your armies with more tech. I would also recomend doing something with aircraft. They're worthless right now. At least make the airfields move at 100 speed. I have to take them out of all my stacks so they don't slow me down. I would disband them if it didn't cost VP's.

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boudi
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Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:07 am

Noticed an insignificant problem : the window screens who announce that a factory (industry or tank factory) is finished appear without a picture (1.06a).

Lilan
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:46 pm

Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:49 pm

Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne wrote:My opinion is that the Reds can play defense and field bigger armies. They should always win. It takes mistakes to lose as Red. This is probably about right.

Do you mean, they should win as result of the actual balance or they should win as it is historical?

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Narwhal
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Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:09 pm

In my opinion, in the long campaign, balance is heavily tilted against the red, except against a passive Siberian White, allowing the Red to strike the Southern before they turtle up.

In the short campaign, it seems quite the opposite, though, with an heavy advantage for the Reds.

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boudi
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Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:47 pm

When a White siberian general is killed during a battle, the information is not given to the Reds in the battle report, unlike a southern white general.

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Khanti
Sergeant
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Location: Poland

Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:36 pm

Same subject, same thread.

Here are some my comments for the next patch. I use 1.06a+QF3.
Order of appearence is random.

1. I suggest this new subtitle for golden version "War in Russia" (for better sales). In fact Revolution Under Siege is not very common term for common folk.

2. You may add this song. Will suits well with Poland 1920 scenario.
youtube.com/watch?v=IsI2x2CorOc
youtube.com/watch?v=t815V9viQeU&index=4&list=RDLAL6hq-sK5g

3. Trans-Siberian Railway. I have seen city called Novonikoladevsk (in orange) in province Novonikolayevsk. But Novonikolayevsk was a name in honor both of Saint Nicholas and of the reigning Tsar Nicholas II.

Grand Campaign, Drang and Poland scenarios.

4. Engineers don't have pontoneer ability but text suggest they have. Assault engineers have pontons.

5. RUS: In F6 option Raise More Money it is said that inflation will rise, but two values are given (1% and 5% in the same tooltip).

6. I can't see any differences between red infantry regular regiments of early period (1917-18) or mid period (1919). Only uniforms are different. Flavour? The same with units of 20 or 21-22 period.

7. Militia units texts says 750 men, but mostly they have 900 full strenght.

8. POL generals haveno bio, even those most important ones (Piłsudski).

9. Text says "No Biography available in version 1.0" but perhapes "No Biography available" would be better?

10. All Frontier regiments (faster infantry) have texts "regular RED infantry regiment, mounted on horses" even if they are not RED troops.

11. POL Reserve army has some errors in names (General off 11 InfDiv is model_shortname_POL_Jazwiski).

12. POL Strike Group have cavalry rgt called "Jaegers rgt" (German name for light infantry).

13. POL 18 InfDiv of 5 Army has 4 units called "1st Btn".

14. POL 1 CavDiv of 3 Army has units called "Jaegers Bty".

15. POL Rus faction has option to pay for Red Cossacks in Tsaritsyn, but this region is out of theatre in scenario.

16. DRANG. No picture of hungarian cavalry elite (see AGGalizien Kav Korps).

17. DR Armee Gruppe Sued or Sud? (wrong name?)

18. DR Bohemia 4 Korps of 2 Armee. When inf reg are trained they got status with better stats, but the same name reg of conscripts but they also got 1000 horses but not movement increase. Many times conscript divisions got those horses, why?

19. DR When Militia (landwehr) is trained into conscripts infantry, its initiative, discipline and assault value drops.

20. ALL Supply of trains is too low with comparison to infantry units. Trains should carry significant amounts to support other units.

21. DR I can't recruit Austrian ArGr HQ, as this units require to capital as starting city. But capital is in Berlin and Austrian units can't be recruited on German cities.

22. DR Diplomacy text about selling arms to White Russians says about "ship arms to Helsinki".

23. DR Master Logistician trait says: "Provides 25% reduction on whole stack even if not the commander. This ability aplies if the leader commands the stack".

24. DR Texts says German-Russo Commander can lead German or Bavarian units without penalty.

25. DR Aus elite cavalry (Gd) is weaker in assault than regular cavalry.

26. DR German sold armoured cars to Baltic States are in map WHI (white) faction.

27. ALL Why Army/AG names can't be changed? Common stacks names can be changed and it's OK.

28. DR No text descriptions about RUS destroyers ships. (..)

29. DR There should be not possible to hold more than 32 elements in division, as interface dispalys max 32. Some scenario divisions from start have more (like 39 for example).

30. DR Bohemia. 2 Armee 4 Korps. With officer training in first turn 31 and 82 Laibguard regiments (elite inf with stron morale) are re-trained to weaker Veteran regiments (worse morale better attack/defence). It's Austrian army. The same with Hungarian army (5 Armee 9 Korps in Transylvania).

31 DR Silesia V Armee XII Korps. 226 and 225 Veteran Regiments are re-trained into LeibGuard Regiments (with better stats and morale). It's German army. All is well here.

I hope this helps.

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andatiep
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Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:03 pm

Thank you very much for all your report, Khanti.

We will try to update the next version with many of your reports.

About Polish Biography of leaders, any help is welcomed : Feel free to send us some in english (and FRA, GER, RUS, SPA, if any), with the same amount of words than the others of the game.

Baris
AGEod Guard of Honor
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Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:22 am

'Maszerują strzelcy' is excellent and found the one I have lost long time ago thanks to youtube suggestion. :)
'O mój Rozmarynie' .

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ERISS
AGEod Guard of Honor
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Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:36 pm

Khanti wrote:1. I suggest this new subtitle for golden version "War in Russia" (for better sales). In fact Revolution Under Siege is not very common term for common folk.

You may be right, but war is not only in Russia, and War in Russia seems more about WW2 german invasion.
You already have RUS, in Revolution Under Siege.

Why not "The Russian pink CareBears", it should sold better if we depict this as a war between good 'Russian bear' brothers (here, pink is a mix of White and Red). :neener:
However, thanks for all your notices. :thumbsup: you don't deserve being so joked ;)

What I don't like is the 'hammer and sickle' box, I'm still some uneasy when I see it.
http://www.ageod.com/images/3dbox/170x220/RUS-3dBox-170x220.gif

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andatiep
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Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:34 pm

What about :
Davaï! Russian Civil War
1917-1921
RUS upgrade 2014

I agree 'hammer and sickle' should be removed. It is Anachronistic.

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ERISS
AGEod Guard of Honor
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Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:24 pm

That does not seem an upgrade if 2 years are missing!
"Revolution Under Siege
The Russian Civil War 1917-1923"

If the upgrade is a stand-alone (no need to buy RUS?), it should be said.

I don't know what could replace the box picture. Maybe this tatchanka, it goes well with "Davaï!" ('Onwards!', just 'Let's go!'?)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Tachanka_Nova_Kakhovka.jpg

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andatiep
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Location: Grenoble, France.

Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:41 pm

Khanti wrote:2. You may add this song. Will suits well with Poland 1920 scenario.
youtube.com/watch?v=IsI2x2CorOc
youtube.com/watch?v=t815V9viQeU&index=4&list=RDLAL6hq-sK5g


Can you send me links to download .mp3 files of this songs. Also O mój Rozmarynie.

According that this 3 songs were played and famous among the Polish troops in 1914-1920...

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andatiep
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Location: Grenoble, France.

Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:47 pm

ERISS wrote:That does not seem an upgrade if 2 years are missing!
"Revolution Under Siege
The Russian Civil War 1917-1923"

I would prefere 1921. The Civil War was historically over in 1921, with the last main events of Kronstadt and Tambov.
Pedagogically, i don't want that young players remember that the RCW last till 1923 with our game.
Of course, you could play long after the historical date of the end of the conflicts, like all Ageod's games, don't feel it need to be said in the title.

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ERISS
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Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:23 am

andatiep wrote:I would prefere 1921. The Civil War was historically over in 1921, with the last main events of Kronstadt and Tambov.
Pedagogically, i don't want that young players remember that the RCW last till 1923 with our game.

Some says the end is October 1922 with the fall of Vladivostok, some could say June 1923 with the surrender of Pepelyayev
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Pepelyayev
21 is the sign of defeat of (people) revolution, ok, but about the war vs Whites, it could be 23.
About a civil war, there were armed resistance until 1930's (why Stalin was fed up and made famine and big purge?) (and few awakened resistants in WW2 who fought independantly, nor with Red army and so were ennemies for bolsheviks, nor fought with germans..)

I'm okay that the game was lost for the Whites in 21 (even end 19), and after that historical 21, ingame is not very interesting to play thereafter as a wargame...

I think you can let the 23 date (or remove all dates..), it's not misleading for me.

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