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NY Rangers
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:26 am

Rafiki wrote:Possibly. I'm not in a position to evaluate that; others closer to RUS development are better suited for that.

I do have to admit, though, that when the criticism gets packaged in self-glorification and the deprecation of others, the quality that criticism carries to me plummets. That's my problem here, not any valid criticism he may or may not have about the game, which in any case gets drowned out in the bile :bonk:


Well, that is the problem. If you do not know what he is criticizing about, it is easy to label it is as self-glorification, deprecation and what ever. The style may not to everyone's liking, but the issues are valid: why are the patches not tested before release, and why is AI development neglected when the tools are there?

PJJ
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:26 am

I don't post here often, but I own all the AGEOD games except Pride of Nations, and I really like them all. Revolution Under Siege is my favourite, in addition to Wars in America.

However, I've noticed the problems you seem to be having with the making and especially testing of patches. It definitely hurts your reputation among your customers when a long-awaited patch breaks the game, and is rapidly followed by new patches that fix one thing and break others. There's obviously something wrong with your testing process - maybe you don't have enough time or professional QA people working with you?

I don't want to insult anybody, I'm just hoping you'd pay some more attention to this problem. I understand you have limited resources, but you still have an obligation as a company toward your customers to provide them with products that work as advertised.

You make excellent wargames and I'd like to see you stay in business for a long time to come. :)

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Rafiki
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:22 pm

NY Rangers wrote:Well, that is the problem. If you do not know what he is criticizing about, it is easy to label it is as self-glorification, deprecation and what ever.

A valid point, but when I'm saying I won't be the one evaluating it, I'm still able to form an opinion on the things he says :)

Keep in mind; I'm addressing the form the criticism is made in. Having been here a while and seen a few of Clovis' posts gives good context for reading the posts he's making now. ;)
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Seb
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:29 pm

NY Rangers wrote:Well, that is the problem. If you do not know what he is criticizing about, it is easy to label it is as self-glorification, deprecation and what ever. The style may not to everyone's liking, but the issues are valid: why are the patches not tested before release, and why is AI development neglected when the tools are there?


It's more complicated, there are 2 different things. The depreciation is real, and more than that, but this is not the place to talk about it.

About the patch testing, our lack of time is the reason why we tried to proceed by beta-patch (explaining : "this is beta, please help us report the bugs"). But it didn't seem to work, as the bugs there were used by some users to depreciate the game (and to Athens great enjoyment).

I suppose our mistake was to try to continue to bring improvement while we obviously don't have ressources to do so. We should just stabilize the game and claim : "Now it's over". According to the sells and to some user's guerilla against RUS, trying to improve it further is a waste of time.
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NY Rangers
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:59 pm

Seb wrote:It's more complicated, there are 2 different things. The depreciation is real, and more than that, but this is not the place to talk about it.

About the patch testing, our lack of time is the reason why we tried to proceed by beta-patch (explaining : "this is beta, please help us report the bugs"). But it didn't seem to work, as the bugs there were used by some users to depreciate the game (and to Athens great enjoyment).

I suppose our mistake was to try to continue to bring improvement while we obviously don't have ressources to do so. We should just stabilize the game and claim : "Now it's over". According to the sells and to some user's guerilla against RUS, trying to improve it further is a waste of time.


Regarding resources, don't you even have one tester who could check any beta patches for the most obvious bugs? That is, to play it a few turns before release.

Oh, and we are discussing official RUS-patches here, not any beta ones. If developers cannot see the difference between patches and games what hope do we customers have regarding RUS? :confused:

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Nikel
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:07 pm

Seb wrote:According to the sells...



Oh, I guessed it was that, what a pity... :(


But I hope this will not stop you from creating a new game :)

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Rafiki
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:09 pm

Nikel wrote:But I hope this will not stop you from creating a new game :)

At the very least, it has provided much useful experience for future endeavors :)
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:13 pm

But the (low ?) sells of RUS maybe also a consequence of the relative lack of (good) post-release support, compounded by the apparently "small kids" falling out of the team that set out to develop RUS... :tournepas

But the relative lack of active support lately for non-PoN Ageod games is, I am afraid, hurting Ageod reputation, indeed... :(

The intense support and discussion surrounding AACW post-release was surely something to remember :cool:

Regards

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NY Rangers
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:16 pm

I'd like to add that...

Seb wrote:According to the sells and to some user's guerilla against RUS, trying to improve it further is a waste of time.


Sales may be the biggest problem, for sure, but the "guerilla [war] against RUS" seems to me like a genuine effort to improve the game while the developers don't give a flying fcuk. Fortunately I don't know anything about the obvious personality clashes behind this strange development.

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Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:47 pm

The clash (I guess again) seems to me the following:


After a pair of years of development (a lot of time and also money invested to pay the artist and AGEod), the sales of the game you have created do not fill the expectations... :(


Clovis was not part of this team, but after release he joined the support and in fact was the most active post release supporter, also improving the AI. He is very active, passionate and enthusiast, as we all know ;) and after some time he realizes he is supporting the game nearly alone due to the disappointment and lack of time of the original team. It is not a problem of money of course, he doesn't need it and apparently can dedicate a lot of time to mod (retired? rich?). Clovis disappointment with the team is in the lack of enthusiasm, so finally the new post release team is broken and starts a war, in which only Clovis is interested, seems some kind of revenge that I do not understand (probably I am missing something...)

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Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:57 pm

It would be a shame if the development of RUS was completely abandoned. In my humble opinion, it's the most interesting game available here. Maybe the sales are bad because it's not about an American conflict, I don't know. Are the Americans the biggest supporters of wargames?

But if RUS were abandoned with serious bugs still remaining, it would be very unfortunate. Not uncommon with computer games, of course, but still very unfortunate. And as much as I like all AGEOD engine games, I'd be much more careful in the future when purchasing such games, if the developer had a history of completely abandoning their products and leaving them unfinished.

I very much hope that will not happen now or later.

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ERISS
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:02 pm

Seb wrote:The depreciation is real, and more than that

:D
NY Rangers wrote:Fortunately I don't know anything about the obvious personality clashes behind this strange development.

Yeay, how fortunate you are.. :)

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NY Rangers
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:18 pm

Thanks Nikel for the info, although I prefer not to know any details of a soap opera. :D

Maybe a deal can be done with Matrix Games? They have bought rights to older games, and improved and supported them before. They sell this game via their site already...

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Nikel
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:24 pm

No info, just speculation ;)

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Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:31 pm

Nikel wrote:The clash (I guess again) seems to me the following:


After a pair of years of development (a lot of time and also money invested to pay the artist and AGEod), the sales of the game you have created do not fill the expectations... :(


Clovis was not part of this team, but after release he joined the support and in fact was the most active post release supporter, also improving the AI. He is very active, passionate and enthusiast, as we all know ;) and after some time he realizes he is supporting the game nearly alone due to the disappointment and lack of time of the original team. It is not a problem of money of course, he doesn't need it and apparently can dedicate a lot of time to mod (retired? rich?). Clovis disappointment with the team is in the lack of enthusiasm, so finally the new post release team is broken and starts a war, in which only Clovis is interested, seems some kind of revenge that I do not understand (probably I am missing something...)


...but what a great soap-opera this would give (couple it with the "revenge of the mad coordinator") and it would be a real block-buster :mdr:

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Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:32 pm

Perhaps we as customers should cut the SEPRUS team some slack:

1) True, patching was at times slow and there were some patches recently that introduced new problems but the overall direction is good. RUS is improving.

2) As far as I know the SEPRUS team had never developped a computer game before. Starting a new venture, mistakes are natural. And it certainly doesn't get easier when the team is limited to working work part-time on a project of this scope. That said they accomplished an incredible feat.

3) In my humble opinion, RUS is the best AGE game to date. While it has some annoying bugs, its overall conception is excellent and able to simulate the Russian Civil War far more accurately than the famous ACW does with the 1861-65 war. RoP with its flawed and unpatched replacement system or NCP with its lack of a Grand Campaign are far behind.

4) I believe Athens would agree with my third point. Otherwise, he wouldn't invest this much time into this game. ;) And I am sure he would also admit that bugs are a natural part of game developpment (the last time I tried his mod some months back, it had some pretty obvious bugs).

Seb wrote: I suppose our mistake was to try to continue to bring improvement while we obviously don't have ressources to do so. We should just stabilize the game and claim : "Now it's over". According to the sells and to some user's guerilla against RUS, trying to improve it further is a waste of time.


That would be truely sad, but I would understand.

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Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:37 pm

Franciscus wrote:...but what a great soap-opera this would give (couple it with the "revenge of the mad coordinator") and it would be a real block-buster :mdr:


If I didn't care about RUS I would thouroughly enjoy it. I would lean back on my couch, grab some pop-corn and wait for the next episode. :mdr:

Unfortunately, I do care which makes this a very painful process to watch. Just imagine what SEPRUS and Clovis/Athens could have accomplished if they had continued to work together. :p leure:

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Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:38 pm

Franciscus wrote: the "revenge of the mad coordinator")


:D :mdr:

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Seb
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:19 pm

Nikel wrote:Clovis was not part of this team, but after release he joined the support and in fact was the most active post release supporter, also improving the AI. He is very active, passionate and enthusiast, as we all know ;) and after some time he realizes he is supporting the game nearly alone due to the disappointment and lack of time of the original team. It is not a problem of money of course, he doesn't need it and apparently can dedicate a lot of time to mod (retired? rich?). Clovis disappointment with the team is in the lack of enthusiasm, so finally the new post release team is broken and starts a war, in which only Clovis is interested, seems some kind of revenge that I do not understand (probably I am missing something...)


Nice scenario, but this is not what happened. And no, I won't give more details about this ridiculous soap opera.

PJJ wrote:But if RUS were abandoned with serious bugs still remaining, it would be very unfortunate. Not uncommon with computer games, of course, but still very unfortunate. And as much as I like all AGEOD engine games, I'd be much more careful in the future when purchasing such games, if the developer had a history of completely abandoning their products and leaving them unfinished.


Well... RUS is not "abandoned"... it has been released 6 months ago. We have patched it several times and we will continue to patch it as long as we find bugs (patch 1.04 is on the way - should be ready in september).
To conclude, we have made the game we had in mind and we consider it's finished, except from bug correction. So ok, we won't bring new features in the years to come, but I don't think this mean it is "abandoned".
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:44 pm

Well.. whether he is rich or poor in this scenario written, Clovis thought about some unpredictable random revolt conditions for green peasants against White,Red menace AFAIK. :-) .
And unlike rebellious "King moderator" he was mostly polite about the words he choose when replying to players. But why was he not backed up? We all want not to harm Ageod but as he wrote in his blog/forum ,why didnt the team didnt use some of his propositions about AI scripts or other in even PON?
I feel the same as Seb game is nearly in good shape except some corrections in Drang scenario maybe. Some delay in patching maybe related for waiting correct "exe". Thanks for making this game :)

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NY Rangers
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:10 pm

Baris wrote:But why was he not backed up? We all want not to harm Ageod but as he wrote in his blog/forum ,why didnt the team didnt use some of his propositions about AI scripts or other in even PON?


Good question. It seems really odd that there's one person capable of improving any AGEOD title, but there's absolutely no co-operation with the devs at the moment.

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Nikel
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:20 pm

Seb wrote:Nice scenario, but this is not what happened. And no, I won't give more details about this ridiculous soap opera.




No bad intention when posted that, the contrary :hat:

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Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:24 pm

Nikel wrote:No bad intention when posted that, the contrary :hat:


No prob ;)
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:24 pm

NY Rangers wrote:Good question. It seems really odd that there's one person capable of improving any AGEOD title, but there's absolutely no co-operation with the devs at the moment.


+1

Anyway his resilience seems to be infinite and he continues in his exile blog, so the loss to AGEod is less noticeable, but it is nevertheless a great loss :blink:

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Seb
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:33 pm

Edit : Ok, nevermind...
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NY Rangers
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:38 pm

Let me guess: Clovis turned out to be a looney? He is still very productive though. :w00t:

Baris
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Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:58 pm

By "not backed up" I mean, he could be in the team for Ageod not (necessarily in SEPRUS) and his experience about AI scripts could be evaluated in any Ageod game. There could be some language barriers :) :bonk:
RUS is excellent game no doubt. And that is unfortunate there is a separation in the team. But in any way thanks for your's and Clovis's work. :)

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Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:02 am

NY Rangers wrote:Let me guess: Clovis turned out to be a looney? He is still very productive though. :w00t:


Loony might be a little strong. Somewhat touchy. He's got a lot to contribute though.
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berto
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Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:29 pm

PJJ wrote:It would be a shame if the development of RUS was completely abandoned...

But if RUS were abandoned with serious bugs still remaining, it would be very unfortunate. Not uncommon with computer games, of course, but still very unfortunate. And as much as I like all AGEOD engine games, I'd be much more careful in the future when purchasing such games, if the developer had a history of completely abandoning their products and leaving them unfinished.

I very much hope that will not happen now or later.

I am working with AGEOD staff and a few beta team members on a major new QA project. This is already showing much promise finding errors in the PON data sets. These new QA tools and techniques are coded and implemented in a general way, thus are readily applicable to all AGE engine games.

There is reason to believe these new QA initiatives will show good results in uncovering RUS data errors also. I expect to review the RUS data sets within a week or two (and as an ongoing project into the future). Of course, I will share my findings with the RUS dev and beta teams.

No, RUS is not being abandoned, or neglected. Do not lose hope. Work on improving RUS continues!
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Baris
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Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:39 pm

No secret that , I think in Drang scenario there is some work to be done about requisiton of Reds in their territories which are locked in game. And I really would like Basmachi revolt event(there should be low loyalty in that scenario in the begginning fro western turkistan steppes,Kazakh steppes and maybe Kazan(Possibility to form Ural-İdil state).(Cities could be under control by exchanging population but rural ares should have low loyalty) But the team said we wont add features to the game further. :(

Edit: Germany would most possibly support autonom/independent states in Ural until Reds defeated in the alternative scenario. It will fit German politics in that time frame.

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