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ERISS
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German invasion

Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:55 pm

As a game, I think a 'what if' is missing: What about without the Brest-Litovstk peace treaty?
For a revolution game, I think that is a big lack, as almost all revolutionnaries (even bolsheviks, but who let Lenin decide) were against a peace at-all-cost like was Brest-Litovsk.
So, I think Ukraine could be opened to player from the start.

I know that's a very big History alternative, and maybe many events have to be rethink or invented. That's a big work.

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Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:23 pm

This is going to be a lot of work indeed, but what is the benefit for the player(s)?

It's going to make the Reds even more weak, so what is the point?

Now, for the OOB and troops, I guess you can find most of what you need in the Drang setup ;)
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ERISS
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Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:36 pm

PhilThib wrote:This is going to be a lot of work indeed, but what is the benefit for the player(s)?
It's going to make the Reds even more weak, so what is the point?

Reds should have been military weaks for the moment, at worst they would have lost Moscow, but that would not have been the end of revolution*.
About weakness, politically the bad Treaty had made the bolsheviks weak with all other factions, as almost everybody (Whites, SR, anarchists,) saw them as traitors (for different reasons).
The benefit for the player is another fighting style, with a big partisan war against the germans:
Now, for the OOB and troops, I guess you can find most of what you need in the Drang setup ;)

I know, that's even far bigger than necessary, as german occupation troops were not the best: they were some demoralized troops, almost going in theoricaly peacefull ukraine as vacation...
* Makhno with very few partisan could send the german back home, and free his home countryside.

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Kev_uk
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Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:17 pm

But you could also argue, that without Brest-Litovsk, the Revolution would have continued another conflict with Germany. Germany needed the treaty to divert troops to France and Belgium, because they were loosing. I do not think that Germany either wanted more conflict with the Eastern Front...they needed the peace, and it was a necessary concession the Bolsheviks to continue their program.
I do not think it is historical that this should be allowed, even with a hypothetical scenario. As PhilThib says, we have the Drang scenario to do this.

I play Clovis' Fatal Year mod presently, this is a really interesting mod. Much more 'fun' and challenging. But I also would love more developments from Sep Reds too. The stock campaign is good as well. Please dont neglect this title...

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ERISS
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Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:44 pm

Kev_uk wrote:without Brest-Litovsk, the Revolution would have continued another conflict with Germany. Germany needed the treaty to divert troops to France and Belgium, because they were loosing. I do not think that Germany either wanted more conflict with the Eastern Front...they needed the peace, and it was a necessary concession the Bolsheviks to continue their program..

So, everybody wanted peace and there should not have been this bad peace. So I'm right with my what-if: What if Lenin was not afraid losing power? as germans saw Lenin was afraid and so they asked territories and were agreed.

I do not think it is historical that this should be allowed, even with a hypothetical scenario.

What if the bolsheviks had been courageous? I think that's a scenario many gamers would like being able to try.
With revolutionnary resistance, my answer is that the german finally would agree removing from the invaded territories and would have ask this time for a good peace, as I think that would be very dangerous for them to continue making war, as they had a russian-like revolution begining to grow at their own home.
And bolsheviks, having won through resistance, would have been seen as heroes, and not traitors.

, we have the Drang scenario to do this.

Even usefull for the what-if I tell, Drang is another story.

Please dont neglect this title...

:confused: I don't. I wouldn't be here if I were.

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Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:31 am

Yes true. But also Germans allowed Lenin back into Russia with the sealed train, to cause discontent with Russia.

But we have Drang? I do not think Reds could have fought a combined White and German war at all. They would have lost. It is hard enough to play reds from 1918 up until late 1919 when you start getting the WSU, conscripts and money to build up a force strong enough to counter the whites. With German, it would crumble.

If the German revolution had won then...well...that is a History 'what-if'. Interesting however. Really.

No I did not mean you Eriss, I meant sep reds and Phillipe. Its a really good game. The true meaning of a historical wargame.

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ERISS
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Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:49 am

Kev_uk wrote:I do not think Reds could have fought a combined White and German war at all. They would have lost. It is hard enough to play reds from 1918 up until late 1919 when you start getting the WSU, conscripts and money to build up a force strong enough to counter the whites. With German, it would crumble.

Not sure for me. That's why I'm interested.
People could see what between Reds and Whites fight the better against german, and decide to join this 'better' side... ??
Imagine if all the Green were Red(/Whites?) instead of against them, for seeing reds as saviour as nationalism anti-german, ...

Even if we loose, that would be very interesting playing it.
That's not to say I refuse to adapt, but I mainly prefer to 'loose' with my will than winning against it.
(Vichy WW2 'adapted' to germans :neener :)

A 'what if' too, is about forced industrialization. What without? (but that may already be possible ingame through the F-keys options)

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Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:40 am

ERISS wrote:Not sure for me. That's why I'm interested.
People could see what between Reds and Whites fight the better against german, and decide to join this 'better' side... ??
Imagine if all the Green were Red(/Whites?) instead of against them, for seeing reds as saviour as nationalism anti-german, ...

A 'what if' too, is about forced industrialization. What without? (but that may already be possible ingame through the F-keys options)


So you are saying that Greens could be pro-Soviet and fight against German?

Well without weapons factories for Reds, then...hahah...no more Reds. I suggest if you really want a tough Red fight, then play Clovis' Fatal Years mod. Now that is a real *challenge* for the Reds...Baltics...Poland...tough stacked Siberian forces. Then come back and tell me if you also *want* Germans as well (which are in the mod..Friekorps).

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ERISS
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Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:47 pm

Kev_uk wrote: if you really want a tough Red fight, then play Clovis' Fatal Years mod.

Games are usually made to be balanced. I don't want a though game at all cost, but more alternatives. The game would have to be balanced again with these new alternatives.
My point was just this: Making it a point, and maybe talking about. I know this won't be included ingame, as it would be a heavy work and is not a priority. Maybe in 20 years.. :neener:

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Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:45 pm

ERISS wrote:Games are usually made to be balanced. I don't want a though game at all cost, but more alternatives. The game would have to be balanced again with these new alternatives.
My point was just this: Making it a point, and maybe talking about. I know this won't be included ingame, as it would be a heavy work and is not a priority. Maybe in 20 years.. :neener:


This is true. However please do not neglect Clovis' mod...it really makes you actually want to play the game, and think about strategy for the Reds. You have essentially three theatres to deal with; Siberian, Southern and Western. I find this a really good wargame experience, it makes you work hard in trying to build up enough forces to counteract. I dislike pushover AIs, the game is lost if this is the case. With AACW (not played for sometime now) I could usually defeat AI with several stacked massive battles...but with RUS it is not all the same, or at least with FY. I find it actually a hard game.

I appreciate your call for a German offensive with a Grand Campaign. But we have the Drang scenario. However ask Clovis... :wacko:

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Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:09 pm

never


April 18: Germans enter Petrograd

June 18: German enter Moscow and install a puppet State with Gal Bermondt-Avalov as head of State. The new government recognizes independance of Ukraine, Balt nations, Finland, Transcaucasus and Cossack hosts, all under German protection. German troops retire to these areas, Germany being short of men on the Western Front.

Following these defeats, Bolshevik Party splits in several factions, opposed on the pursuit of war, the nedd to ally with others Socialist groups to fight against Germany or ally with Western Allies. Lenin flies to China and will die in exile in 1924 at New york, deconsidered by his failure to create a ocialist State in Russia.

July 18: Western Allies tries to form a new Front against Germany in Urals, with the help of Czech legions, remains of Russian Armies and the Komuch. Quickly, in spite of their efforts, these groups begin a vicious infighting close by the rise of Admiral Kolchak as head of State of the Russian provisional government. Kolchak installs a military dictature and ban Socialist activity. In the country, rebellions spread up, paralyzing real military action against Bermondt-Avalov, himself trying with the help of Cossacks and other militias to stop peasants revolts.

He has more success in large cities where Red insurrections are easily reprimed. Urban population is dwingling fast because of supply troubles. Germany, yet short of men,and confronted to unrest in the rich Ukraine, limits his help to captured Russian equipment supply and pression on Transcaucasus and Finland goverments to send units in rescue of Bermondt-Avalov.

In Ukraine, a small band of Anarchist led by Makhno led a guerilla without being able to enlarge it geographically because of a cruel shortage in arms.

November 18: The Don Cossacks, allied to germany, crush the Volunteer Army who has made alliegiance to Kolchak.

December 19: Germany signs armistice with Western Powers, after the fall of Munich in november 19 in American hands.

January 20: With the arrival of the first massive Allied help, Kolchak begins a large offensive against Bermondt-Avalov regime, crumbling since the end of German help.

April 20: Kolchak enters Moscow, but is more and more confronted both to Peasants revolts and Allied pressure to make reforms, especially from France, in search of funds since the end of war and willing to resume with the investments she made before the war.

July 20: Kolchak is killed in a putsch 15 days after having promulgated a moderate law about Land reform. Russia, now a little more than the old Duchy of Moscow, as Allied has kept independance for minorities under new governments. France and Great Britain break diplomatic relations with Russia and his new head of state, Baron Ungern Von Stenberg... japanese government occupies Irkutsk.

Russia for the next ten years is ruled by military cliques confronting in putsch activity, a state of chronic unrest devasting the country divided among Warlords whose the most famous is Semenov in the far East, backep up by japanese troops. Most peasant communauties are fighting in regional revolts, calling for self administration of their region by themselves in Soviets, without clear reference to a socialist doctrine except by names. One the most common slogan is " We want Bolshevism without socialism"...

Socialist activity is now very weak, repression and desindustrialization having done most for clearing ranks. Stallin, refugied in Georgia, tries to build here a rural stronghold, but lacking true military skill, is killed in 1923. Trotsky has been shot after the repression of the Saint-Petersburg insurrection in March 1922.

Helped by Poland and French units, Ukrainian Government, led by Petliura, is slowly consoliding during these years, by playing on Ukrainian nationalism of peasants and the return to some economical prosperity thanks to Western subsidies.

In January 1924, Makhno and his last partisans are killed in a small scale affair by the French 4th Bataillon of Tirailleurs Algériens.


In game term, the game for Reds would have come to end around June 18.

Hence never.
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975

My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/

[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]

the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

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Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:54 pm

I always thought Revolution were able to be achieved in Turkey depended on Lenin's withdrawal from caucasus and OE lands near black sea to establish 'safe' socialism. That was the only chance to survive a 'miracle' for the others under occupation .
But on the other hand it is not illogical to think the only chance to survive for Reds were to get out of war as quick as possible. Even ultra-nationalist parts of Russia would be against extended war that they would refuse to take arms. Maybe a war with guerilla doctrine.

In what if scenario maybe Reds wont be called 'traitor' by other factions if they continue fighting but they wont be remembered as much in history as today.

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Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:20 pm

Why is it always Kolchak? :) I always felt that he was more of a proxy - they had to send someone to Siberia, and Kolchak was the only man with reputation available at that time.
Also, Krasnov still in power means two options - he either made peace with Denikin (and allows him to retreat eastwards with some dignity) or he didn't (and that means HUGE problems for the Volunteers from the start, effectively preventing the formation of the army. Both options leave the excellent southern officer corps free to go an fight in the East.

It seems to me that the promise of "peace at all costs" is what brought Bolsheviks to power in the first place. It was the only thing that could win the support of the soldiers, really. Republic, egality, fraternity and all that was fun, but people just wanted to go home (preferably grabbing something
valuable along the way). Bolsheviks promised them that, Kerensky didn't.
So, I don't see bolsheviks without Brest-Litovsk, at all, German offensive or no German offensive.

Btw, guys I'm sorry for the classical disappearance immideately after promising to do a lot of work :D It seems that a job that consumed most of my time since winter is finally over, and I can give Krasnov's autobiography attention it deserves. :)

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Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:02 am

Czech were at first for the Reds, they joined the Whites for the bad Treaty.
English went landing to Russia for russia did no longer fight the germans.
...
Without treaty of B-L,Whites would have been weaker for many reasons.

Lenin was the sole wanting peace at all cost, after the first good treaty, he somewhat ninjaed the signature giving territories and legalized the german cheated invasion.
I think that's false saying that soldiers wanted this last peace. They wanted peace, not giving away their country (cf Czech having feared this).

People had voted for SR and keep voting for even they no longer had confidence in them (so, they showed they were even less confident with bolsheviks). And after the Treaty, Right-SR went White doing Komuch at Samara, and Left-SR left the bolsheviks and went Green/Black.
So, I think people, having still voted for SR, were not happy with the Treaty, and were even less liking bolsheviks, but people did not react as SR for some reasons...

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ERISS
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Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:27 pm

The more I read, the more I see German would more quickly run home from Russia, Ukrainia and all, if there were no Treaty: Less German troops to the West means a quicker victory for France...
More troops to the East far from home, with worst news from the West front, means more troops with a bad morale, more german troops worked by anarchist and bolshevik propaganda (It may have improved the German revolution). The partisan war (only done by anarchists under the Treaty) would not be so bad for the Reds.. Military defeats does not means war defeat, as History proved many times (see France against Algeria).
The Bolsheviks would be politically reinforced once the German are gone; Lenin, proved wrong, would still be seen wise and democrat to not having made his coup on the Party; anarchists and SR would be more tolerant about bolsheviks and would not try to kill Lenin (at least, not so early); there would be less Green(Nationalist) uprisings, less Whites forces (as many reds had turn White for the Treaty)
I now think the Treaty was a gamble for the Germans, they bet on Lenin would be more afraid than them... It was a test of courage.
But, it would be another game, as the what-if is so huge..

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ERISS
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:07 pm

I somewhat edited a French text, from "Ukraine, le fantôme de l'Europe" (J.Benoist-Méchin, 1941)
Le 20 novembre (1917), notification de l'indépendance ukrainienne est faite à l'Angleterre et à la France, qui s'empressent de reconnaître le nouvel Etat (la Rada) et y envoient des représentants officiels: le général Tabouis, pour la France, et Mr. Piston Bagge, pour l'Angleterre.
(...)
9 février, les troupes rouges entrent à Kiev., l'Ukraine (la Rada) fait appel à une aide étrangère. Les délégués de l'Entente cherchent à s'y opposer, (puis) Le général Tabouis et la délégation britannique quittent l'Ukraine. Le même jour, le traité de Brest-Litovsk est signé entre l'U.R.S.S. et l'Allemagne. Le gouvernement ukrainien s'enfuit à Jitomir, non sans avoir adressé un message aux armées austro-allemandes, leur demandant d'occuper le pays pour en chasser les bolcheviks.


Le traité de Brest-Litovsk et l'occupation allemande.

Amorcées dès l'automne de 1917, suspendues puis reprises en janvier 1918, entre Trotsky et le grand état-major allemand, les négociations de Brest-Litovsk marquent la fin de la guerre russo-allemande. Par ce traité draconien, la Russie renonce à la Pologne, à la Lituanie, à l'Estonie, à la Lettonie et à l'Ukraine. Elle se trouve chassée de la Baltique et de la mer Noire. Toute l'oeuvre de Pierre le Grand et de Catherine II est anéantie.
Pour les Empires centraux, le traité est un succès considérable: il ouvre aux cent cinquante millions d'habitants de l'Europe centrale, affamés par le blocus des Alliés, les prodigieuses réserves de blé du grenier ukrainien, ainsi que le coton, le manganèse et le pétrole du Caucase. Enfin, il permet à Ludendorff de concentrer toutes ses forces sur le front d'Occident.
Le 28 mars 1918, les divisions austro-allemandes se mettent en marche vers l'Est, chassent devant elles les formations soviétiques, mais leur avance est ralentie par l'opposition des gouvernements de paysans ukrainiens, travaillés en sous-main par des agitateurs anarchistes. Le 5 mai, les Cosaques du Don font à leur tour appel à la protection allemande. Mais le général Hoffmann qui dirige l'opération s'y refuse, craignant que l'affaire ne prenne trop d'extension. "Il fallait bien, écrit-il, mettre un terme à notre avance."


L'hetman Skoropadski

Entre-temps, la Rada est rentrée à Kiev, où elle a ratifié le traité de Brest-Litovsk (23 avril). Mais les autorités allemandes, ne la trouvant pas assez docile à leurs suggestions, et n'ayant plus besoin d'elle, la dissolvent. A sa place, ils créent une République nationale ukrainienne, à la tête de laquelle ils hissent un certain Skoropadski, qui prend le titre d'hetman. L'Ukraine devient un protectorat militaire allemand.
Aux termes du traité, l'Ukraine doit fournir aux Empires centraux un million de tonnes de céréales. Cependant, les paysans refusent de livrer leurs réserves. Il faut avoir recours aux réquisitions à main armée. Même celles-ci donnent des résultats décevants. Il faudrait augmenter les effectifs à trois cent mille hommes, ce qui est impossible, toutes les forces allemandes étant concentrées sur le front occidental.
Dès le mois de juin, une effervescence insolite se manifeste sur plusieurs points du territoire. Une explosion détruit l'arsenal de Kiev. Le 30 juillet, le maréchal von Eichhorn qui commande les troupes allemandes est assassiné par le socialiste révolutionnaire Donskoj. Vers la mi-août, on commence à entrevoir la banqueroute de l'expédition.


La débacle et le reflux des armées allemandes de l'Est

( inclusion d'une phrase de 6 chapitres plus loin -> ) les paysans anarchistes ukrainiens, disséminés dans la steppe orientale, donnent bien du fil à retordre aux armées d'occupation allemandes. ( <- )
Vers le 15 septembre, l'armée bulgare est vaincue par le maréchal Franchet d'Esperey. Les arrières de l'occupation sont menacées. La propagande bolchevique s'intensifie parmi les troupes allemandes. La discipline se relâche. Les unités autrichiennes de la garnison d'Odessa se mutinent. Le 21 octobre, la Turquie signe une paix séparée, permettant à l'Entente de prendre pied dans la mer Noire. Quelques jours plus tard, l'Autriche en fait de même. Sur le front Ouest, la retraite allemande est amorcée sur toute la ligne. Le 9 novembre, des émeutes éclatent à Kiev, à Wilhelmshaven, à Hambourg. La révolution gronde à Berlin, à Munich, à Vienne, à Budapest. Le 11 novembre, l'Allemagne dépose les armes. Le même jour, le commandant en chef du front Est donne l'ordre d'évacuer l'Ukraine.
Ne pouvant passer par la Roumanie, qui s'est jointe aux Alliés, ni par la Pologne qu'occupent les légionnaires de Pilsudski, les divisions allemandes doivent faire un détour immense vers le Nord et regagner leur pays par la Courlande (Lettonie de l'Ouest) et la Lituanie.
Pour la troisième fois dans l'histoire, après Charles XII et Napoléon, on voit une armée d'invasion refluer vers l'Ouest, au coeur de l'hiver. (...) Les soldats de la garnison de Kharkov fraternisent avec les révolutionnaires et désarment leurs officiers. Désespéré, le général allemand qui commande la place veut se mettre en marche à travers la steppe, pour regagner l'Allemagne à pied, au milieu d'une tempête de neige...
Les troupes n'ont plus de souliers, plus de capotes, plus de munitions. Attaquées par les formations bolcheviques qui s'enhardissent de plus en plus, et par les groupes de paysans qui les assaillent à coup de fourche, elles poursuivent, jour après jour, leur marche interminable. Vers la fin février, les derniers contingents allemands ont évacué la Russie.

czert2
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Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:31 am

Kev_uk wrote:But you could also argue, that without Brest-Litovsk, the Revolution would have continued another conflict with Germany. Germany needed the treaty to divert troops to France and Belgium, because they were loosing. I do not think that Germany either wanted more conflict with the Eastern Front...they needed the peace, and it was a necessary concession the Bolsheviks to continue their program.
I do not think it is historical that this should be allowed, even with a hypothetical scenario. As PhilThib says, we have the Drang scenario to do this.

I play Clovis' Fatal Year mod presently, this is a really interesting mod. Much more 'fun' and challenging. But I also would love more developments from Sep Reds too. The stock campaign is good as well. Please dont neglect this title...


that allways confused me, why bolshevicks/soviets agreed to that bad peace for them ? they must know that any posible victory on east will be usless for them if they lose on west. They should try to negotiate much more favored terms for them.

czert2
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Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:40 am

Kev_uk wrote:Yes true. But also Germans allowed Lenin back into Russia with the sealed train, to cause discontent with Russia.

But we have Drang? I do not think Reds could have fought a combined White and German war at all. They would have lost. It is hard enough to play reds from 1918 up until late 1919 when you start getting the WSU, conscripts and money to build up a force strong enough to counter the whites. With German, it would crumble.

If the German revolution had won then...well...that is a History 'what-if'. Interesting however. Really.

No I did not mean you Eriss, I meant sep reds and Phillipe. Its a really good game. The true meaning of a historical wargame.


it is urban legend that lenin was smugled to russia in sealed train, truth is much more plain - he traveled here in normal passanger train, and as passanger, only with fake documents made by germans.
and one think comes to mind when he was relesed from germany and send to russia to cause disconent and sign bad peace for russians if he will be in power. so yes, that lenin in that theory will be german agent. if it is only speculation based on his later actions or truth waiting for confrimination by some evidence (most likely destoyed if ever existed) is up to anyone to decide.
and no one told that reds must befigting against jerrys alone - whites and reds should do united front agaisnt common enemy - germans. Same as chinese did against 1937 against japanese. only to start civil war again once they were defeated/surrendered.

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ERISS
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Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:57 am

Next would be a NoTreaty!DLC to continue the big campaign what-ifs in RUS-Gold?
Maybe for a RUS-Platinum?,
as it finally seems there are ideas (Andatiep thinkings) for work as big as for the Gold
(who will follow on must-refresh Andatiep?:cuit :) , I thought it could be big, but I didn't think it should be so big!

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