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Raidhaennor
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Polish-Soviet War Scenario

Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:04 pm

I've only been playing the short scenarios so far, inlcuding the polish-soviet one, and I've had a few issues with this one.

1) Overall it was fairly easy to get to Warsaw. It seems that the AI puts too great an emphasis on taking Kiev and Odessa, rather than defending its main city.
Also, from what I saw, there are 2 large forces on the Polish side, but somehow I was only confronted with the one in the South. I saw the one in the north, which seemed to threaten Minsk (and therefore my supply line) for a while, but nothing came of it, and I didn't see it afterward, not even as I was sieging, and then taking Warsaw.

2) That might not be specific to this scenario : I moved a force which contained armored trains to a region with a broken rail line. According to the manual this force should take more time, but repair the line as it goes. That's not what happened. On the screenshot : I moved the force from Korosteni to Volynsky (that turned out to be a very bad idea by the way :bonk :) , but upon arrival the rail line is not repaired. Bug, or is it something I misunderstood ? Image

3) This is not so much a problem, but rather a question : the victory conditions (on the red side) seem pretty drastic. I had control of Warsaw, and all but 2 objective cities in Poland (Krakow and Lwow I think), and the polish had taken only Odessa, and yet I only achieved a stalemate. Is the only way to achieve victory to take all polish cities ? What was the thinking behind that ? Just curious.

You can find the zip containing the savefiles of that entire game here : http://www.mediafire.com/?2bnza2eejbaven3 (slightly too large for the forum, even at the highest level of compression, sorry). edit : the move order I'm talking about above happened Late July I believe, and the force arrives in late august.
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Clovis
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Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:20 pm

AI should react if Warsaw is threatened, and well before :confused: . I will look at your files.Thanks for the report.
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Raidhaennor
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Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:25 pm

Strange thing is, I just tried reverting my save game several turns (to see when I made that move with the armored train), and then decided to take a look at the polish forces. So I loaded the AI side of things, and it seems that the polish force I saw near Minsk actually had the order to attack the city.

But for some reason that didn't happen when I was playing the first time around.

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Clovis
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Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:38 pm

Raidhaennor wrote:Strange thing is, I just tried reverting my save game several turns (to see when I made that move with the armored train), and then decided to take a look at the polish forces. So I loaded the AI side of things, and it seems that the polish force I saw near Minsk actually had the order to attack the city.

But for some reason that didn't happen when I was playing the first time around.


I just need to find a few free horus to reshape AI for this scenario. I should get before the next week, if all goes well :)
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Baris
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Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:28 pm

It is a good scenario. not related to topic but, Polish mountain inf in the scenario has mountaineer(move bonus to whole stack in mountains) and mountain fighter(bonus fighting in mountains which applies to all elements in unit is in) ability. is it better to use them as brigade level or for whole stack, as independent unit. Are they like skirmishers in ROP?

Baris
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Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:16 am

Polish forces captured Kiev and Ukranian nationalist uprising happened, small error in text.

[ATTACH]13976[/ATTACH]
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polish.jpg

Anazagar
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Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:04 pm

Baris wrote:Polish forces captured Kiev and Ukranian nationalist uprising happened, small error in text.

[ATTACH]13976[/ATTACH]


I believe that's true for all the Ukrainian uprisings events in this scenario.

Aditionally I think that the victory conditions for both sides are way too harsh.
In my game as Poland I have managed to keep Minsk, Kiev and Odessa so I should clearly be considered a victor - but the game decides it's a stalmate.

Baris
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Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:52 pm

Yes, I also took control of those cities except Odessa. But Im able to breach the walls. Navy in Danzig can not enter some regions so it can not be used for transport. 6 turns left and only movement of troops can take 4 turns to other objective cities.

There is script error I think.

"- [Error ] FullDebug: Script Engine Error(s), while parsing line 27300 ChangeActorPool = 5037;MaxUse;1;ResetFreq;1;ImageID;Opt_POL_Mobilization.png;Title;opt_title_POL_PartialMobilization;MsgString;opt_desc_POL_PartialMobilization;ToolString;opt_hint_POL_PartialMobilization;SubType;POL_PartialMobilization;SParam1POL "


Edit :I have sieged Moscow in the last turn, but it need 2 more turns to capture. screenshot:

[ATTACH]13978[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]13979[/ATTACH]

Edit: I think 17 turns a little short for this scenario. I have marched quickly to moscow from last 5 turns but could not get it.
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jack54
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Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:27 pm

Hi All,
I have nearly the same error message as Baris

[Error ] FullDebug: Script Engine Error(s), while parsing line 27136 ChangeActorPool = 5037;MaxUse;1;ResetFreq;1;ImageID;Opt_POL_Mobilization.png;Title;opt_title_POL_PartialMobilization;MsgString;opt_desc_POL_PartialMobilization;ToolString;opt_hint_POL_PartialMobilization;SubType;POL_PartialMobilization;SParam1POL

saves and main log attached... please tell me if you want me to continue to post similar problems I would like to help but don't want to be a pest either :)

thanks Jack
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Clovis
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Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:41 pm

Since the last patch (RC2),the AI files for this scenario were messed :( . I'm working on this and I should upload fixed files tomorrow.
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Raidhaennor
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Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:53 pm

That would explain it then. Thanks ;)

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Clovis
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Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:11 am

Here the new AI file for Russo-Polish war scenario.

Unrar them in the RUS/Events directory.

AI files weren't the right :( . I've sorted the mess and added a few things :D

I've not fully tested them. so, I'm waiting your remarks about athena :)
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ERISS
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Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:17 pm

Seeing Picaron AAR,
Image
Weygand would only be a spokeman, a link between general (of division) Paul Prosper HENRYS and Pole GHQ.
So, Henrys should replace Weygand in the game, and Weygand could be a French HQ aid unit with his name.
le général Henrys, chef de la mission militaire française en Pologne,

http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Vaucher/Temoignage_01.htm
Is the 1920 newspaper wrong?

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Narwhal
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Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:38 am

I believe it is more due to the fact that RUS was made by Frenchmen and that Henry is completely unknown in France, whereas Weygand, due to his role during WWII, is quite famous.

Lusatian
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Length, diplomatic and political options

Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:27 pm

Hello, I'm new to this forum having just bought RUS a couple of weeks ago, the game is great however I have a couple of issues with the Polish-Soviet War scenario. Firstly the scenario is too short to represent a conflict that lasted almost three years from 1919-1921 and there are absolutely no political or diplomacy options during the game. Surely some historical events could be included here such as:

1. Polish diplomatic option: Support Silesian Uprisings - costs money and warsupplies but after 2 years results in large national morale boost, money and warsupplies (Poland having gained a majority of coal mines and factories at the end of the conflict). Also surely Katowice should be a level 4-5 city?

3.Soviet Political option: Send agents to Western Trade Unions. Option would cost money but would blockade supplies to Poland from the West. Historically workers of Austria, Czechoslovakia and Germany eventually refused to transit any war materials to Poland. On August 6th, 1920 British Labor Party published a pamphlet which stated that workers of Great Britain would take no part in the war as allies of Poland. French Socialists, in their organ L'Humanite, declared "Not a man, not a soul, not a shell for reactionary and capitalist Poland. Long live the Russian Revolution. Long live Workman's International."

4. Alliance with Ukraine should be a Political or Diplomatic option for both sides, available earlier in the scenario if it made longer.

I understand 1919 was basically a build up to actual war with however it would be an idea to use it as a period for some political and diplomatic decisions and small skirmishes with border units.

As for the existing scenario:
No forts in Brest Litovsk??
What is the point of the Polish navy in Gdansk?

Sorry about the long post. And again RUS is a great game and I can see lots of effort was put into the game with the historical aspects, so this is just contructive criticism.

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barbu
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Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:04 am

I think these ideas are good, except for 1919 being a skirmish-year ("Your armies are locked for the following 26 turns" :) ).

As far as I see it, the Polish-Soviet and the Finnish Civil War are additions to the game's core design idea, which was the Russian Civil War. A lot of time was spent on the German scenario as well. While the Polish-Soviet war scenario is quite short, it's not why I bought the game so I'm quite pleased the attention of the designers went to the main Russian Civil War scenarios. No offense intended.

Lusatian
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Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:11 am

Well, maybe not a fixed year then :) However the Finnish civil war and in particular the Polish-Soviet War were important theatres of the Russian Civil War and yet do not have the same attention given as for the Drang nach Osten scenario. I'm not a fan of hypothetical wars and feel that this scenario accounts for the inadequate smaller scenarios.

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ERISS
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Mon May 02, 2011 4:04 am

ERISS wrote:Weygand would only be a spokeman, a link between general (of division) Paul Prosper HENRYS and Pole GHQ.
So, Henrys should replace Weygand in the game, and Weygand could be a French HQ aid unit with his name.
http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Vaucher/Temoignage_01.htm

If wiki correct, before the French Military Mission event of July 1920, there should already be a French Military Mission in Poland, commanded by Henrys. The July 1920 event was an Allied Political Mission, where Weygand was imposed to Henrys still commandant of the already in Poland military mission.
But the 1920 Political (pseudo-military) Mission did not succeded with the poles for Weygand, as seen in the 1920 paper (see link in quote*) where his name does not appear!
* Google translated: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=fr&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.greatwardifferent.com%2FGreat_War%2FVaucher%2FTemoignage_01.htm

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ERISS
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Mon May 02, 2011 1:25 pm

Battle of Warsaw wiki is more referenced:
According to recent research,[11] the French Military Mission proposed only a minor tactical counter-attack of two divisions towards Mińsk Mazowiecki. Its aim would have been to push the Bolshevik forces 30 kilometres back in order to ease subsequent ceasefire negotiations.[12] On the other hand, General Rozwadowski's plan called for a deeper thrust into Russian lines from the area of Wieprz. However, Piłsudski proposed a large-scale operation, with significant forces committed to beating the enemy forces rather than merely pushing them back. The plan was opposed by the French mission, which did not believe that the Polish Army would be able to regroup after a 600 kilometre retreat.[13] Nonetheless for many years, a myth persisted that it was the timely arrival of Allied forces that had saved Poland, a myth in which Weygand occupied the central role.[1][14]

We can say the Pilsudski large-scale operation (plan mocked by all -even enemies-, before it was successful, and called a miracle* afterward) was allowed by Henrys' reorganisation of the Pole army. The new 1920' French (Allied) Military (political) Mission, decided by an English saying poles were bad children, was here for Allied to 'sharing' what they could (then of the surprising pole victory).
As a note, IIRC, Cpt De Gaulle was already with Henrys in Poland in 1919 (before July 1920 mission, not in the luggage with Weygand whose untold mission -even to him- was to take the pole victory (Henrys was a victim of this as he was only honored in Poland, not in France)).
Between 1919 and 1920, De Gaulle was with a French military mission based in Poland.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/charles_de_gaulle.htm
(However not a very good site for History)

* "Miracle": Due to very good pole Intelligence Service, to disobedient Stalin who made the needed hole in Red army, and to Budenny who followed him and blocked his cavalry (feared just because it was cavalry) in the Stalin (failed) siege of Liv!

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ERISS
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:24 am

Mon texte pour "La France soutient l'armée polonaise" (fin Juillet 1920):
Les alliés, déjà impliqués dans la guerre sovieto-polonaise, envoient une "mission franco-anglaise" militaro-diplomatique, comprenant six hommes dont le général Weygand. Parmi les quatre centaines d'officiers de la Mission Militaire Française, conseillers en Pologne depuis plus d'un an, commandés par le général Henrys, on note la présence d'un certain capitaine Charles de Gaulle.

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John Sedgwick
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Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:18 am

Figured I'd reply to this thread rather than start a new one. Just loaded up the Polish-Soviet War scenario, and found a Siberian tank company masquerading as poles, but at war with my nation. I assume this is not working as designed?
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Halibutt
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Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:46 pm

  1. +1 to that. There are White tanks dressed in Polish colours in Lvov since probably the latest patch. First of all, the tanks there shouldn't be white. They shouldn't be there at all- or they should be Polish (Polish 1st Tank Regiment arrived from France in July 1919, though it operated mostly in the north, not in Lvov. And secondly, Poland should not be at war with the whites, as it never fought them (as a matter of fact Polish units even helped the whites in Siberia (5th Infantry Division), Kuban and Odessa (4th Division) and elsewhere.
  2. The Weygand error is still there in 1.04.
  3. The image for "raise more money" for the Poles features quite a large watermark of scripophilia.com (apparently the image was stolen from here). If you want unwatermarked image, this bond (also from 1920) would do just as fine.
  4. Kaunas is under Polish control from the start. Historically Poles never entered Kaunas, nor did they intend to.
  5. As much as I love to have those extra units on my map, Lithuanian Army did not fight alongside the Poles. Quite the opposite, after the Lithuanians expelled the Bolsheviks from their territory (with Polish help, BTW) in 1919, they signed a peace treaty and a secret military treaty with the Reds and during the summer of 1920 effectively fought against Poland (see this wiki article for a short glimpse. They also had a right of free passage through Lithuanian territory. So no, Zukauskas' corps should not be available to the Poles at the start of this scenario.
  6. No historical fortresses (Brest, Modlin)
  7. Leader traits are given out pretty much at random (more on that in the next post)
  8. Pictures for Józef Haller and Stanisław Haller (event-activated) do not show at all
  9. Dojana-Surowki (Maj.Gen., CO of 2nd Legions' Infantry Division). This is the accusative of the name of Gen. Edward Dojan-Surówka (Dojan-Surowka in nominative and without diacritics).
  10. The Polish currency. In-game sometimes it's called Rubles, sometimes Zlotys. In reality Polish mark remained in use until 1924, when it was replaced with Polish zloty.
  11. In lower Dnieper there's a riverine flotilla. I'm not really sure, but it seems it's event-activated. After I (as Poles) captured its' port, it turned out to be... owned by the Whites (with whom I'm at war for some weird reason). Shouldn't the flotilla be captured by my troops and not by Whites who are not even there (Crimea only)?


I will post some more bugs here soon, though judging by lack of response to earlier messages here in this thread it wouldn't be very fruitful.


Cheers

Halibutt
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Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:29 am

In my post above I pointed out that IMO the leader traits and ranks for Polish generals are pretty much random, with little regard for historical accuracy. Here's my list.
  • Schubert (currently Patriot) - well... he was a skilled division commander in 1920, he managed to lead a green 7th Infantry Division in and (more importantly) out of Kiev and turned it into a decent tactical unit. Solution: make him a "good commander" and a major general?
  • Adolf Kuczewski (currently CO of 17th Infantry Division; no traits and rightfully so). He never commanded a division in his life. He commanded a brigade in Russian-led 3rd Polish Rifles Division, then became one of deputy commanders of the 17th Division (in fact the CO of its' XXXIII Brigade). As the division fought mostly split up into separate regiments, he didn't have much to do there. Finally, already before the battle of Warsaw he was relieved of command, sent to Warsaw and spent the rest of the war in C-i-C's officer reserve.
  • Jan Rządkowski (one of my favourites; currently CO of 1st Lithuanian-Belarusian Division; no traits). The guy definitely deserves a trait or two. He was an excellent commander both on division and corps levels (though mostly a tactician rather than strategist). His 1st Division did an excellent job at Radzymin (during the Battle of Warsaw), he also showed his skills in the later battle of the Niemen river (although admittedly with significant losses, by a forced march through Lithuanian-held territories he outflanked the Russians and forced them to retreat.)
  • Franciszek Dindorf-Ankowicz (currently CO of 10th Infantry Division, fort defender). While I love the guy for his command of the 10th ID in 1939 (he managed to keep his division in shape as the only one of the doomed Prusy Army and was one of the last to capitulate), in 1920 he was but a regiment commander. Sure, the 1st Siberian Infantry Regiment was a bunch of tough-guys, but it was a regiment, not a division. In 1920 the 10th Division was commanded by Lucjan Żeligowski, also a great commander.
  • Stanisław Szeptycki (CO NE Front, no traits) - another guy deserving a trait. He was a great army organiser (Chief of Staff of the Polish Army in the earliest period, during the fights with Ukrainians). As CO of the Lithuanian-Belarusian Front, the NE Front and 4th Army (at the same time!), he was responsible for his forces to survive the 600km+ retreat from Belarus to the gates of Warsaw. Quite a feat, if you asked me.
  • Antoni Listowski (CO 2nd Army; no traits) - a case similar to Szeptycki. He led the 2nd Army (and the Ukrainian front) during the Kiev operation. While the main
  • Władysław Jung (CO 15th ID; no traits). I'd give him one trait for his ability to pursuit the enemy. The 15th division showed that ability more than once. Following the Battle of Warsaw Jung managed to liberate much of Masovia. Again, after the battle of Niemen he chased the Reds to the gates of Minsk (and re-captured the city a couple of days before the cease-fire).
  • Stanisław Skrzyński (CO 16th Division; no traits). Well, technically he was the commander of the 16th division in the spring of 1920. However, the division was divided and only one brigade fought in Ukraine, while the rest was stationed safely in Pomerania. It was not until the summer when it entered the fights as a single unit, but by then Skrzyński was replaced with Kazimierz Ładoś. Any idea how to represent that in-game?


There's also some more names to be added to the scenario. For instance Marko Bezruchko, CO of the Ukrainian 6th Sich Rifles Division fighting alongside the Poles in Kiev and then in the battle of Komarów. Currently the division lacks commander in-game.
Cheers

Halibutt
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Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:39 am

Another bug spotted: the province of Kamenskaya is untakeable. For the last three turns my army has been stationed there, with two divisions of infantry, including two elite infantry (Police 3) and a couple conscript infantry (Police 4). Yet, the control of the province is still 100% Bolshevik. Any ideas?
Cheers

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Hohenlohe
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Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:38 am

Halibutt wrote:Another bug spotted: the province of Kamenskaya is untakeable. For the last three turns my army has been stationed there, with two divisions of infantry, including two elite infantry (Police 3) and a couple conscript infantry (Police 4). Yet, the control of the province is still 100% Bolshevik. Any ideas?
Cheers


You should give your units an offensive stance and style then your MC should change faster but in defensive it seems to need more time, is my experience but I could be wrong.

greetings

Hohenlohe... ;)
R.I.P. Henry D.

In Remembrance of my Granduncle Hans Weber, a Hungaro-German Soldier,served in Austro-Hungarian Forces during WWI,war prisoner, missed in Sibiria 1918...

Halibutt
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Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:59 am

Hohenlohe wrote:but I could be wrong.
Indeed you are. Tried all stances, nothing changed. Still 100% communist even though no commie units anywhere near the province and even with defensive stance the ownership should change a little, let it be 2% a turn, but still. Meanwhile, it doesn't change at all, no matter what.
Cheers

Czert
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Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:32 pm

I think it will be geat if yxou can extend time of war id you going well, but need more time to win, like you besiging many cities, and it is only matter of time to capture them, but voala - you signed arministence (draw as time runed out) instead of simply little longer and war and sure win.
And this counts for alll scenarions.

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