Athens wrote:Let's go...
Komuch: something is profondly wrong in the idea Komuch had a chance to survive. the sad truth is the Komuch was made of the most honest and democratic fraction of the political class of Russia, but they get from people no support. No support at all. Not because bolsheviks won quickly over Komuch or because Whites let them agonize. Bolsheviks won easily because Komuch had no troops, no support and their defeat, apart in the SR ranks, was mourned by none. They were unfortunatly not sufficiently revolutionarty for peasants and workers by delaying any real social reform after the end of the civil war, and they were too revolutionary for the middle-class because they wanted to introduce social reforms after their victory. In civil war, you need one enemy, not 2.
Komuch chance was the Czech incident and support. But even this support was limited as Czech troops began to show signs of weariness from September 18.
So in any case, the probability of a democratic directory is about 0. What is possible in historical terms is a larger influence in the White movement, made possible by a slighter better armed resistance at first, but too by a more enlightened White politic.
Nice historical summary of the situation for newcomers, but i don't see why you didn't post it on the dedicated Historical forum but here.
The only sad truth is that you believe that the probability 0 does exist, which could be a deep limitation for your personnal scientific and philosophical developpement.
Besides this, the mini-MOD simulate exactly what you said : "a larger influence [of the democratic liberal and socialist civil power] in the White movement, made possible by a slighter better armed resistance at first, but too by a more enlightened White politic."
But after all, it add the possibility in the game that the RED player don't succeed to erase the Komouch before it could became the official civil political power of the White factions, mostly thanks to the support of the Allied High Command. And it simulate the consequences of such a historical fiction, which is the purpose of such a game.
Athens wrote:"Mini-MOD "Foreign recognitions & alliances"
Conclusion: Denikin, Kolchak were both mad and dumb when anyone claimed the necessity to ally with ethnic minorities among White ranks...
Back to history:
RealPolitik is unfortunatly always discarded by the masses who prefer good old nationalist or political passions.
Is it possible sometimes to speak with you as a human born with equal rights and abilities in History or you will always communicate with us in this forums like a divinity ?
Your sentence about Realpolitik is a philosophical opinion, not a historical analysis.
There is no evidences that the russian masses (so the peaseants) were ultranationalist in 1917. Maybe a bit in 1914. But in 1917, surely not. The "October Revolution" and the fact that the Kerenski government which decided to continue the WWI didn't got any popular support during this Coup is a perfect demonstration of this evaluation.
Keeping the Empire of the Tsar was not a priority of the majority of the people during the RCW, whatever was the factions it belongs to.
Athens wrote:When they were politized, White soldiers backed up their engagment to nationalism and were fighting to restauring Russia in the 1914 frontiers. When they were not politized, and only soldiers of fortune in an unfortunate civil war, White soldiers were just as racist ot at least chauvinistic than common people under any latitude at any time. being Russians, they shouldn't care about the political advantage to abandon territories rules by Russia.
We actually don't speak here about the first wave of white volunteers who was mostly "politicized" nationalists. We care here about the masses of the peaseants that made the majority of the largest faction's armies (and this even don't include the very less motivated peaseants which were enroled by force and which priority was anyway to escape from this fight and go home).
The question here is not that the peasants willing to fight in the white armies did or not care on the wide "political" advantages to abandon those territories, but that they first concretely did care of their own local regions to be free from the Reds and that there is no reasons that their moral and value in combat in the battlefield can decrease by 45% just because their white leaders "gave up" some remote non-russian speaking territories, and especially if they ally after all with them and get their support against the Reds, with the benediction of the Western powers with their war fournitures.
Athens wrote:Best point: War against Poles in 1920 surprised Bolsheviks by the sudden raise of a real even if limited nationalist support for war, prefiguring the rise of nationalism which saved Stalin in 1941. Voluntary enlistment was better and motivated not by the desire to expand the Revolution to world, a dream shared by an handful of red intellectuals( Stalin being interestingly much more cautious about as better linked to popular feelings). Behind Brusilov commitment, many jsut fought against Poles for russian nationalist motives.
So in any case, any Enlightened White politics about minorities can't be based on the assertion it would have been popular.
I'm not sure it is your best point : War against Poles generated patriotism in central russia and bielorussia just because the Bolchevik propaganda said the Poles did first attack and invade russian territories like polish nobility did during the middle age (which was mostly true).
Finally, i don't see why we speak about the patriotic feelings among the red troops at this period when we are supposed to speak on the link between the white troops' moral and the independences recognition...
These mini-mods are presented as destined for PBEM. Fine. But for 2 players PBEM or only 3 players PBEM?
Conclusion: PBEM with these rules only when the 3 playable factions are under player rule. Any AI with such an addition of penalties will crumble shortly.
You could have save the time to list all the IA "bugs" for mini-MODs that are designed for PBEM. I never criticized your quest to improve the IA, so i don't see why you spend time to argue on PBEM MODs. If you like some, just adapt it to the IA if you feel you can, if you don't like it, please don't demonstrate that it is shit just because it don't care of the IA.
But thanks to your post i did noted that the mini-MODs' page are maybe not enough presented like PBEM-only MODs. It need to be more clear.
Baris wrote:Ex: Terek cossacks or some other types were not originally from Caucasia. They were brought to Caucasia as an assimilation plan by the Tzar. Like other cossacks and Rus peasants migration to Turkestan/central asia to take natives land/farms. They should be very much racist or extreme nationalist. From this environment it should be difficult to gain support for Komuch and other democrat movements. And they should be less willingly support alliances with minor nations.
And what about the Don & Kuban cossacks and the minorities like the Bakshir which were asking for more autonomy and slow or stop their support to the white Cause because of the White conservative leadership ?
And anyway what are few cossacks and minorities when the Whites did need after all to gather huge quantity of russian peaseants to really challenge the red army in the second part of the war...
Athens wrote:Linking strictly the loyalty and conscription /requisition has no historical roots. [...]
??? Are you serious ?? I think till you're in such a state of mind, we will never have the same historical roots, so i prefer don't debate this obvious point.
Athens wrote:"Their Western allies were certainly encouraging them to make more democratic reforms in order to appeal to the masses. This scenario presumes that the White military leadership took their advice."
Seems to me unplausible. Brits gave Kolchak and Denikin much support than they gave to pidulski or Balts who were at this time closer to our current definition of democracy...
The chronology should be recalled. Janin was appointed as Allied High Command in all Russia by London and Paris. His personnal political view was close to the Komouch. If he would have arrived in Russia before the Directory or Kolchak's Coup, he would have supported the Komouch as the civil political white leadership. And Paris and London would have been fine with it later because the remaining National Assembly would give a legitimity to their intervention in Russia.
In this conditions, there would be much less probability that a military coup happen in Siberia and that the white military leadership stop any diplomatic options towards independences/new allies or social reforms towards peasants.
This option is enough plausible to be playable.
Brits military advisors in Omsk supported Kolchak because Janin was not yet there, because they believe it would improve the army organization and because they didn't understood the RCW political problems. There is no evidences that London gave them orders to organize such a Coup, but once it is done and Janin dismissed as Allied High Command because of the Kolchak's Coup
, then of course the Brits supported it later by pragmatism. I don't see where is the relationship with the Komouch in your sentence, but as you probably know it, Brits did supported Pilsudski and the Baltic states too, but don't need to do it a lot since both got already an enormous support from France and Germany.
Why are you always complaining again and again on the SEPRUS services in any kind of threads around more than needed ? I would understand it from a newcomer expecting some perfect product, but you are a big boy now, who perfectly know the limits of the project. Maybe you enjoy a world of discord in which you can shine, but i still hope that one day you will look to build together or at least to work peacefully alone.
For AI, ( when SEPRUS will be able to deliver a real working official patch
) RUS will be a 3 factions game: unbalancing AI for one is unbalancing the whole thing and PBEM with 2 players have to take into account AI to get better results. Facts are stubborn: you may consider AI definitly unable to play well, but in this case, RUS PBEM require 3 players, not 2
For the rest, back to winter in 1.02b. Russian winter, an essential feature.
A same Human player have always the possibility to play both Whites' factions.
I believe that the game should be played by two players, like in AACW, and i design the mini-MODs with this in mind. I never understood why there is two playable White factions (among ten of them), although it have maybe some advantages in the background code to balance and design the game.
I really can't see why a South White player would enjoy that an IA playing the Siberian corrupt its plans against a human Red opponent, when he can play both Whites. Some would say that it give to much power to the whites, but i would tell them to remember that their troops don't share supply and can't be merged, it's already a big handicap (which is BTW historically not very accurate...).