Page 3 of 10

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:15 pm
by AeonTal
Thank you all for a very good game :)
Lately i'll try second iteration in deep search -may be in ordinary and e-books.
And what about generals with fotos which not used in game(like general Khorvat -chief in Russian China or Kontr-Admiral Stark in Far East and others)Do you need them with foto and small annotation?

Are links with Russian names opens?

1293WH3M.V. Khanzhin.mdl and 1298WH3M.V. Khanzhin.mdl
1158WHIY.A. Slashev.mdl and 1222WHIY.A. Slashev.mdl
1152WHIS.G. Ulagai.mdl and 1182WHIS.G. Ulagai.mdl
1292WH3M.F. Martynov.mdl and 1319WH3M.F. Martynov.mdl AND 1360WH3M.F. Martynov.mdl
1294WH3V.S. Tolstov.mdl and 1316WH3V.S. Tolstov.mdl AND 1366WH3V.S. Tolstov.mdl
1311WH3V.I. Akutin.mdl
1325WH3V.P. Gulidov.mdl
1330WH3I.P. Kalmykov.mdl
1371WH3A.N. Lokhvitsky.mdl
1007REDSytin.mdl and 1111REDSytin.mdl
1014REDV.I. Kikvidze.mdl and 1073REDV.I. Kikvidze.mdl
1044REDA.D. Kravchenko.mdl
1056REDF.K. Mironov.mdl
971REDA.I. Avtonomov.mdl and 1067REDA.I. Avtonomov.mdl
984REDK. Avksentevski.mdl and 1082REDK. Avksentevski.mdl
994REDA.I. Kork.mdl and 1089REDA.I. Kork.mdl
[url]Корк,_Август_Иванович(probably[/url] 1930s)
974REDA. Samoylo.mdl and 1096REDA. Samoylo.mdl
1097REDV.I. Shorin.mdl and 977REDV.I. Shorin.mdl
1118REDI.S. Yumashev.mdl(probably uniform of 30s)
999REDE.N. Sergeyev.mdl and 1108REDE.N. Sergeyev.mdl
998REDV.S. Lazarevich.mdl and 1107REDV.S. Lazarevich.mdl
1040REDN.F. Gikalo
1104REDA. Gekker.mdl and 989REDA. Gekker.mdl
1115REDL.M. Galler.mdl

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:56 am
by jack54
thanks Aeon Tal,

excellent work, the mdl numbers help alot. :thumbsup:

I downloaded the Reds so far, some are really good... One thing, I could not find an image of A.I. Kork at that link... might be me though! once again ...excellent!

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:16 am
by AeonTal
You are always welcome :)

994REDA.I. Kork.mdl and 1089REDA.I. Kork.mdl(yet uniform of 30s)
1051REDI.F. Fedko.mdl and 982REDI.F. Fedko.mdl

Kalnin,but as I understand another then 1049REDK.I. Kalnin.mdl,but this Kalnin was a commander of Red Latvian's division in Oct.19 -July 20


Will find another,but can Barbu update list of names? May be by using bold font in persons without portrait?

1071REDE. Bosch.mdl-(women-leader of Cheka in Penza?)

(update of this post)
1200WHIF.F. Abramov.mdl
1202WHIA.V. Korvin-Krukovski.mdl
1383WH4H.K. Von Neff.mdl
1300WH3A.V. Ellerts-Ussov.mdl and 1379WH3A.V. Ellerts-Ussov.mdl
998REDV.S. Lazarevich.mdl and 1107REDV.S. Lazarevich.mdl
995REDN.V. Sollogub.mdl and 1105REDN.V. Sollogub.mdl
999REDE.N. Sergeyev.mdl and 1108REDE.N. Sergeyev.mdl
1063REDBaltisky.mdl(without name not sure about him)
1172WHIN. Timanovsky.mdl
1394WH5V.S. Skobeltsyn.mdl and 1401WH5V.S. Skobeltsyn.mdl

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:18 am
by Narwhal
I don't have the game handy right now, so I cannot check, but I seem to remember that Hugo Salmela commands the Red defense of Tampere, and has a generic picture.

It happens that the Finnish Wiki has a picture of him, even though he looks younger than he really was at the time of the battle of Tampere :

Edit : rest of the message was useless.

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:22 am
by Narwhal
By the way, I understand who WHI, WH3, WH4 and WH5 are, but who are WH2 ?

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:39 am
by Seb
Narwhal wrote:By the way, I understand who WHI, WH3, WH4 and WH5 are, but who are WH2 ?

WH2 are Komuch :)

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:19 am
by OneArmedMexican
I just uploaded version 1.5. which thanks to Jack54's great work contains 21 new graphic sets. :)


The file is as usually attached to the first post in this thread.

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:46 am
by Narwhal
Polish General Haller :
[First page of "L'Illustration", dude on the left I suppose]

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:40 am
by jack54

You are much too kind with your praise; much of the General Image sets depend on the quality of the original photos I was fortunate to be supplied with links to so very good images (Aeon Tal and others)... but I do thank you! :)

together we are 'all' making a difference! :thumbsup:

I just grabed some WH1 images from posts 59 and 63 I'll see what I can do with them...Happy New Year All!

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:37 pm
by AeonTal
1271WH2S.N. Liupov.mdl and 1288WH2S.N. Liupov.mdl
1336WH3V. Kosmin.mdl

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:56 am
by OneArmedMexican
Thank you for the steady flow of new portraits, AeonTal. :thumbsup: Your help is very much appreciated.

Jack, could you leave the portrait for 1383WH4H.K. Von Neff.mdl which Aeontal posted (see post 63) for me. El Nino recently sent me one which has a better quality. I will start on it tomorrow.

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:55 am
by OneArmedMexican
Aeontal, I am right now looking at the WHI4 faction (= Yudenich). I am hoping to finish them for the next version of this mod.

In order to achieve that I am missing historical portraits for three generals. Did you by any chance come across some of them?

- 1388 D. Vetrenko
- 1389 A.F. Von der Pahlen
- 1392 Zhiropinsky

Arseniev and Gueorg are already done. Von Neff will follow soon.

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:34 am
by AeonTal
:( OneArmedMexican,unfortunately no but I'll ask about them.Foto with them may be in family or in private collections.My be was published in White's emmigrant press,but in modern publications about Civil War it cannot be found.

Another question about Zhiropinsky- I am not sure about right translation on Russion language, because Жиропинский not even mention in search engines,can you tell me what unit was under his command and I'll look in unit's database to find right spelling of this name in Russian

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:04 pm
by jack54

I just posted 10 leader sets (2 RED 8 WHI) in RED THREAD... please take for next update... right now I'm searching for a direction... :confused:

(I have 1261 DONI.F. Bykadorov and 1274WH2V.G. Boldyrev 1280WH2 almost finished but I hate to post varied factions-- guess it doesn't really matter except for record keeping) ;)


Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:30 pm
by OneArmedMexican
AeonTal wrote: :( OneArmedMexican,unfortunately no but I'll ask about them.Foto with them may be in family or in private collections.My be was published in White's emmigrant press,but in modern publications about Civil War it cannot be found.

Another question about Zhiropinsky- I am not sure about right translation on Russion language, because Жиропинский not even mention in search engines,can you tell me what unit was under his command and I'll look in unit's database to find right spelling of this name in Russian

Thank you for trying. Without people like you digging up old photographies this mod wouldn't be possible.
As conserns Zhiropinsky, don't waste your time on him. I couldn't find him in any scenario setup or event file. It seems this leader was included in the database without being actually used. I hate it when that happens. :mad:

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:20 am
by AeonTal
Thank you :thumbsup: .Is it possible to create list of names which still need fotos? I'll try to repost it in Russian Civil War's forums and compose letters to some of the "hardcore" Russian Civil War's historians.

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:26 am
by Cat Lord
Thank you guys, you are doing an awesome job ! :cool: :coeurs:


Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:29 am
by AeonTal
930REDR.F. Sievers.mdl and 1003REDR.F. Sievers.mdl and 1033REDR.F. Sievers.mdl (second from the left)
975REDE. Iskritsky.mdl and 1081REDE. Iskritsky.mdl
1113REDV. Altfater.mdl (second from the right - sit)
1215WHIN.E. Bredov.mdl (in center with beard -Kutepov,next to the right Vitkovsky,next Bredov, next Davatz
1050REDS.K. Timoshenko.mdl
1259DONE.F. Semiletov.mdl
1252DONI.E. Gulyga.mdl
1313WH3A.F. Matkovsky.mdl
1240DONS.V. Denisov.mdl and 1260DONS.V. Denisov.mdl
1234DONN. Alekseev.mdl and 1269DONN. Alekseev.mdl
1194WHIM. Vinogradov.mdl
1189WHIA. Cherepov.mdl
1188WHIN. Uspensky.mdl
1181WHIM.O. Nezhentsev.mdl
1173WHIA. Gubin.mdl
1149WHIM. Promtov.mdl and 1220WHIM. Promtov.mdl
1653UKRA. Grekov.mdl

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:15 pm
by jack54
awesome again! :thumbsup:

I think all are usable (except for 1113 Altfater) some are excellent, thank you!

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:25 pm
by AeonTal -another better foto for Alfater
1002REDD.P. Parsky.mdl and 1080REDD.P. Parsky.mdl
1004REDK.S. Ieremeev.mdl and 1110REDK.S. Ieremeev.mdl
1034REDY. Sablin.mdl and 964REDY. Sablin.mdl
1036REDM.M. Lashevich.mdl and 976REDM.M. Lashevich.mdl
1052REDI.S. Kutiakov.mdl
1642GRNE.S. Kazansky.mdl
1121REDN.G. Markin.mdl
1117REDA. Nemits.mdl
979REDT. Khvesin.mdl and 1099REDT. Khvesin.mdl

Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:38 am
by OneArmedMexican
I have just uploaded version 1.6. of this mod.

This update wouldn't have happened if not for two people: Jack54 who is creating beautiful graphic sets at an impressive pace and AeonTal who is a master at digging up historical portraits. :thumbsup:

Here is what is new:


Jack has shifted his focus from the Bolshevics to the Southern Whites:
- RED: Salmela
- RED: Yumashev
- WHI: Vitkovsky
- WHI: Timanovsky
- WHI: Toporkov
- WHI: Chekatovsky
- WHI: Lukomsky
- WHI: Abramov
- WHI: Kazanovich
- WHI: Romanovsky
- POL: Jung (Jack54's very first graphic set which I forgot to include in version 1.5)

I have concentrated on some of the smaller subfactions. Many of the originals I used in this update were low quality - sometimes hardly bigger than the RUS Unit pictures.
- WH4: Gueorg
- WH4: von Neff
- WH4: Arseniev
- BAL: Puskar
- BAL: Zemitans
- WH5: Marushevsky
- WH5: Murusi
- WH3: Juna-Id-Khan (I had to paint half the turban by hand in order to get a usable Army.png)

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:10 pm
by AeonTal
1101REDV. Chervanin.mdl and 981REDV. Chervanin.mdl

but right Chernavin ;)
another better foto for REDY.Sablin

list of missing leader portraits

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:38 pm
by OneArmedMexican
It has been some time since barbu last updated the list of missing leader portraits. Since I haven't heard from him in a while, I have updated his list myself.

Some short explanations:

1) the number at the beginning is the mdl number (helps us quickly find the mdl file)
2) the next three letters depict the faction a leader belongs to
3) Some leaders are missing first names (which makes the search for pictures extremely difficult). Unfortunately, I cannot change that. I suspect that already the original researchers were unable to find first names and thus entered incomplete names into the database.

943REDS. Kojnilov.mdl
952REDP. Slaven.mdl and 980REDP. Slaven.mdl and 1019REDP. Slaven.mdl and 1100REDP. Slaven.mdl
960REDA. Aaltonen.mdl and 961REDA. Aaltonen.mdl a drawing exists, photography needed
973REDA. Rzhevsky.mdl and 1069REDA. Rzhevsky.mdl
988REDN. Zhdanov.mdl and 1084REDN. Zhdanov.mdl
990REDS.K. Matsiletsky.mdl and 1085REDS.K. Matsiletsky.mdl
1005REDM.V. Smirnov.mdl and 1038REDM.V. Smirnov.mdl
950REDI.L. Sorokin.mdl and 1010REDI.L. Sorokin.mdl
1021REDM.V. Safonov.mdl
1022REDB.N. Ivanov .mdl picture found, portrait not yet done
1023REDM.A. Nikolsky.mdl
1024REDA. Backman.mdl
1025REDA.E. Leinonen.mdl can we find a picture from the Civil War era?
1026REDA. Stolbov.mdl
1030REDE. Karjalainen.mdl picture found, however extremely low quality
1031REDV. Hurri.mdl
1038REDM.V. Smirnov
1043REDV.I. Pavlovsky.mdl
1048REDM. Poluyan.mdl
1049REDK.I. Kalnin.mdl
1053REDP.A. Solodukhin.mdl picture found
1058REDA. Aven.mdl
1060REDP.P. Lebedev.mdl picture found
1065REDTriapitsyn.mdl need better picture, have only a group picture
1066REDA. Skachko.mdl
1071REDE.Bosch photo found, post #63
1098REDZ. Bliumberg.mdl and 978REDZ. Bliumberg.mdl
979REDT. Khvesin.mdl and 1099REDT. Khvesin.mdl
986REDV. Liubimov.mdl and 1103REDV. Liubimov.mdl
999REDE.N. Sergeyev.mdl and 1108REDE.N. Sergeyev.mdl photo found, post #61
1114REDY. Berins.mdl
1128WHIKoshelev.mdl and 1162WHIKoshelev.mdl and 1218WHIKoshelev.mdl
1129WHIBelsky.mdl and 1163WHIBelsky.mdl AND 1219WHIBelsky.mdl
1137WHISlushov.mdl and 1164WHISlushov.mdl and 1216WHISlushov.mdl
1143WHIK. Udovenko.mdl and 1197WHIK. Udovenko.mdl
1145WHIKryzhanovsky.mdl and 1184WHIKryzhanovsky.mdl
1154WHIN. Shilling.mdl and 1209WHIN. Shilling.mdl picture found
1158WHIY.A. Slashev.mdl and 1222WHIY.A. Slashev.mdl photo found, post #61, poor quality
1161WHIA.P. Bogaevsky.mdl photo found, post #59
1166WHIP. Mamontov.mdl
1169WHIA. Kolossovsky.mdl
1171WHIP. Ossovsky.mdl
1175WHIG. Rastogruev.mdl
1180WHIG.F. Bisherakhov.mdl picture found
1185WHIT. Ostroukhov.mdl
1186WHID. Repnikov.mdl
1190WHIN. Vadbolsky.mdl picture found
1191WHIIvanovsky.mdl picture found
1192WHIA. Revishin.mdl
1193WHIS.T. Dobrovolsky.mdl can we find one from the Civil War Era?
1204WHIV.F. Subbotin.mdl
1205WHIB.I. Kazanovich.mdl photo found, post #59, low quality
1223WHIV.A. Kanin.mdl photo found
1237DONP.N. Kudinov.mdl and 1268DONP.N. Kudinov.mdl
1238DONI.A.. Poliakov.mdl photo found
1240DONS.V. Denisov.mdl and 1260DONS.V. Denisov.mdl photo found, post #78
1241DONF.F. Abramov.mdl and 1242DONF.F. Abramov.mdl
1244DONS.K. Borodin.mdl
1245DONK.P. Shumilin.mdl
1246DONZ.A. Alferov.mdl
1247DONI. Donskov.mdl
1248DONO. Savvateev.mdl
1249DONN. Neimirok.mdl
1250DOND. Krivov.mdl
1251DONG. Makarov.mdl
1253DONB.V. Tolkuchin.mdl
1256DONK. Medvedev.mdl
1273WH2D. Popov.mdl and 1275WH2D. Popov.mdl
1276WH2A.P. Stepanov.mdl
1278WH2F.E. Makhin.mdl and 1328WH3F.E. Makhin.mdl
1281WH2G. Yuriev.mdl
1282WH2G. Timanov.mdl
1283WH2A.S. Imshenetsky.mdl
1284WH2K. Podriachik.mdl
1285WH2A.P. Perkhurov.mdl photo found, post #59, poor quality
1289WH3A.G. Boldyrev.mdl
1301WH3G. Zhukov.mdl and 1376WH3G. Zhukov.mdl photo found, post #84, poor quality
1303WH3Tseretely.mdl and 1378WH3Tseretely.mdl
1304WH3N. Sukhin.mdl and 1380WH3N. Sukhin.mdl
1305WH3Matsievsky.mdl and 1369WH3Matsievsky.mdl
1309WH3N.A. Savelev.mdl and 1361WH3N.A. Savelev.mdl
1310WH3P.P Grivin.mdl and 1368WH3P.P Grivin.mdl
1314WH3Panov.mdl and 1338WH3Panov.mdl
1320WH3S. Dzhunkovsky.mdl
1323WH3E.K. Vishnevsky.mdl
1326WH3V.N. Shishkin.mdl
1330WH3I.P. Kalmykov.mdl photo found, post #59
1333WH3K. Kononov.mdl
1337WH3F. Puchkov.mdl found, post #29
1344WH3V. Ossipov.mdl picture found
1347WH3A. Ugo-Ugovets.mdl
1348WH3B. Zinevich.mdl
1351WH3G. Machtakov.mdl
1353WH3G. Krutin.mdl
1354WH3Oraz Sirdar.mdl photo found, post #94, low quality
1357WH3D.F. Semenov.mdl found, is on page 2 of thread
1362WH3Igrash Bey.mdl
1363WH3Madanin-Bek.mdl found, is on page 2 of thread
1373WH3P.A. Belov.mdl
1374WH3I.N. Krasilnikov.mdl
1388WH4D. Vetrenko.mdl
1395WH5G.E Shaplin.mdl
1396WH5N.I. Zvegintsev.mdl
1398WH5N.A. Durov.mdl
1403FINE.B. Lofstrom.mdl
1415ROMI. Zadik.mdl
1543GERJ. Bischoff.mdl photo found, post #86
1545GERP. Bermondt-Avalov.mdl picture found
1551GERH. Meurer.mdl
1607BALS. Zukauskas.mdl and 1619BALS. Zukauskas.mdl photo found, is on page 2 of this thread
1612BALVariakojis.mdl photo found, post #86, tiny picture
1614BALJ. Purins.mdl
1618BALK. Ladyga.mdl
1630CZEJ.J. Svec.mdl photo found, is on page 2 of this thread
1632GRNP.M. Tokmakov.mdl photo found, is on page 2 of this thread
1633GRNIgrash Bey.mdl
1634GRNMadanin-Bek.mdl photo found
1635GRNKurshirmat.mdl photo found
1637GRNA. Bukeikhanov.mdl photo found
1638GRNAziz Khan.mdl photo found
1639GRNK.I. Monstrov.mdl
1640GRND. Terpylo.mdl photo found, post #21
1641GRNP.M. Moritz.mdl
1642GRNE.S. Kazansky.mdl photo found, post #80
1645ANAN.A. Grigoriev.mdl found, post #19 of this thread
1651UKRV. Tarnavskyi.mdl drawing found, a photo would be better
1668POLM. Osikowski.mdl
1670POLJ. Czikiel.mdl
1671POLA. Kuczewski.mdl
1679POLS.Z. Kaliszek.mdl
1682POLF. Paulik.mdl
1684POLS. Rosnowski.mdl
1693FRA P.H. d'Anselme.mdl
1699FRA A.E. Nerel.mdl photo found
1700FRA E.G. Trousson.mdl
1704FRA F.L. Jouinot-Gambetta.mdl
1708GBRJ. Elmsley.mdl and 1720GBRJ. Elmsley.mdl found, however only in a small resoultion group picture
1709GBR D.C. Poole.mdl photo found, post #86
1710GBR C. Maynard.mdl and 1717GBR C. Maynard.mdl
1713GBRC.D. Shute.mdl
1714GBRC.L. Campbell.mdl photo found
1715GBRW. Malleson.mdl photo found, post #86, group photo from a picnic?
1718GBRH. Hawley.mdl
1719GBRD. Knollys.mdl
1725USA G.E. Stewart.mdl found, post #20
1726USA W.S. Graves.mdl found, post #20

God, do I miss barbu's help! Organizing this list takes a lot more time than I expected.

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:36 am
by AeonTal
Thanks to OneArmedMexican's work it is possible to publish new set ;)
1150WHIY. Yuzefovich.mdl and 1221WHIY. Yuzefovich.mdl
1241DONF.F. Abramov.mdl and 1242DONF.F. Abramov.mdl
1263DONI.A. Poliakov.mdl
1301WH3G. Zhukov.mdl and 1376WH3G. Zhukov.mdl
1350WH3T.I. Sladkov.mdl

But I fear the bulk of portraits in open access is already found.Next step is sieging with heavy weapon still closed former KGB archives ;) Who with me? I'll give you a parabellum(pistol)(joke from Soviet era's writer :)

If serious -there are many typos in names and sometimes it it impossible to understand what name is needed.For example in list -A. Ugo-Ugovets but right Ukke-Ugovets -may be this is difference in pronunciation but sometimes it is a simple typo like Rastogruev instead of Rastorguev.

Something for developers:
I read biographies to be sure that found person is which we needed(often there are very sad -executed,shooted,died in prison,died in misery abroad et cetera)and I found that sizeable part of this commanders wasn't commanding officers at all -some of them was in rear services,chiefs of the stuff and so on.If it is consequence of difficulties of finding in sources appropriate person just tell. Because if your ask to find for example in twenties (or even more) division commanders(which you not yet mention) with fotos for Reds, Southern Whites and Siberian Whites, it will be much easer than finding remaining persons from the list.

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:30 am
by jack54
GREAT LIST---Awesome work..

I have the following ready just play testing...7 red 4 DON


I plan to finish the REDS from post 78 & 80---(then maybe WHI let me know :)

AeonTal --- I have the last image for FFAbramov already posted as
1200 WHI which my be an error both are F.F. Abramov

any way we can find out if this image is DON1241 or 1200WHI

thanks Jack

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:22 am
by Baris
Pronunciation indeed can have differences, some names differ also when other side call them differently. On ex:
Bukeikhanov-bokey han? Related to Kazakh Alash orda? I wonder the picture, it is listed as found.

Thanks all the work OneArmedmexican,AeonTal and Jack have done, it will greatly improve the atmosphere of the game.

GB (1715GBRW. Malleson.mdl) Wilfred Malleson in 1915 during ww1 in imbros Island, but which one? Looks like they are having picnic :D


Edit: Another one 1543GERJ. Bischoff.mdl (Freikorps in Baltics)



Poole, DeWitt Clinton Jr. (1885-1952) educater and spymaster. Responsible for division affairs in Russia but commander? "1709GBR D.C. Poole.mdl"

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:40 am
by AeonTal
Oh,sorry.Almost forgot about famous Grichin(rightly Grishin ;) -Almazov

1142WHIA.N. Grichin-Almazov.mdl and 1199WHIA.N. Grichin-Almazov.mdl and 1291WH3A.N. Grichin-Almazov.mdl

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:41 pm
by OneArmedMexican
Thank you Aeontal, you are continuing to amaze me. :thumbsup:

Things are looking good. As you can see Jack has already finished 11 additional graphic sets, I have another 8 waiting. It seems we will be able to upload the next update before the end of the week. :cool: We are actually getting close to 100 graphic sets in this mod. Personally, I never expected to get this project that far and it would have never happened if Jack and AeonTal hadn't joined me.

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:19 pm
by Silber
Superb work! - now the enemy has not only a name but also a face! A pretty face! could also add some extra ester-egg general to GC ...with your likeness ;-)

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:45 pm
I didn't succeded in doing pictures, even with #34 advices. I'm a very newb with Gimp or other drawing software.