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andatiep
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Location: Grenoble, France.

RUS Wishlist

Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:38 pm

A wishlist thread for RUS


Here are some reports & suggestions from my current testing campaigns.

Nota Bene - Disclaimer : Newcomers with doubts on the game should assume that i personnally think that this game is already really good, is playable, is not full of bugs and will be even better and better... so what follow is not for them or for trolls looking for feeds :p
Although i agree that many things need to be done to improve the manual & guides for beginners and their translations.


If SEPRUS agree with any of this concept/proposals, i'm ready to help if you need volunteers (PM me)...


___________________________________________________________________

Political events & features :

The Komuch faction (mostly SR) and/or the promotion to High command of "pro-liberal-democratic" generals in each White faction (South, Siberian, North & North-West) should be a key for the Whites' players to get on a middle & long term a much better support from the peasants and from the western powers :


----------------------------

About the Komuch, i suggest that the end of the komuch faction should be declared only when all 4 of the main upper Volga towns fall (Samara, Saratov, Simbirsk & Kazan). Then it means :
- the Omsk Directory creation happen and trigger the Koltchak coup event as random (with 50% possibility each turn),
- no more Komuch units, leaders & replacements available,
- the Special Operation "Reform" in the ledger should not be anymore available for the Siberian White faction (Without "right" SR support, Whites loose their last bridge of communication with the peasant world which will really not trust them when/if they ever pretend to agrarian reforms),
- it set events with many strong desertions among the Komuch faction units (WH2 units)
- more conscripts to the Reds, since most of the Komuch leaders and their reamining infantry forces join the Reds, especially after Koltchak Coup.

Untill Komuch sub-faction, as a kind of russian republican provisionnal government & parliament, is still alive :
- Tchekish legion and Foreign intervention in Siberia evacuate much more later,
- It help a lot the promotion of Wrangel as a South White faction High Commander (and even more if there is a Rostov-Tsaritsine-Saratov-Samara-Omsk connexion established on the map, see after)
- The French-Greek fleet and expedionary corps in South Ukrainia (Odessa,...) stay much longer too.
- The event if Koltchak is killed (evt_nam_CMN_KolchakKilled) should of courses not decrease the Siberian White NM by 50...
- the Stavropol-on-Volga revolt event should not occure(evt_nam_Renforts_CMN_VolgaInsurrection). Volga area should still be subject to normal green revolt probability if Green faction get over 51% loyalty.

- BTW : the flag's faction in the game is maybe not the good one : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comit%C3%A9_des_membres_de_l%27Assembl%C3%A9e_constituante (and they were also using the Red flag...)



------------------------------

About the Koltchak Coup, i suggest :
- it happen randomly (with 50% possibility each turn) only if the Directory event happen, so if Komuch faction is no more (see above),
- it give more British support, better command & generals statistiques (but more corruption & hard occupant abilities) for White siberian faction, it really decrease the Tchekish, French & USA support (less units/replacements available, more locked units,
- it makes it impossible to Wrangel to be promoted High Command of the South Whites (Koltchak would always prefer a Denikin-like subordinate and oppose all possible alternative policies Wrangel may choose. So it makes the alliance with Finland & Baltic states or Ukrainia impossible until Wrangel is in High Command of the White cause (Koltchak and other "right" generals where opposed to give regional autonomy to non-russian peoples, as well as giving independance to Ukrainia, Baltic States & Finland),
- it increase Green & Red loyalty in Volga & Siberia areas,
- it creates local nationalists rebellions (green) east Oural if more than 51% green loyalty or Reds controled rebellion if more than 51% Reds loyalty (if the Reds reach it, investing in their historical "Nationalities policies" Propaganda, using the game's Propaganda regional decisions tool).



------------------------
About Wrangel :

Wrangel can be promoted as High Commander of the Whites with the same conditions like currently (South White faction NM should be <50), but :
- If the Komouch faction is still alive (and so if no Koltchak Coup happen) : the required NM value is <60.
- Till a connexion is established on the map between the South White and the Siberian White factions (Rostov <=> Tsaritsin <=> Saratov <=> Samara <=> Omsk) : the required NM value is <70.
- If Denikin is captured and executed or dead in fight : it is allowed without conditions.

Only Wrangel as High Commander of the south Whites should bring this new political options and feature :
- It allow the South White faction to use the Special Operation "Reform" in the ledger. There is no way that Denikin as High Commander could do it. He never even think about it...
- It allow the diplomatic options to be allied with the Baltic States and/or with Finland. Again, before with Denikin and later if Koltchak, it would never happen.
- It allow a niew diplomatic option : Till the polish-Ukrainian war occure (from november 1918 to july 1919) and if the Bolcheviks or the Whites/French occupy all Ukraine east from Kiev-Odessa line, the Ukrainian Nationalist may accept an agreement with Wrangel, the South White player could then ally with the Ukrainian Nationalist faction in Ukraine : Ukrainian faction became playable by WHI faction to fight Bolcheviks and anarchists in Ukraine. Of course it have similar but less NM & EP cost like being allied with the Baltic States or Finland.
I know there such an Option to ally with UKR as WHI in the file RUS F5 Diplomatic Options WHI-DOWs.sct, but it obviously don't works, in my campaign, i only could ally and play with the Baltic & Finland states, no options to do the same for Ukraine was proposed.
NB : If still not established in early 1920, this alliance should not be anymore available, since Poland will get the Ukrainian alliance, like in the History, just before Poland attack Russia.



---------------------
About Janin :

If the Koltchak Coup happen before the appointed Russia's Allied High Command general Janin arrive in Omsk, Janin refuse to take its command of all the allied forces in Russia and he stick to its last mission which was to coordinate the Tchekish Legion evacuation (so he should not be a field officer able to command forces in the game like currently but a "political" leader like the Lenin unit). He would never lead White siberian forces like it is possible now in the game (and especially Koltchak's troops after its Coup...), I mean : even the British don't have Leaders in Siberia to lead Whites divisions and they were much more involved than Janin ... ;)
I would let him only few special abilities like the military advisors units and merge it in the Tchekish garrison along the transiberian railroad.

If the Koltchak Coup still don't happen when Janin arrive in Omsk :
- He should then be able to lead freely foreign-only troops in Siberia, like the British leaders in Mourmansk & Arkangelsk.
- he would support for sure the Komuch parliament/government or even the Directory leaded by the "republican" general Boldyrev if already created. Since Janin was send as the High Allied Command in Russia, Koltchak Coup should not may happen anymore in the game because even "right" white generals admitted they need foreign help (pro-Koltchak British advisors may not listen to Janin as usual but would not oppose to him and support a Coup if he is there, especially without clear orders from London for a Coup, which never existed).
- All the events like "evt_nam_WH3_JaninDoubleFace", which decrease everywhere all the siberian White troops cohesion, should not happen anymore (BTW i think this events are not fair, since they probably give a role Janin had never enough power to play).



----------------------------------------
About White factions getting closed

Till there is connexions established on the map in 1918 between the South White and the Siberian White factions (Arkangelsk <=> Kotlas <=> Perm <=> Omsk and Rostov <=> Tsaritsin <=> Saratov <=> Samara <=> Omsk), it should increase their political unity and give them advantages, as well as changing major geopolitical facts :
- It should give more EP & NM to the Whites
- It should help the promotion of Wrangel as High commander.
- If Komuch sub-faction is still alive, it get politically stronger (more linked with the western liberal democracies via Black Sea) : maybe more logistic support (WS, Money, Supply and its first artillery units), and after all if White controled, Tsaritsin is added to the list of the 4 Volga towns the Reds should controled to "kill" the Komuch sub-faction.
- It delay the evacuation of all the foreign interventions.
- If the Tchekish legion is still in Volga area, it concentrate its forces there instead of all along the transiberian and start to evacuate via Tsaritsin & the Black Sea or via Kotlas & Arkangelsk, according to the connexions established, instead of all along the transiberian railroad.
- No more Tchekish in Siberia from 1919 will change the linked events (later if Koltchak is High Commander after its Coup, he have less chance to be arrested and executed, Transsiberian railroad defenses are much weak, US troops leave immediatly Vladivostok, etc.)



-----------------------------------
About ruling the country side

To improve the fact that the country side should be controled to get food, fournitures & conscripts (not only the towns and the railroads axes inbetween like currently played) :

- Regional policies in the ledger (F7) should be available only when a player control (51+% MC) more than 2/3 of the area's regions. A mouse cursor information explaining why a player still can't performe a regional policy should pop in the ledger (F7).

- The green & anarchist faction AI should focus on occupying all the empty regions of an area (so it should avoid to attack non-little forces they see). It should be made up with partisan-only units/forces which use ambush order systematically and do not need supply (not only regular or milicias units with supply chariots which make them so visible like now). This should force the players to fight around the Greens/Blacks in the country side if they really want to realize any regional policies (conscription, reforms, repression, etc.).
In my GC, all the anarchists died. I never meet them with the whites till july 1919, then i switch the sides and i took the reds but i have still no anarchists faction in my hands, although i can choose the option "Stop alliance with the anarchists" in the ledger. It's like if they never had been there. About the topic, i said also before : "As soon as the Melitopol div. pop up, we can order it to march to the anarchist depot of Huliaipole, which is empty of defenders. No Makhno army in late january 1919 ? Although the event which annonce the arrival of the Tachankas warfare from the anarchists in the game..."
The Green, Anarchist & Ukrainian factions need also a good realistic AI, because it concern also PBEM players which need it (yes, i speech for my selfish cause...), but i understand it's maybe not a priority.
So i will suggest at least something simple and efficient : this factions should get only units which never need supply.

- Military Control should increase automatically by 1% each turn to the faction which have more than 80% loyalty in a region. This simulate the local scale civil war activities in a region.

- The food should not be produced only in towns (which is absurd, especially in the Russian Civil War, were the struggle for the urban people to get food was amazing and explain why the Bolcheviks had to organize regular food expeditionary brigades to the country side) : i suggest that only each clear/woods/prairies region (including the ones with towns) should give few food production points. That's all. Then players really have to care of the food regions. I suppose the current Supply system will still work, towns gathering the food from around and if with depots, sending it elsewere.



-------------------------------------
About the Frenchies in the South

- The French-Greek expeditionary corps arrive in front of Odessa only in march 1919 : according to the biography of its generals, this corps arrived in Odessa in december 1918... and leave in april 1919 as soon as the Red army arrived in a neighboring region to avoid mutinery among its troops. During this short time they pushed away the local Reds along the sea coast, but in the game, Odessa and all Ukrainia is occupied by the nationalist ukrainians, so the player can use, probably not in a realistic way, this foreign forces in a deep big campaign against the Ukrainian faction instead of the Reds which are not here at all (as well as the anarchist faction which let empty its 2 depots of West & East Ukrainia and which forces i never meet at all, as a South White player)...
As Red player, i even face French Corps in Tula, i stoped playing before they entered in Moscow... which is not realistic of courses (or it means radical alternate historical conditions, like a still alive Komuch government supported by the French government and a still there Tchekish legion on the field. Even with that, most of the "Front d'Orient" French soldiers wouldn't accept to go deep in Russian territory after already 4 years of WWI spend OUTSIDE France in the Balkans...).
Maybe it would be better to pop up the French & Greek forces only in the 3-4 locations they landed and then lock them in this regions, and remove them according to other events. And all Ukrainian Nationalist units in this locations should be moved elsewhere.
See here for more details : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_War_of_Independence#Resumed_hostilities.2C_1919

- Berthelot Corps was not in Ukraine or Russia like in the game most of this times ...but in Hungaria. There could be also a simulation of the Revolution in the Hungaria region during the year 1919 (with a high strategic value there, the Red player could care of Communist Hungaria and the White player the French Corps (Romania territory is open but Romanian troops stay locked. The White South Russian player could then choose to engage there its Berthelot French Corps (to get Hungaria objective and/or not to loose Roumanian objectives) ...and use it later freely in Ukrainia if he finished the job before end summer 1919. Or send it directly to Ukrainia and give up with Hungaria, with a very high EP/foreign help cost..., but he would then get an unlocked French Corps able to go deeper in Ukrainia.
It could be also an interesting challenge for the Red player to try to help the Hungarian revolution...

- Finally, all French-Greek reinforcements arriving could be unlocked but theyshould get regular mutiny random events which block them (like evt_nam_WHI_French&GreekMutinery) and it should be also very strong desertion events if they ever go out from Ukraine (like evt_nam_RED_RedArmyDeserters).



-------------------
About the transiberian railroad

- It would be interesting if each railroad region between Omsk & Vladivostok get a VP value (1 or 2) to push the partizan to cut the railroad and give a reason to the White garrison to clean between the stations. Except to drive fiew bonus supply units coming from Vladivostok, the white player currently don't care if the railroad is cut or not.



-------------------------------------
About early ammunition production

I read that the Reds had huge problems of ammunition production during the year 1919, they had sometimes to move back whole corps/front because of that. Maybe it could be nice to have 2 events opening and closing this period were the Reds controled towns would get a very low ammo production ? So the player have to try to save and spend carefully the number of battles he starts.
The Whites depend also totally on the foreign help, not on local production.

To simulate this, i would remove all ammo production in the towns of the map, except some in the fiew big main towns.
- When players build manufactures in the options' ledger, they will get WS and now much more ammo production there.
- When Foreign interventions arrive, all their usual coastal towns they control will get ammo production. It will also show much better the strategic control of the transiberian railroad supply line for the Siberian White faction.



-------------------------------------
About ghost events

All the events which stay unknowned by the players are useless and bring them confusion and more difficulties to understand the rules !!

This events should be removed or should have a proper displayed event information during the game :
- evt_nam_RED_LoseVPWHI (-10 VP if reds loose Ekaterinodar)
- evt_nam_RED_LoseVPWH3 (-10 VP if reds loose Omsk)
- all the events like evt_nam_WH3_JaninDoubleFace (-5 cohesion for all units in all theatre... common...i understand now why i was confused when trying to understand the abnormal changing cohesion of my units in my last game...)
- many options/events in the file RUS F3 Options Reinforcements.sct ( like evt_nam_RED_PartialMobilizationXXXX) never diplay the information that players get many different replacements added to the official hundreds of Conscripts (so players can't know that this policy is in fact much more interesting that is said) and after all, many times, the events' Conditions evaluate an amount of EP required which is superior to the amount of EP that is substract, so players won't understand why the option they choosed the turn before didn't activated...



-------------------------
About Lenin :

- Lenin assassination event (evt_nam_Flavor_CMN_LeninAssassination) is not a scientific fact, it should be random, as well as its results :
- it may happen from early 1918 till the end of the game (but not anymore again after it happen).
- If it not happen, the tcheka policy regional decisions shoud anyway be available at the end of the year 1918.
- if it happen, a random chance is he die, then the game should have an alternate scenario : what would be the consequences ? it could be :
- Reds loss 50 NM like in the current events where Lenin is captured and executed...
- a triumvirate with Trotski and other leader would be created, changing the leaders seniority order
- other consequences ?????



---------------------------

About Tcheka military units & Political Commissar units :

Tcheka military units were used mainly to food requisitions, police & fight against local rebellions, military police reducing the desertions in the Red army. So i would rather give them abilities which :
- improve their fighting values against all kind of green, black or whites partizans/irregular/milicias units.
- improve their police & patrol values to simulate their role to control a region (best used with the concept of food production extented to clear/prairies/Woods/ regions without towns).
- allow the regional decisions Tcheka Policy to be activate in the area were they are (if no Tcheka military units, no such policy could be implemented...).
- plus their current ability against desertion (BTW, how it is working ?)

The Political Commissar main role was more to control the military hierarchy and be sure they will follow the orders of the government, not to hunt deserteurs in the woods.
To not make a double feature with the Tcheka military units, i would remove the current ability against desertion the Commissar units share with the Tcheka military units and replace it with abilities which :
- improve the command capacity and/or the strategic/att/def values of the leader of the force were they are.
- stop a new feature which could randomly lock or delay the movment (like the ships in AACW) of a basic force without commissar. A solution to lock them a turn would be this event's code (but it need an other Attribute than the one here ("PoliticalUnit") only the Political Commissar would have... :

Code: Select all

SelectFaction = $RED
SelectRegion = $Moscow
StartEvent = evt_nam_RED_RedArmyPolitKoms|999|1|NULL|NULL|$Moscow|NULL

Conditions
  MinDate = 1917/12/01
  Probability = 50
  SelectSubUnits = Families $famRegular $famMilitia
  EvalSubUnitSel = NULL

Actions

  AlterCuSubUnits = ApplyToList;SetFixing 1;Attempts 1;SkipAttribs 100 *PoliticalUnit*
  DescEvent = evt_desc_RED_RedArmyPolitKoms

EndEvent

The 2 types of VOKhR units are supposed to be the "new model" police or prison/goulag camp guards. I'm not sure it is relevent to have it, considering the scale of the game (and the fact that goulag camps, like "white" pogroms, aren't simulated), but if you like it anyway it would be better to set it as garrison units (same movment penalty than fortress units) with same values like milicias except only a much bigger Police value. I would also give to them and to all the milicias units in the game a positive ability which works only when INSIDE the towns : to push the player to let them in this logical location for a police but also weakest because it's easy to trapp them inside the towns.
This will makes also more sens to buy VOKhR brigade type unit to get the both combinated abilities/features of Chekist lines unit and VOKhR battalion.


- Reds should also have a more limited amount of Political Commissar, VOKhR and Cheka military units, and it should have a political cost. Since it was most of them members of the Party, i suggest that all the ledger options "Party Members Join the Army" (in the file RUS F3 Options Reinforcements.sct) don't only give 50 basic conscripts anymore but increase also each time it is activated the number of this political units available in the unit building pool. This options should also cost also 20 VP each and some EP (many of this workers will die and it is the main political support of the Bolcheviks among the population).




--------------------------

Various reports :

- Check if after the end WWI demobilization events, it still not exist their Army unit & command (is the General Syrovy unit as Tchekish Army unit still there ? He's not listed in the event's code lines (evt_nam_WH3_CzechCMNDemobilizeA). It happen in my game that the Tchekish Legion army unit staid all the game, but i'm not sure if it's still runing like that after all the patches.

- When merging Tachankas unit in a combined unit, it don't change the value of Initiative of any units in the statistique board (the fire support ability says +1 initiative points for all elements of the unit). Is it WAD ?

- In my GC, i noted there were a Red naval force in front of Perm which survived on the icy river all the winter 1918-19, without any attrition and stoping all that time the crossing of earth forces (although it can't be attacked).

- there is problem with the number of days forces need to enter an icy river/lake/coastal region. It's far too much : sometimes it is much longer than going in the region wich is behind the river.

- Around march 1919, there is no more any North White replacements in the ledger (F2). Troops are getting in attrition.

- Early april event : 2 British armored car units appear in Persia, but from South White faction, so they can't be used in this white siberian area.

- If not already done : it miss a railroad connexion in the region of Talsi (Lettonie, close to Ventspils port).

- There 2 river regions in Ukrainia which stay locked and "not playable in the scenario", even after German evacuation : Psel Confluent & Upper Donets.

- The naval zone "Kronstadt Approaches" is "oceanic" instead of "coastal". It block many ships (North-West Whites can't bring their Pskov river ships to upper Volga if Petrograd fall). Is it WAD ?

- There is no message which say if ships are bombed by coastal forces with artillerie like in AACW ? (e.g. Kronstadt let the British fleet naval blocking Petersburg, obviously without bombing it...).

- The abilities of Lenin may won't work at all : since he's the kind of game's leader wich can't lead a force on the field, its both abilities Propagandist & Charismatic (which work only if commanding the force) will never work.

- This 2 regions North from Kursk are obviously designed to be "Woods", but they are currently "Clear" : Fatezh & Kromy

- The Tatarsk region (Omsk district, Siberia) is locked and display "Not playable in this scenario" for the Reds. Is it WAD ?

- i wonder if the event "Denikin killed" (evt_nam_CMN_DenikinKilled in RUS FlavorEvents.sct) can happen if its condition is "evt_nam_CMN_KornilovDies", because i never saw this event about Kornilov.

- evt_nam_Flavor_CMN_LeagueOfNations (it miss description of the event, and maybe any effect ?)
- evt_nam_Flavor_CMN_TreatyOfVersailles (idem)

- evt_nam_Renforts_GRN_BlackSeaInsurrection (maybe set more regions where it can appear than 3 to avoid gamey blocus, why this insurrection happen ? Should be linked with the green loyalty of this regions/area)
- evt_nam_Renforts_CMN_VolgaInsurrection (idem)

- evt_nam_WHI_USLeaveRussia (should happen earlier if tchekish legion evacuated via black sea)

- evt_nam_CMN_TambovUprising (it should happen only if the Whites are east to Omsk and in Crimea or Odessa or Kouban, except if the Komouch is still alive, then conditions could stay like this.) => the peasants historically did waited that the reactionary whites be defeated to revolt against the Bolcheviks, so it can't happen if the Whites are still in Russian inlands !!!

- evt_nam_CMN_KronstadtDefy (i have read that Reds loose -5 NM each turn till Kronstadt is hold by anarchists/bolcheviks rebels, but i wonder if it really works with the current code, it's look like a one shot -5NM only).

- All the "X Army near Y" events of the file RUS All Includes.sct have a huge value (EvalSubUnitCount = >=;100). Maybe 60 elements could be better because armies with 100 elements seems very hard to gather and not common to me in RUS (not like in AACW)...

- In the file RUS All Scenarios.sct file, the event about deserters (evt_nam_RED_RedArmyDeserters) cover the whole period of the war. I would split it in one such event per year which period cover only the historical period of massive peasants desertions, like each early spring and late summer periods, i believe.

- I would create such desertion events for the Whites too ! Escpecially after some events : Koltchak Coup (which distrust many peasants when seeing the very end of right SR influence among the White side), etc...

- The ledger options "Prisonners Recruitment" text says it brings bad effects among the army, but i don't see any bad effect from this events (in the file RUS F3 Options Reinforcements.sct). Maybe they should cost some VP.




Thank you for your long attention if you're still there... :neener:
REVOLUTION UNDER SIEGE GOLD

Athens
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Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:37 pm

Interesting :)

But you're forgetting a major concern: is the AI able to cpoe with your rules...

As a side note, the ANA AI doesn't work in the officila game, not beacause of AI events, which work welle but from another cause tied to Huliapole region.

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ERISS
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Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:09 pm

andatiep wrote:Political events & features :

----------------------------------------
About ruling the country side

To improve the fact that the country side should be controled to get food, fournitures & conscripts (not only the towns and the railroads axes inbetween like currently played) :

- Regional policies in the ledger (F7) should be available only when a player control (51+% MC) more than 2/3 of the area's regions. A mouse cursor information explaining why a player still can't performe a regional policy should pop in the ledger (F7).

Or Loyaulty could be used: Requisition was very dangerous in un-loyal countries, as bolsheviks had to take at unhabitant’s home without killing them (in order they could produce later to take them again). So, bolsheviks ‘created’ prodotryads squads, who were the ‘underground’ regional bandits who didn’t care politics, who knew better where, who, and how, to take from. The deal was the bandits gave half of their loot to bolsheviks, and the bolsheviks shut their eyes upon their banditry.
As the loyalty increased, Bolsheviks could take the taxes by themselves, keeping more for them.
So, I think the requisition should be only half if loyaulty is under 51%, and then grow the same as Loyalty grows.

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ERISS
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Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:10 pm

-------------------------------------
About Lenin :
- Lenin assassination event (evt_nam_Flavor_CMN_LeninAssassination) is not a scientific fact, it should be random, as well as its results :
- it may happen from early 1918 till the end of the game (but not anymore again after it happen).
- If it not happen, the tcheka policy regional decisions shoud anyway be available at the end of the year 1918.
- if it happen, a random chance is he die, then the game should have an alternate scenario : what would be the consequences ? it could be :
- Reds loss 50 NM like in the current events where Lenin is captured and executed...
- other consequences ?????

Yeah. I think an event is to be added (if not already ingame), when anarchist morale is becoming very low:
The blowing up of Bolshevik Moscow HQ: Anarchists did it September 1921!!
EDIT: I don't remember where I read this. Maybe I was talking about the Kovalévitch attempt (with 11 other 'consistent' anarchists, but the head was LeftSR Tchérépanov) the September 25th 1919 (Zagorsky and Kropotov dead, among 12 bolshevists).
May be some tried it again in 1921, September again in advance for the October birthday?

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Carrington
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Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:17 pm

ERISS wrote:The deal was the bandits kept half the loot, and the bolsheviks shut their eyes upon their banditry.
As the loyalty increased, Bolsheviks could take the taxes by themselves, keeping more for them.


Funny, the system mirror's the French state's tax-farming during the 17th century.

In modern terms, I guess you could call it a form of 'privatized' tax collection.

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ERISS
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Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:21 pm

---------------------------
About Tcheka military units & Political Commissar units :

Tcheka military units were used mainly to food requisitions, police & fight against local rebellions, military police reducing the desertions in the Red army. So i would rather give them abilities which :
- improve their fighting values against all kind of green, black or whites partizans/irregular/milicias units.
- improve their police & patrol values to simulate their role to control a region (best used with the concept of food production extented to clear/prairies/Woods/ regions without towns).
- allow the regional decisions Tcheka Policy to be activate in the area were they are (if no Tcheka military units, no such policy could be implemented...).
- plus their current ability against desertion (BTW, how it is working ?)

Tcheka was not combat units, at first. They were the better bolshevik members who had no responsability for the moment. They were only commissars with huge powers who could use other troops for their tasks. But, as bolsheviks needed more and more tcheka, they were less caring about their quality, and 2 months later after the Tcheka creation, Tcheka was only bandits with uniforms. Even the first tchekists, disgusted, wrote it.

Tcheka was used for requisition at the beginning, then that was specialized non-tchekist squads.

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ERISS
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Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:30 pm

The Political Commissar main role was more to control the military hierarchy and be sure they will follow the orders of the government, not to hunt deserteurs in the woods.
To not make a double feature with the Tcheka military units, i would remove the current ability against desertion the Commissar units share with the Tcheka military units and replace it with abilities which :
- improve the command capacity and/or the strategic/att/def values of the leader of the force were they are.
- stop a new feature which could randomly lock or delay the movment (like the ships in AACW) of a basic force without commissar.

To levy troops, I think military commissars were sent, who often used Tcheka to help the paesant decision...

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ERISS
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Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:36 pm

- Reds should also have a more limited amount of Political Commissar, VOKhR and Cheka military units, and it should have a political cost. Since it was most of them members of the Party, i suggest that all the ledger options "Party Members Join the Army" (in the file RUS F3 Options Reinforcements.sct) don't only give 50 basic conscripts anymore but increase also each time it is activated the number of this political units available in the unit building pool. This options should also cost also 20 VP each and some EP (many of this workers will die and it is the main political support of the Bolcheviks among the population).

What I think: In the end, VOKhR and Cheka candidate were told to enter the party to be allowed. Then they rarely could grow in the party hierarchy. They were made with actual bolsheviks during only 2 months after the Vokr and Cheka creations.

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TheDoctorKing
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Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:10 am

I agree with most of these points. Thanks to Andatiep as always for his careful analysis.

I was surprised to discover that the Cheka requisition option was not linked to the Cheka units at all. I would like to establish some sort of a linkage if possible. Maybe each Cheka battalion in a province would increase the loyalty gain by 1%, starting from 15% (rather than the current 20). This would require a coding change, though.

Fortifications and redoubts should cost the same, 6 artillery and 8 supply elements as stated in the manual. This is an easy fix that I have already implemented in my ongoing game.

I am very happy that Andatiep has figured out why the recruiting events aren't working.

On the Cheka: I understand that lots of people who joined the party during wartime were kicked out later, not only the low-ranking Cheka guys. So "party members join the army" is kind of wierd - it could just as easily be "army members join party".

I would like to see air units be buildable normally instead of through the options process.
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Depends on how you define victory.

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ERISS
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Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:37 pm

TheDoctorKing wrote:I was surprised to discover that the Cheka requisition option was not linked to the Cheka units at all.

Maybe because they were not. If I understood well:
At first Cheka had no unit. And when they had, I don't think they were used as requisition ones (maybe just at first when there was no specialized ones in requisition):
Cheka were useful to destroy doing the very nasty work without asking,
and they were useful as raiders, to make ponctual threats to forbid something: their threath alone was often not enough to convince desperate people at home, to, once the Cheka is gone, actually work with their job for bolsheviks.
Other unit, nasty in other way than just butchery, were used: local ones which were a constant threat on the workers.

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Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:48 pm

Hello people,

I created this wiki page so that we can work all together to realize our wishes much better than Coca Noël :
http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/A_RUS_wishlist_mini-MODs_workshop

It's time to finish the first main Mini-MODs, ...because it's really time to prepare a good Grand Campaign in PBEM :thumbsup: !!
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:18 am

I think the reason the White alliance with the minor countries costs so much NM is that the White ruling class was historically very unwilling to do this. The Russian nobility were committed to preserving "Russia one and undivided" and were never willing to consider giving the non-Russian areas of the empire independence. Any step in this direction is very ahistorical. Hence the big penalty - if any White leader did this, he would lose the support of a lot of his upper-class political base. I'd almost rather not have this option open to the Whites.
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Depends on how you define victory.



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Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:50 pm

An excellent wishlist.
I would only add some complexity to Ukranian question. Creation of an independent Ukranian buffer state was main polish interest in the east. Therefore, guaranteeing Ukranian independence should be the keystone of allying Poland. Denikin's move against Peltura was the main reason white-polish alliance never happened.

I think the reason the White alliance with the minor countries costs so much NM is that the White ruling class was historically very unwilling to do this.


As far as I know, it was more complicated. Denikin was middle-class, left and anti-independence, Wrangel was old nobility, right and pro-independence, and opposition to independence was mostly based not on imperial sentiments, but оn opinion that White Movement, being merely an anti-bolshevik army, has no right to sanction secessions.
In general, it depended on how willing was a leader to do politics, not on political orientation - recognizing national states gave huge benefits in exchange of tiny loss in social base, kind of an obvious choice for any leader with a clear political vision.
It was not imperialists vs republicans antagonism, it was a conflict between idealists and realists.

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Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:40 pm

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:It was not imperialists vs republicans antagonism, it was a conflict between idealists and realists.

Maybe, but the more realists, seeing their time was over and a new russian empire was to be built, joined the Reds in hope to be part of the red new ruling class.

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Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:32 am

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:I would only add some complexity to Ukranian question. Creation of an independent Ukranian buffer state was main polish interest in the east. Therefore, guaranteeing Ukranian independence should be the keystone of allying Poland. Denikin's move against Peltura was the main reason white-polish alliance never happened.


:) I'm listening...
Here are some notes on the topic : http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/A_RUS_wishlist_mini-MODs_workshop#Mini-MOD_.22playable_Nationalist_Ukrainians.2C_Poles_.26_Anarchists_factions.22

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:As far as I know, it was more complicated. Denikin was middle-class, left and anti-independence, Wrangel was old nobility, right and pro-independence, and opposition to independence was mostly based not on imperial sentiments, but оn opinion that White Movement, being merely an anti-bolshevik army, has no right to sanction secessions.
In general, it depended on how willing was a leader to do politics, not on political orientation - recognizing national states gave huge benefits in exchange of tiny loss in social base, kind of an obvious choice for any leader with a clear political vision.
It was not imperialists vs republicans antagonism, it was a conflict between idealists and realists.


:thumbsup: , it's nice to see that bears and gnus observe the same analyze. Here are also some notes about :
http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/A_RUS_wishlist_mini-MODs_workshop#Mini-MOD_.22Political_struggles.22
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Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:24 pm

"EP should be win : in the regions with a major % of loyalty (and especially in the big towns), in each region with ports which bring foreign support and influence, if specific policies/options are performed. "

If winning loyalty or controlling regions is necessary for gaining diplomatic alliances then how can the losing side get the support, or a faction controlling more towns and already winning why they need foreign support.

"E.g. it is senseless that the alliance with the Baltic or Finland States decrease the NM of the Whites : why would be the whites soldiers/peasants/workers moral on the battlefield much less than before they got the news that they have now huge reinforcements from abroad "

Theoraticaly soldiers,workers or etc will lose morale when those states once in the empire and now they allign with them as a sepetare state, also they will make them angry once states in an empire and declare independence. There were some academic writings about it.

Whites(Maybe Kolchak not sure?) didnt want Turkic tribes or nations to get independent even they were fighting against reds. Whites wanted to control them. Whites get suspecious and attacked them also.

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Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:41 pm

Baris wrote:"EP should be win : in the regions with a major % of loyalty (and especially in the big towns), in each region with ports which bring foreign support and influence, if specific policies/options are performed. "

If winning loyalty or controlling regions is necessary for gaining diplomatic alliances then how can the losing side get the support, or a faction controlling more towns and already winning why they need foreign support.


:confused: sorry, i don't understand you very well...

Since the players get really slowly EPs, they won't be able to choose all the alliances and get all this troops from abroad in few turns like currently.
To perform alternative policies, they will have to care of the population loyalty and maintain the naval links with the foreign intervention (which bring material support, but also political support to the historically alternative White government you represent).

Baris wrote:Theoraticaly soldiers,workers or etc will lose morale when those states once in the empire and now they allign with them as a sepetare state, also they will make them angry once states in an empire and declare independence. There were some academic writings about it.


No way... Maybe in 1914, but most historians (academics or not) agree on the fact that the peasants and the workers in 1917 were really not concerned at all by the Russian Nationalism or Imperialism doctrines. The very shared wish to stop immediately the WWI and the imperial tsarist geopolicy out of Russian homelands is one of the major explanation of the successful Bolshevik Coup.
The people really don't care to "loose" Finland, Baltic, Caucasus States, etc. This is remote region Russia already don't control anymore, they mostly care of what's going on in their own territory were they are from.

Remember that in the game, white troops (troops are made up with the same peasants & workers) are loosing 50% of their combat value if they loose 50 NM. Here it is absurd to use NM as a cost of this policy. This diplomatic options wouldn't have this effect on the field. It would probably even have brought a better National Moral and fighting value !

That's why it should be simulated the internal political struggle among the Whites leaders to perform alternative policies. And here comes the EP concept.
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Baris
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Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:51 pm

Great ideas you put by the way for wishlist.

Without knowing the details, the group or social class who were out of politics were mostly peasants or greens I guess. They form the majority of the population. White armies men count were tiny compared to peasants but they had the weapons and more clear purpose or benefit?. If a man decided to fight under the command of Wrangel, then he must share some thoughts about about politics(not always true of course) or etc even politics is a superstructure practiced by the elite or commanders. If NM is indicated in game as the NM of factions and their fighting will , then it can be logical to think as Wrangel and his supporters can lose "NM and will" when they decide to accept independence movements around Russia than Denikin or Reds. Reds on the other hand get the support from unpolitical masses such as peasants and they dont seem to get interesting about any politics so no penalty in their fighting will for their supporters by giving independences?. In short there can be different NM for Denikin and Wrangel about their political goals in game? :wacko:

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Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:02 pm

andatiep wrote:most historians (academics or not) agree on the fact that the peasants and the workers in 1917 were really not concerned at all by the Russian Nationalism or Imperialism


I second this. The emotion that drove the White Cause was first and foremost "save Russia from the Bolsheviks". Regular soldiers in the field, be they peasants, workers, оfficers or intelligentsia, had no time for politics, except for, maybe politically active Cossacks, whose morals strongly depended on (increasingly worsening) relations between Stavka and Кuban Rada\Don Krug.
The independence question was a stake in a game between leaders in Stavka, down to division commander level, but even their opinion was determined by actual situation on the front as they saw it, not politics. Even Denikin would probably have been willing to ally with the national movements if he saw what was coming, but, as he admits in his memoir, he was overly-optimistic after the first victories.

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Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:49 pm

Without knowing the details, White armies first aim is to stop red armies for sure. But theoratically could it be wrong to say(and with guess) soldiers or milice in the west part of Russia supporting Deninkin, has more consciousness about politics then say Kırghiz or tatar peasants?. At least they know geographically where baltic states or Fınland is? So with guess they could get upset more when knowing alliances and lose some NM in game turns. If Deninkin is a nationalist then groups supporting him also have a probability to get upset more when alliances are made with minor nations(It is abstract but can be logical in game turns)
Both engagement points and NM loss is logical I guess.

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Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:16 pm

Baris wrote: So with guess they could get upset more when knowing alliances and lose some NM in game turns.


Well, let the Whites have their say. :D

"We forgot that our main objective was to win the war. We've been offered manpower many times. We never accepted it, even when needed badly. We should have focused on one objective: crush the Bolsheviks and organize the Constituent Assembly. Petlura wants free Ukraine? Here, have it, take it, raise the troops and go fight Bolsheviks... Everything will be judged and decided later by Constituent Assembly. We fought over a skin of a bear we had yet to kill. Our tragedy is that we were led by old, narrow-minded people who knew nothing and learned nothing."

An unnamed White officer as recorded by cossack journalist G. N. Rakovskij. Actually, an alliance with Ukraine, Finland and especially Poland could result in a considerable raise of NM among the frontline troops. :)

Btw, this thread goes in a strange direction. Maybe we should move the discussion to the wiki page?

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Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:14 pm

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:Well, let the Whites have their say. :D [...]


Very nice story...

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:Btw, this thread goes in a strange direction. Maybe we should move the discussion to the wiki page?


We're still in the same boat... :) it's a wishlist thread like the AACW2 wishlist. Here we just gather all welcomed ideas and concepts and debate it.

I created a special discussion thread about the Wiki MOD workshop page in the MOD sub-forum to discuss there how to concretely and technically realize the proposals of this wishlist : http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=20151
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Baris
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Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:27 pm

Rasputin's Own Bear wrote:Well, let the Whites have their say. :D

"We forgot that our main objective was to win the war. We've been offered manpower many times. We never accepted it, even when needed badly. We should have focused on one objective: crush the Bolsheviks and organize the Constituent Assembly. Petlura wants free Ukraine? Here, have it, take it, raise the troops and go fight Bolsheviks... Everything will be judged and decided later by Constituent Assembly. We fought over a skin of a bear we had yet to kill. Our tragedy is that we were led by old, narrow-minded people who knew nothing and learned nothing."

An unnamed White officer as recorded by cossack journalist G. N. Rakovskij. Actually, an alliance with Ukraine, Finland and especially Poland could result in a considerable raise of NM among the frontline troops. :)

Btw, this thread goes in a strange direction. Maybe we should move the discussion to the wiki page?


Very Interesting. Russian Empire is collapsing,nationalism is appearing in some fronts after ww1 and they refuse to corporate or making alliances and refuse manpower help even soldiers will gain morale etc... Can be understood from Cossacks perspecitive but what about elite Russian intelligencia?

There is a concept in journalism(which I studied journalism in university) that one example can explain all other practices, or the reverse. But that generalised analysis can not be correct of course, thats why I put question marks in some sentences.

In game terms it is not practical to give NM bonus to white faction for alliances, as historically it is explained as "narrow-minded people" didnt see what was coming.. But from "what if" journalist report, it can be implemented in a mod as NM gain of course :) wish luck in your mod.

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Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:06 pm

Well, I believe that the quote represents the mindset of the regular White soldier fairly well, at least I got this impression after reading several memoirs.
"Whites were Czarist Imperialists" is very much of an old stereotype, really. It was Kornilov, for example, who arrested the Tsar and his family back in February. :)

However, gameplaywise some drawbacks are indeed needed. I quite like Andatiep's "politics for EP only" concept, and if he will be able to balance it, we'll get much more realistic system than the current one.

OR we can just say that an abstract NM represents not only troop morale, but the unity inside the Stavka (gen. Drozdovsky is a monarchist, he doesn't like allying with finns at all -> he quarrels with gen. Kutepov on the subject -> he and his troops who love him fight less eagerly as a result). Problem is, it was different for different generals. E. g., Drozdovsky's troops would have lost morale, Markovtsy and Kornilovtsy would have gained morale, and Cossacks would have been happiest men in the world.
Too hard to model. Maybe we could take "politic" stat of the generals and tie it to political orientation, for example?

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Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:57 pm

Without much distracting Andatiep thread and out of topic there should be of course diversity in whites groups such as monarchists,nationalists,democrat,landlords or revisionists or so..

As the game engine is limited to EP and NM, also if there are different opinions about alliances within different generals then better to make seperate NM for each General, then troops will fight according to that morale when alliances are chosen from ledger :D

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Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:14 am

An up for the excellent big work of Andatiep.
His wiki link is so far in bottom of his first post of this thread lol...: http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/A_RUS_wishlist_mini-MODs_workshop
All these ideas miss an easy automatic instaling :D (maybe done in next official patch ;) ).

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Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:03 pm

Let's go...

Komuch: something is profondly wrong in the idea Komuch had a chance to survive. the sad truth is the Komuch was made of the most honest and democratic fraction of the political class of Russia, but they get from people no support. No support at all. Not because bolsheviks won quickly over Komuch or because Whites let them agonize. Bolsheviks won easily because Komuch had no troops, no support and their defeat, apart in the SR ranks, was mourned by none. They were unfortunatly not sufficiently revolutionarty for peasants and workers by delaying any real social reform after the end of the civil war, and they were too revolutionary for the middle-class because they wanted to introduce social reforms after their victory. In civil war, you need one enemy, not 2.

Komuch chance was the Czech incident and support. But even this support was limited as Czech troops began to show signs of weariness from September 18.

So in any case, the probability of a democratic directory is about 0. What is possible in historical terms is a larger influence in the White movement, made possible by a slighter better armed resistance at first, but too by a more enlightened White politic.
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975

My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/

[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]

the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

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Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:23 pm

"Mini-MOD "Foreign recognitions & alliances"

1. Objectives, notes and TODO list

- It is senseless that the alliance with Finland or the Baltic or Caucasus States decrease the NM of the Whites : why would the whites soldiers/peasants/workers moral on the battlefield be much less than before they got the news that they have now huge reinforcements from abroad ? The only thing which should cost/be required here are a huge amount of EP, which represent the whites ruling classes and military leaders which oppose to it. So be changed the cost of global independences recognition (-40 EP and remove NM cost) and the cost of each alliance with this newly independent states (-20 EP and remove NM cost)."


Conclusion: Denikin, Kolchak were both mad and dumb when anyone claimed the necessity to ally with ethnic minorities among White ranks...

Back to history: RealPolitik is unfortunatly always discarded by the masses who prefer good old nationalist or political passions. When they were politized, White soldiers backed up their engagment to nationalism and were fighting to restauring Russia in the 1914 frontiers. When they were not politized, and only soldiers of fortune in an unfortunate civil war, White soldiers were just as racist ot at least chauvinistic than common people under any latitude at any time. being Russians, they shouldn't care about the political advantage to abandon territories rules by Russia.

Best point: War against Poles in 1920 surprised Bolsheviks by the sudden raise of a real even if limited nationalist support for war, prefiguring the rise of nationalism which saved Stalin in 1941. Voluntary enlistment was better and motivated not by the desire to expand the Revolution to world, a dream shared by an handful of red intellectuals( Stalin being interestingly much more cautious about as better linked to popular feelings). Behind Brusilov commitment, many jsut fought against Poles for russian nationalist motives.

So in any case, any Enlightened White politics about minorities can't be based on the assertion it would have been popular.
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975



My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/



[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]



the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

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Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:38 pm

These mini-mods are presented as destined for PBEM. Fine. But for 2 players PBEM or only 3 players PBEM?

If for pbem by 2 players, here a list of events the AI doesn't understand. At all. In this case, one AI faction will be yet more challenged, breaking yet more game balance.

- Set all UKR forces playable to WH3 faction and place them out of Makno, Grigoriev, WHI and French-Greek places and give some free replacements,

Ukrainian forces will discard Ukrain defense for Omsk and Samara interest.




- FIN troops will loose 50% cohesion if in Central Russia, Volga & Bielorussia theaters, and 95% if they go even further.

- CAU troops will loose 50% cohesion if in Volga, Central Russia & Ukraine theaters, and 95% if they go even further.

- BAL, GER troops will loose 50% cohesion if in Central Russia & Ukraine theaters, and 95% if they go even further.

- POL troops will loose 50% cohesion if in Central Russia & South Russia theaters, and 95% if they go even further.

- FRA, GRE, GBR, USA, JAP troops will loose 50% cohesion if in Bielorussia, Central Russia, Ural & Siberia theaters (far from the seas and main naviguable rivers).

- UKR & ANA troops will loose 50% cohesion if in Bielorussia, Central Russia & South Russia theaters, and 95% if they go even further.

- CHI troops will loose 95% cohesion if in Siberia, Ural & Eastern theaters

- ROU troops will loose 50% cohesion if in Ukraine & Bielorussia theaters, and 95% if they go even further.

Minorities limited ranges :

- WH3 Far-eastern cossack troops will loose 50% cohesion if they go west in Siberia & Ural theaters, and 95% if they go even further.

- DON troops will loose 50% cohesion if they go north to Central Russia, Volga & Bielorussia theaters, and 95% if they go even further. But if the independences are recognized, they get the 50% malus only if there is less than 40 DON units in the Don area.

- South (Kuban, etc.) cossacks troops will loose 50% cohesion if they go to Ukraine, Central Russia & Volga theaters, and 95% if they go even further.

- Ural cossacks will loose 50% cohesion if they go to Central Russia, North, South & Eastern theaters, and 95% if they go even further. But if the independences are recognized, they get the 50% malus only if there is less than 40 Ural cossacks units in the Ural theater.

- Siberian cossacks will loose 50% cohesion if they go to Volga, Central Russia, North, South & Eastern theaters, and 95% if they go even further. But if the independences are recognized, they get the 50% malus only if there is less than 40 Siberian cossacks units in the Siberian theater.

- Turkmen units (infantry & cavalry) will loose 50% cohesion if they go to Ural theater, and 95% if they go even further.


The AI doesn't care about areas limitations and penalties.

Give to the airplanes and Observation balloon units the ability "$Artillerist" (+25% strenght to arty in the stack) (and maybe remove this ability from all the leaders). This will maybe simulate a better role of this units in the WWI warfare. Open each file named with "Air Recon Squadron.mdl" in the file.../RUS/GameData/Models/ and add this line : Ability0 = $Artillerist

The AI will be unaware of this bonus.

If the SR rebellion happen, it allow 3 Cheka Regional Decision in the Bolchevik player pool (and if Lenin Assassination event happen, 6 are allowed, like currently). The Bolchevik player should have anyway 1 Cheka Regional Decision available after the WWI Armistice Event (The Revolution is Under Siege !).

Without event adjustment, AI ignores too changes for Regional decisions.


Semionov leaders as well as Baron Ungern-Sternberg should not be able to leave the far eastern theatre

each turn the AI will try to moce them, each turn they will be back in Chita...

Specialize the light armored train in the supply/ammo transport with a 200/200 supply/ammo capacity and reduce all the supply wagons units capacity to 20/20 (5/5 per element)

The AI will have no clue about this new rule as far I know.

Conclusion: PBEM with these rules only when the 3 playable factions are under player rule. Any AI with such an addition of penalties will crumble shortly.
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975



My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/



[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]



the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

Baris
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Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:54 pm

Athens wrote:[I]"Mini-MOD "Foreign recognitions & alliances"


Conclusion: Denikin, Kolchak were both mad and dumb when anyone claimed the necessity to ally with ethnic minorities among White ranks...

Back to history: RealPolitik is unfortunatly always discarded by the masses who prefer good old nationalist or political passions. When they were politized, White soldiers backed up their engagment to nationalism and were fighting to restauring Russia in the 1914 frontier. When they were not politizzed, and only soldiers of fortune in an unfortunate civil war, White soldiers were just as racist ot at least chauvinistic than common people under any latitude" at any time. being Russians, they shouldn't care about the political advantage to abandon territories rules by Russia.



I definetely agree and excellent insight. not only because Denikin and Kolchak were mad..
Ex: Terek cossacks or some other types were not originally from Caucasia. They were brought to Caucasia as an assimilation plan by the Tzar. Like other cossacks and Rus peasants migration to Turkestan/central asia to take natives land/farms. They should be very much racist or extreme nationalist. From this environment it should be difficult to gain support for Komuch and other democrat movements. And they should be less willingly support alliances with minor nations.

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