dpt24
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Finland and Yuildech

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:39 am

Okay, so I'm playing a multi player game as the Southern Whites and I'm wondering when exactly I can call in Finland and Yuldech? I've played before in single player games and pulled in Finland but that was with the old patch and I know the new one changed the cost, so I'm also wondering what the new cost is since the game won't show me. As for Yuldech I've never even seen the option but it always comes up in AAR's so I'm wondering how I get the option.

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NY Rangers
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Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:41 pm

Play Fatal Years -mod, it's much better.

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lodilefty
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Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:32 pm

...or keep playing your current game, which has many fixes and improvements since the original release!

Finland becomes available as an Option in January 1920, but only if you've taken the "Recognize Independance" AND the "Baltics join" options first...
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dpt24
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Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:08 pm

Oh, that's a big change from the last patch. I knew it changed some, not that much. Thanks. What about Yuldich (can't spell it) and his expedition for St Petersburg?

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le Anders
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Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:28 pm

lodilefty wrote:...or keep playing your current game, which has many fixes and improvements since the original release!
+1
I had the Yudelich-option at turn 17/18 in the "Kolchak's Coup"-campaign. Occupying the Black Sea ports, Murmansk and Archangelsk. Called in Transcaucasus countries as soon as possible. Haven't called Balts yet.

Baris
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Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:59 am

Respect of the efforts of those who have the will and the knowledge to craft RUS in new shape(including AI) please ! Fatal years better simulated Caucasians and over all historical situation in RCW. We all looking forward more historical simulation,that's the pure and naive intention. No harm or harsh critique intended.

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ERISS
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Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:56 am

Baris wrote:Respect of the efforts of those who have the will and the knowledge to craft RUS in new shape(including AI) please ! Fatal years better simulated Caucasians and over all historical situation in RCW. We all looking forward more historical simulation,that's the pure and naive intention. No harm or harsh critique intended.

??? paranoia?

dpt24
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Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:38 pm

Okay, it's nice to know about Fatal years, but seriously, I"m asking a question that pertains to a game I"M IN THE MIDDLE OF PLAYING so it's not very relevant. I just would like to know how to trigger Yuldich in the regular game on the latest patch.

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Durk
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Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:17 am

The key to triggering the Yudenich option is to have enough Engagement Points. If you are short of the 10 EP (? if I remember the number correctly), then the event is not presented to you. This took me a lot of time to learn, but if you hoard your EP, the event will present itself.

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le Anders
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Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:25 pm

Yes, the real problem for the Whites is having enough money.

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NY Rangers
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Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:56 pm

lodilefty wrote:Finland becomes available as an Option in January 1920, but only if you've taken the "Recognize Independance" AND the "Baltics join" options first...


Why so late? That is ahistorical.

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lodilefty
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Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:25 pm

I'm not a historian.
...but game balance may also be a factor...

What should it be? Please include references with your recommendation.
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Durk
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Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:15 am

The Finland option is not historical, so current penalties and obstacles are just fine.
"The governments of the border powers (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine etc.), which had recently gained independence, would have been natural allies of the white Russians. But as the white Russians were still aiming at maintaining the frontiers of the old Russian Empire, the governments of these countries did not want to get involved in battles outside their own borders. Consequently, Judenitsh, among others, could look for no support from Finland, and the white generals were incapable of coordinating their offensives. Their cooperation failed, whereas the Soviet troops could be rapidly transferred from one front to another." http://www.mannerheim.fi/07_vhoit/e_kansot.htm

The Yudenich option fires well in historical time, if the White player sets aside the needed resources for this event.

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Narwhal
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Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:33 am

The problem is that Finland has so much punch that if it intervenes, the Red is doomed. The previous RUS version "solution" was to inflict a massive NM penalty when Finland joins war, but even this was not enough and it was homeruled in many case.

The current solution is purely non-historical BUT balanced, Ithink. FY tries to balance it by giving it a very low chance to success (the issue being : if Finland does join the war we are back on "unbalanced" I suppose - never used the option in FY).

In my opinion, the best solution would be to fall back on "history" but to make Finland units static until 2 or 3 turns after the War Declaration (call that mobilization, Red strikes blocking the armies, ...) so the Red can rush troops in defense of Petrograd. In any case, I believe Finnish forces are maybe too powerful, but this may be historical. In addition, once Petrograd has fallen, you can give the Reds an option to peace out ONLY against Finland (a variation of what I describe below - see te end of the post).

Another solution which could be combined is to make Finland an independant faction and tweak its AI so it does not seek to go beyond its historical "Greater Finland" (which basically would encompass Petrograd as a "guarantee" on Ingria, and Karelia). This way, the White player would have an event which would significantely bother the Reds, without it being able to deliver a killing blow (it won't go until Moscow) and without direct control on it. "Another person on another website" discarded the solution because it would lead to both White and Finnish faction doing uncoordinated offensive on the Petrograd region, which is an issue, but not as bad as the current situation in Vanilla RUS.

If you are feeling especially vicious and it is in your "patcher" mandate, you can create an event "Red Peace with Finland" :

Conditions :

Finland controls Petrograd
Low Red NM
High Finnish NM

Red is at peace with Finland,
Red concedes Karelia up to Murmansk
Finland gives back Petrograd
Finland at war with Southern Whites if Murmansk under White control. Peace by automatic event when Murmansk falls to the Finns, closing the entire region out of the game.

Advantage on this event : the Reds can recover their best city even if defeated militarily by the new faction... and the Finland declaration of War can bite the Whites back, making it a dangerous option.

The only strategical area for the Red in the whole Estearn Karelia region would have been the port of Murmansk and the whole railroad access to it. The proximity with Petrograd would not have been important - it would not have been closer than the "starting" border. If Reds were desperate and Petrograd under Finnish control, we can imagine that's the sort of peace treaty the Red would have been OK with... especially if it means sending the Finnish to attack the North-Western whites to get Murmansk back.

Yes, Murmansk was an ethnic Russian city, but founded in 1916 by settlers... The rest was in large parts Sames and Finns.

That could create an issue if the Reds then attack along Karelia, with both factions being "in competition".

If you don't believe the Finns could attack the English (or the Reds) :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viena_expedition (mitigeant : that's 1918 - when the Finns were seen as Germany's puppets ; they might not have provoked the English after the Central Power defeat).

Other links :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tartu_%28Russian%E2%80%93Finnish%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aunus_expedition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Karelian_Uprising

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ERISS
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Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:17 am

Excellent ideas!
Narwhal wrote:In my opinion, the best solution would be to fall back on "history" but to make Finland units static until 2 or 3 turns after the War Declaration. In addition, once Petrograd has fallen, you can give the Reds an option to peace out ONLY against Finland

Another solution which could be combined is to make Finland an independant faction and tweak its AI so it does not seek to go beyond its historical "Greater Finland"
"Another person on another website" discarded the solution because it would lead to both White and Finnish faction doing uncoordinated offensive on the Petrograd region, which is an issue,

( Î above ) I don't think that's so an issue: White and Finnish could compete in the taking of Petrograd, as Whites could want it for their Greater Russia.
(makes me think about USA and USSR for Berlin)

, you can create an event "Red Peace with Finland" :
: the Reds can recover their best city even if defeated militarily by the new faction... and the Finland declaration of War can bite the Whites back, making it a dangerous option.

If Reds were desperate and Petrograd under Finnish control, we can imagine that's the sort of peace treaty the Red would have been OK with... especially if it means sending the Finnish to attack the North-Western whites to get Murmansk back.

Yup, Murmansk goods and money and coming of new foreign soldiers through the port and rail could help Whites (or Reds if they own it) in taking back Petrograd in the future, or Moscow?

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Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne
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Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:01 pm

Narwhal wrote:The problem is that Finland has so much punch that if it intervenes, the Red is doomed.


I've seen people say this and home rule it and such, but I've not seen that. The Finns are powerful, but one good dug in corps can stop them (or anything for that matter...) The Whites don't have much of a chance if they don't get the Finns.

dpt24
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Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:26 pm

I really need Finnland in my game because the WHites are losing rather badly. I should get Baltics soon and perhaps Yuildech but not sure if that'll be enough

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RebelYell
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Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:16 pm

Narwhal wrote:The problem is that Finland has so much punch that if it intervenes, the Red is doomed. The previous RUS version "solution" was to inflict a massive NM penalty when Finland joins war, but even this was not enough and it was homeruled in many case.

The current solution is purely non-historical BUT balanced, Ithink. FY tries to balance it by giving it a very low chance to success (the issue being : if Finland does join the war we are back on "unbalanced" I suppose - never used the option in FY).

In my opinion, the best solution would be to fall back on "history" but to make Finland units static until 2 or 3 turns after the War Declaration (call that mobilization, Red strikes blocking the armies, ...) so the Red can rush troops in defense of Petrograd. In any case, I believe Finnish forces are maybe too powerful, but this may be historical. In addition, once Petrograd has fallen, you can give the Reds an option to peace out ONLY against Finland (a variation of what I describe below - see te end of the post).

Another solution which could be combined is to make Finland an independant faction and tweak its AI so it does not seek to go beyond its historical "Greater Finland" (which basically would encompass Petrograd as a "guarantee" on Ingria, and Karelia). This way, the White player would have an event which would significantely bother the Reds, without it being able to deliver a killing blow (it won't go until Moscow) and without direct control on it. "Another person on another website" discarded the solution because it would lead to both White and Finnish faction doing uncoordinated offensive on the Petrograd region, which is an issue, but not as bad as the current situation in Vanilla RUS.

If you are feeling especially vicious and it is in your "patcher" mandate, you can create an event "Red Peace with Finland" :

Conditions :

Finland controls Petrograd
Low Red NM
High Finnish NM

Red is at peace with Finland,
Red concedes Karelia up to Murmansk
Finland gives back Petrograd
Finland at war with Southern Whites if Murmansk under White control. Peace by automatic event when Murmansk falls to the Finns, closing the entire region out of the game.

Advantage on this event : the Reds can recover their best city even if defeated militarily by the new faction... and the Finland declaration of War can bite the Whites back, making it a dangerous option.

The only strategical area for the Red in the whole Estearn Karelia region would have been the port of Murmansk and the whole railroad access to it. The proximity with Petrograd would not have been important - it would not have been closer than the "starting" border. If Reds were desperate and Petrograd under Finnish control, we can imagine that's the sort of peace treaty the Red would have been OK with... especially if it means sending the Finnish to attack the North-Western whites to get Murmansk back.

Yes, Murmansk was an ethnic Russian city, but founded in 1916 by settlers... The rest was in large parts Sames and Finns.

That could create an issue if the Reds then attack along Karelia, with both factions being "in competition".

If you don't believe the Finns could attack the English (or the Reds) :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viena_expedition (mitigeant : that's 1918 - when the Finns were seen as Germany's puppets ; they might not have provoked the English after the Central Power defeat).

Other links :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tartu_%28Russian%E2%80%93Finnish%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aunus_expedition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Karelian_Uprising


Petrograd is in middle of Ingria but i can tell that historically there is no chance that Finland would have tried to claim that land.
Finnish whites as nationalists would have taken Karelia but not the Russian population of Petrograd.

There is no such scenario where this is possible, ever.
There where talks of a united Finland and Estonia in the nationalist movement, all the tribes in the same country. :D

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Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:13 pm

RebelYell wrote:Petrograd is in middle of Ingria but i can tell that historically there is no chance that Finland would have tried to claim that land.
Finnish whites as nationalists would have taken Karelia but not the Russian population of Petrograd.

There is no such scenario where this is possible, ever.
There where talks of a united Finland and Estonia in the nationalist movement, all the tribes in the same country. :D


As I said, in such a scenario, Petrograd would go back to the Reds in all cases. Not a chance the Reds trade it away of course - it would e like the French trading Paris away. Estonia may or may not switch I don't know. The AI would try to control Petrograd in order to trade it away in such a scenario, not to keep it in a post-war settlement.

Could the Finns in real life actually occupy Petrograd even if no Red army was on the way is another issue.

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RebelYell
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Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:07 pm

Narwhal wrote:
Could the Finns in real life actually occupy Petrograd even if no Red army was on the way is another issue.


I dont think so, that would have had to be as part of a larger foreign intervention.

Btw, Finland could have broken the siege of Leningrad 41-42 with the Army of the Isthmus with Heeresgruppe Nord south of the city.
But that would have been costly and Mannerhein knew that would make a possible peace treaty impossible if Barbarossa would fail, wise man.

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NY Rangers
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Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:23 am

lodilefty wrote:I'm not a historian.
...but game balance may also be a factor...

What should it be? Please include references with your recommendation.


I politely ask you to find references yourself. The window of opportunity for Finland's official involvement (there were already 'volunteers' in Karelia - "greens" in the game) was in 1919 before Mannerheim lost presidential elections and the defeats suffered by Russian Whites - the latter factor being more important.

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lodilefty
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Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:43 am

Seems to me after reading Wikipedia, that the best solution is to make Finland a non-player AI faction [like Ukraine], and create a trigger event that uses a small time frame [1919 or part of it] and requires Whites to be ahead, Balts to have entered, and still carry a low probability. Fins would declare war on Reds, and end the war if Petrograd is captured, at which time FIN would be restored to Status Quo Ante and permanently blocked from further play...

...fertile grounds for a mod....

I could easily change existing entry window to have MinDate MaxDate in 1919, to create a small window, with a % chance that the Whites spend the resources to activate FIN, and get nothing [representing Mannerheim's internal political failure].....
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le Anders
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Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:01 pm

Yeah, Finland is OP. The Reds aren't really capable of defeating them unless they're AI.

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lodilefty
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Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:05 pm

For next patch, I propose:

For Finland option to appear for Southern Whites choice:
1. Start date June 1, 1919
2. End Date December 16, 1919
3. Southern Whites must have already taken the "Recognize Independance" option
4. Southern Whites must have taken the Balts Join option
5. The Yudenich Army option must have already been taken by Southern Whites
6. REDs must not have already declared war on Finland
7. A probability roll must tyhen be passed [5%]

Thus, Finland can be invited, but only in a situation that is very close to historical [Balts and Yudenich possibly threarening Petrograd]

FIN as AI is still to be considered, but not for the upcoming patch....

Constructive comments welcome!
Counter-arguments should supply credible references.
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Taijian
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Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:51 pm

Sounds great! I believe all of us really appreciate your continued support and dedication to making this game ever better and more historical.

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NY Rangers
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Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:15 am

lodilefty wrote:Counter-arguments should supply credible references.


Isn't it a bit strange to demand references, when you have made changes without them?

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PhilThib
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Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:34 pm

NY Rangers wrote:Isn't it a bit strange to demand references, when you have made changes without them?


Thanks Lodi for the changes. And what Lodi means is that if someone does not like the changes, he can make his points if supported by references. There was no need to comment that point !! :turc:
Image

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lodilefty
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Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:43 pm

I lack easy access to anything other than WikiPedia, which I believe is not always a credible source.

...however in this case, WikiPedia appears sufficient for such an obscure tidbit of history.

...but in reality, it appears to me that the Finns should actually be permanently blocked and not involved in the Rtussian Civil War.
This change at least holds out a small chance to alter history.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the goal was to create an enjoyable game with enough variability to want to replay scenarios, based on history.
To absolutely repeat history in every instance is not a game, IMHO. It's a graphic history lesson.
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ERISS
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Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:01 pm

lodilefty wrote:For Finland option to appear for Southern Whites choice:
6. REDs must not have already declared war on Finland
7. A probability roll must then be passed [5%]
Thus, Finland can be invited, but only in a situation that is very close to historical [Balts and Yudenich possibly threarening Petrograd]
Constructive comments welcome!

6. I don't understand why Finland can not join Whites if Finland is at war with Reds. On the contrary it should help no?
7. The probability seems very low, but I don't know about Fin politics.
At least, if that's gameplay-wise, rarity is not a solution to an unbalanced feature (if unbalanced) (Nobody will sacrifice for the chance or maybe if desperate, or it will just be a lucky big bonus for an already good player):
So in multiplayer games, there may be houserule which forbid this feature.
I think that's a good feature, but we (err, you) must be carefull about how it is done.
lodilefty wrote:This change at least holds out a small chance to alter history.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the goal was to create an enjoyable game with enough variability to want to replay scenarios, based on history.

Sure!

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lodilefty
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Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:28 pm

ERISS wrote:6. I don't understand why Finland can not join Whites if Finland is at war with Reds. On the contrary it should help no?
7. The probability seems very low, but I don't know about Fin politics.
At least, if that's gameplay-wise, rarity is not a solution to an unbalanced feature (if unbalanced) (Nobody will sacrifice for the chance or maybe if desperate, or it will just be a lucky big bonus for an already good player):
So in multiplayer games, there may be houserule which forbid this feature.
I think that's a good feature, but we (err, you) must be carefull about how it is done.

Sure!


6. If the Reds have declared war, the Finnys are already allied with Whites!
Probably poorly worded....

7. You won't pay unless they pass probability.

I've recieved some credible research [as I asked], and still feel this is a good solution.

My understanding is that while the Finny bunch hated Reds, but were extremely unlikely to participate in Whites fight...
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